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[MiguelItUp]

I'm a software developer. What the fuck do I need a union for? Safe working conditions? I sit in a comfy chair in an air conditioned office. I have zero reasons to give a union a dime of my money.

It's no surprise that the game industry contains poorly managed studios. I've had my own experiences, and heard many stories first hand. Various reasons and semantics, of course. In this particular situation, they wanted to do so for a reason, and we don't even really know what that reason is. Or those reasons are. So, it's really hard to tell if this is a good or bad thing for them.

But, they felt it was necessary, and they rolled through with it. So, you have to wonder.

Considering how much I've always loved id, I'll hope it's a good thing that works in their favor. But if it doesn't, as unfortunate as that would be, they did it to themselves.

 

[recursive]

This is good for CWA revenue. Probably makes no difference for the employees.

Well now they get to take home less money so they can pay their union dues.

 

[DeepEnigma]

To protect you from crunch. Plus uncle Tony has a family to feed.

Crunch wouldn't be as needed if some employees pulled their weight efficiently.

I've been to many a dev studio where they're at the gym 4 out of the 8 hours that day, or in their little at work social clubs. Then they have to rush to meet a deadline.

Unionization will only make those slack-off times worse IMO.

 

[Oixte]

I'm a software developer. What the fuck do I need a union for? Safe working conditions? I sit in a comfy chair in an air conditioned office. I have zero reasons to give a union a dime of my money.

To protect you from a situation where Microsoft could require you to work 60 hours a week for six months before a release, only to fire you afterwards, not because the game failed but simply to reduce labor costs and give more money to shareholders or spend more on AI.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Crunch wouldn't be as needed if some employees pulled their weight efficiently.

I've been to many a dev studio where they're at the gym 4 out of the 8 hours that day, or in their little at work social clubs. Then they have to rush to meet a deadline.

Unionization will only make those slack-off times worse IMO.

It all revolves around management. With the right management and roadmap, crunching wouldn't be necessary at all. Just have to make realistic deadlines and stick to them. The more serious the studio, the less likely there will be crunching.

 

[Kuranghi]

It depends, unions cost 8% of your pay check. It's a positive if it can give you benefits and salary >8% of your paycheck. Pretty useful in blue collar roles, less useful in competitive roles where you're probably get top market rate salary anyways.

Now, in terms of government roles, unions are bad for tax payers. They hinder progress and efficiency.

I worked government union for about 6 years. Private sector the rest of my career and non-union.

Unions have served a purpose historically, but pretty much everything they fought for that I think was a positive is now state or federal law in the US.

My personal experience with government unions is overall negative, but the more egregious have been things like fighting to protect employment of taxpayer funded employees who are watching porn during work hours or help desk calling themselves to keep their lines busy. These are people who should simply be fired, would in a non-union job, but the unions filed to protect these people at taxpayers expense. I hate that.

Then the more overall issues like "We got you a raise! Hurray! Union strong!... also.... we increased the % of your paycheck that goes to union dues..." that grew to be annoying. I'm good at my job so I opted to go private and non-union and it's been great. The only thing I miss about my union experience is overtime being optional. I've put in a lot more hours, but I'm compensated appropriately. Just sometimes I miss having a standard 40 hour week and no matter how critical the problem or outage might have been, it's not my problem if I don't want it to be.

Thanks guys.

This is sort of what I thought, for me personally these would not be a good thing for my current field (agency based promotional roles in the UK) since the agency has increased my hourly rate by around 8% every financial year anyway and its a heavily performance weighted role where more premium sales means more per-piece commission. Whenever I've smashed targets they rewarded me in kind with an enhanced hourly rate as well.

I will probably transition to another type of sales role soon or entirely different field since this gets old after 7 years.

 

[simpatico]

I started mourning them by the third Doom Dark Ages cutscene. They were pretty cool.

 

[bender]

Crunch wouldn't be as needed if some employees pulled their weight efficiently.

I've been to many a dev studio where they're at the gym 4 out of the 8 hours that day, or in their little at work social clubs. Then they have to rush to meet a deadline.

Unionization will only make those slack-off times worse IMO.

You don't need to tell me about effenciency.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It all revolves around management. With the right management and roadmap, crunching wouldn't be necessary at all. Just have to make realistic deadlines and stick to them. The more serious the studio, the less likely there will be crunching.

This is true, and a union will not improve management in software development one bit. If anything, it will make for management to want to delete themselves or quit or get shuttered. I don't see it bringing efficiency to an already unstable environment more often than not.

To protect you from a situation where Microsoft could require you to work 60 hours a week for six months before a release, only to fire you afterwards, not because the game failed but simply to reduce labor costs and give more money to shareholders or spend more on AI.

Microsoft will just outsource and/or close the studio instead of being strong-armed into losing money. Bet.

 

[FalconPunch]

Shame. Unions should be illegal. It's like communism for employees that people willingly pay dues for.

There is seriously something wrong with the way you think. Of that I'm certain. Anyone who is in a union makes more money on average, has more benefits and more time off than their equivalent counterparts.

Except you're a business owner, arguing against a union makes you a village idiot. That's pretty much all I have to say on this matter.

 

[MiguelItUp]

This is true, and a union will not improve management in software development one bit. If anything, it will make for management to want to delete themselves or quit or get shuttered. I don't see it bringing efficiency to an already unstable environment more often than not.

Very true, but it can protect the employees a bit better. Why did they feel it was necessary? No clue. Yeah, potentially. But that's the thing though, none of us will know exactly why they felt like this was necessary. On the outside, it doesn't really make a lot of sense, especially for a studio like id. But here we are, I guess, lol.

 

[FalconPunch]

I'm a software developer. What the fuck do I need a union for? Safe working conditions? I sit in a comfy chair in an air conditioned office. I have zero reasons to give a union a dime of my money.

So am I, wtf are you talking about? I even work remotely and I'd still join a union if presented with the option. I'm inherently selfish and want as much money as possible. Historically speaking, a union would increase my pay, reduce my work load, increase my time off. Of course I'm joining. In fact, you'd be an idiot not to join.

In an unrelated note, listening to Americans talk nonsense about unions while cheering for their favorite NFL, NBA, NHL teams is peak obtuseness. All of those players are in a union and negotiate CBA's to split revenue and profits in their favor. They see all that and then talk rubbish about unions. The indoctrination is wild.

 

[Oixte]

Unions are a net positive. Just look at the decline of the american middle class or the former industrial areas of England after Thatcher crushed them. If you go to any of these places and say her name someone will most likely punch you.

Whenever I go to the US I see a lot of poor people, people who are unhappy in their face and most likely struggling with mental health issues or people who are homeless.

 

[Topher]

To protect you from a situation where Microsoft could require you to work 60 hours a week for six months before a release, only to fire you afterwards, not because the game failed but simply to reduce labor costs and give more money to shareholders or spend more on AI.

How does this union make Id employees exempt from the next round of layoffs from Microsoft? And no, I don't need a union to "protect" me from having to work long hours. I'm a grown ass man. If I'm hired to do a job and get it done by a target date then I'm going to work my ass off to meet that target. That's how people in the real world operate every day. Why should it be any different for folks working on a video game?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

MS, the first agentic company is deploying their AI Agents as we speak in order to preserve the order and profits

 

[Jinzo Prime]

Fuck.

Edit: Hoping for the best, but anticipating the worst.

 

[Kuranghi]

Crunch wouldn't be as needed if some employees pulled their weight efficiently.

I've been to many a dev studio where they're at the gym 4 out of the 8 hours that day, or in their little at work social clubs. Then they have to rush to meet a deadline.

Unionization will only make those slack-off times worse IMO.

Any job I've ever done, even those I didn't like, I always gave 110% and naturally worked overtime/did research in my spare time. Its probably something related to my mental makeup, but when I work and theres work to be done I work.

Whatever (TV) sales campaigns I've worked on I always hear excuses for why other sales figures aren't as good as mine, this reason and that, I have advantages and they "really really hard" just like I do but they don't get the same opportunities, its all up against them... then I'll hear from several colleagues in other roles who visit their stores and see them across several weeks without them knowing who my friend is (ie unbiased average day monitoring) and without fail they will be standing around not approaching customers consistently and just being lazy fucks

One told me that he can't sell large screens (>65") because "no one here has a big enough house", I say to him I'm selling 85" TVs to cunts with council houses and 4x4m lounges so stfu and pull the finger out

 

[Topher]

So am I, wtf are you talking about? I even work remotely and I'd still join a union if presented with the option. I'm inherently selfish and want as much money as possible. Historically speaking, a union would increase my pay, reduce my work load, increase my time off. Of course I'm joining. In fact, you'd be an idiot not to join.

I think you'd have to be an idiot to not be able to negotiate for yourself. Guess we both think the other is an idiot, huh?

 

[MrA]

I still don't understand if unions are an overall good thing or not, I've never had a job where it would've been relevant and have read about the pro and cons minimally. I imagine it varies whether you're in the UK or US as well, and even then a case by case basis?

In my narrow view the pros seem to be better worker protection/ability to request increase of pay when stagnation happens via striking or the like, but the cons are keeping shit people in a job they don't deserve. I'm sure there were more cons but I can't remember rn.

What else is "bad" about unions? I'm not on either side here I'm asking for objective opinions, "bad" side first since I know less of those.

For example that Rockstar story sounds really bad and unfair, but then wasn't it like genuinely a technicality where they shared data with outsider that was against the terms of their job? Of course they could just be using that as a reason to fire them because they didn't want a union to form, since it was very convenient.

Unions can be uncompromising to the point of destroying the employer they work for,
If a union doesn't want to see profits then they can easily kill a businesses
If they're unquestionable they can easily get corrupt and abusive toward their members

 

[DeepEnigma]

Very true, but it can protect the employees a bit better. Why did they feel it was necessary? No clue. Yeah, potentially. But that's the thing though, none of us will know exactly why they felt like this was necessary. On the outside, it doesn't really make a lot of sense, especially for a studio like id. But here we are, I guess, lol.

I can wager a guess that it's what the uni's are teaching the slacktivists they unleash into the world. Hire too many, perfect storm.

For instance. There was a local eatery where I live. Mom & pop, fresh healthy organic food.

They had too many "blue hairs" working there (a whopping 8-12 employees) that literally were hippies and were high all day at work. Food slapped though.

A few of the uni kids decided to get into their peers ears to unionize (at a local mom & pop, I know retarded). So they stood outside and held stupid signs for a week.

Guess what happened? The place that served the community for well over a decade providing sustainable locally sourced foods and was a darling eatery had to close their doors. Leaving those goofies jobless. This is the shit they're unleashing into the world.

 

[LectureMaster]

That's how people in the real world operate every day. Why should it be any different for folks working on a video game?

 

[FalconPunch]

How does this union make Id employees exempt from the next round of layoffs from Microsoft? And no, I don't need a union to "protect" me from having to work long hours. I'm a grown ass man. If I'm hired to do a job and get it done by a target date then I'm going to work my ass off to meet that target. That's how people in the real world operate every day. Why should it be any different for folks working on a video game?

Translated "why should others get better working conditions than I have? We should all have to suffer like slaves and wear it as some weird badge of honor"

I think you'd have to be an idiot to not be able to negotiate for yourself. Guess we both think the other is an idiot, huh?

Even if you want to advocate for yourself, it's in your best interest that there are lots of unions in the industry you work in. As a result, it pushes base wages higher and gives you a better foundation for starting negotiations. Your arguments make no sense whatsoever.

 

[Topher]

Translated "why should others get better working conditions than I have? We should all have to suffer like slaves and wear it as some weird badge of honor"

No interest in discussing anything with someone who makes up bullshit "translations" of what I said

 

[FalconPunch]

No interest in discussing this with someone who makes up bullshit "translations" of what I said

What a laughable cop out.... Anyway, don't take this the wrong way, I'm not pro union. I'm pro myself. If I own a business, then fuck unions. If I'm employee, then yay unions.

I mean, you're free to argue against your best interests. Americans have been doing that for decades.

 

[Kacho]

Whenever I go to the US I see a lot of poor people

Americans talk nonsense about unions while cheering for their favorite NFL, NBA, NHL teams is peak obtuseness

 

[LectureMaster]

I'm a grown ass man. If I'm hired to do a job and get it done by a target date then I'm going to work my ass off to meet that target. That's how people in the real world operate every day. Why should it be any different for folks working on a video game?

Honestly, this is the common sense and work ethic that many in the young generation lack; instead, they feel entitled to everything. Part of the reason the world is getting worse imo.

 

[DeepEnigma]

'm not pro union.

 

[Walliwallipaloo]

Playing defensive after the last fumble, eh? Seems about right.
Circle the wagons! Batten the hatches! etc etc

 

[DeepEnigma]

Playing defensive after the last fumble, eh? Seems about right.
Circle the wagons! Batten the hatches! etc etc

 

[Poppinfresh]

F*ck Unions and F*ck the employees that support them.

I won't buy another Id game, as long as they are unionized.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Honestly, this is the common sense and work ethic that many in the young generation lack; instead, they feel entitled to everything. Part of the reason the world is getting worse imo.

There were red flags as soon as the whole "everyone is a winner" movement happened, lol.

 

[Oixte]

You're right the US should go back to 60–70 hours a week, no paid vacation, child labor and no sufficient insurance.
That's the dream of Peter Thiel and his buddies.

In the meantime, I'll enjoy my five weeks of paid vacation and when I turn 42 that'll go up to six weeks a year.

 

[LectureMaster]

Playing defensive after the last fumble, eh? Seems about right.
Circle the wagons! Batten the hatches! etc etc

I do really like the dark ages tho, imo an incredible follow up to the insurmountable Eternal.

But I guess I can't predict the next games now.

 

[FalconPunch]

Playing defensive after the last fumble, eh? Seems about right.
Circle the wagons! Batten the hatches! etc etc

Hey but at least they're smart. We have some clowns here who want to divide the heard so they can be picked off 1 by 1. There's a lot of industry leading talent at ID software. Especially on the graphics team.

Better shield themselves by tying themselves to valuable assets rather than get taken out individually.

 

[DeepEnigma]

You're right the US should go back to 60–70 hours a week, no paid vacation, child labor and no sufficient insurance.
That's the dream of Peter Thiel and his buddies.

In the meantime, I'll enjoy my five weeks of paid vacation and when I turn 42 that'll go up to six weeks a year.

Nobody said that strawman you constructed. Good thing there are already labors laws in place.

Especially very strict ones in the very states they want to unionize in (California, etc).

 

[Walliwallipaloo]

You're right the US should go back to 60–70 hours a week, no paid vacation, child labor and no sufficient insurance.
That's the dream of Peter Thiel and his buddies.

In the meantime, I'll enjoy my five weeks of paid vacation and when I turn 42 that'll go up to six weeks a year.

One of these things is not like the other.

 

[FalconPunch]

You're right the US should go back to 60–70 hours a week, no paid vacation, child labor and no sufficient insurance.
That's the dream of Peter Thiel and his buddies.

In the meantime, I'll enjoy my five weeks of paid vacation and when I turn 42 that'll go up to six weeks a year.

I got 4 weeks off this year. Hoping to squirm my way into a position with 6 weeks shortly.

 

[MiguelItUp]

I do really like the dark ages tho, imo an incredible follow up to the insurmountable Eternal.

But I guess I can't predict the next games now.

I personally don't understand the insane hate its receives. It's my least favorite of the new DOOM games, sure. But it's not some absolute turd.

I'm still hoping they bring back Quake, and it has its own vibe that is absolutely nothing like the trajectory of the new DOOM games. I'd much rather have something more grit, grounded, and dark.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I personally don't understand the insane hate its receives. It's my least favorite of the new DOOM games, sure. But it's not some absolute turd.

I'm still hoping they bring back Quake, and it has its own vibe that is absolutely nothing like the trajectory of the new DOOM games. I'd much rather have something more grit, grounded, and dark.

You're going to get a Quake that will now issue recalls to fix.

 

[FalconPunch]

I personally don't understand the insane hate its receives. It's my least favorite of the new DOOM games, sure. But it's not some absolute turd.

I'm still hoping they bring back Quake, and it has its own vibe that is absolutely nothing like the trajectory of the new DOOM games. I'd much rather have something more grit, grounded, and dark.

The artstyle really killed it for me. I just couldn't get behind it. Well that and the new approach to combat design.

 

[MiguelItUp]

The artstyle really killed it for me. I just couldn't get behind it. Well that and the new approach to combat design.

Yeah, I totally feel that. I appreciated the "grittier" aspect of it, but the new design of the demons, the dragon/mech segments, etc. Wasn't too keen of all that. I appreciated them trying to change up the combat, but yeah, in the long run it was a bunch of stuff that felt unnecessary. It was a one and done for me and I never went back, lol.

You're going to get a Quake that will now issue recalls to fix.

We'll see if Quake even happens period, lol.

 

[Kacho]

I personally don't understand the insane hate its receives. It's my least favorite of the new DOOM games, sure. But it's not some absolute turd.

It's fine. I said it before but people will look back on it more fondly in a few years.

"Remember when AAA studios made interesting FPS games with a decent budget?"

It's a lock!

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

NYC Bridge Painters Union! Better go hide my hammer and sickle and gay safety harness.

 

[Topher]

You're right the US should go back to 60–70 hours a week, no paid vacation, child labor and no sufficient insurance.

Said no one

 

[MiguelItUp]

It's fine. I said it before but people will look back on it more fondly in a few years.

"Remember when AAA studios made interesting FPS games with a decent budget?"

It's a lock!

Oh yeah, it's bound to happen. I mean, it already happened with Eternal. There was a LOT of shit being thrown at it for awhile. I was kind of surprised seeing all these people say they loved it now after TDA dropped. Some even more than 2016.

 

[LectureMaster]

I personally don't understand the insane hate its receives. It's my least favorite of the new DOOM games, sure. But it's not some absolute turd.

I'm still hoping they bring back Quake, and it has its own vibe that is absolutely nothing like the trajectory of the new DOOM games. I'd much rather have something more grit, grounded, and dark.

I didn't know people hate it? I think it surprisingly underperformed compared to Eternal.

The cosmic levels are bonkers!

 

[FalconPunch]

Honestly, this is the common sense and work ethic that many in the young generation lack; instead, they feel entitled to everything. Part of the reason the world is getting worse imo.

This might be perhaps the most deluded statement I've seen. We're not in an era where your compensation is directly tied to how hard you work. We're in the era of resource extraction. If you're a capitalist like myself, you believe in optimizing your life. That means putting in the least amount of input and extracting the most amount of output possible.

When Bobby Kotick was writing himself $60 million usd bonuses, was he sitting at the studio writing a single line of COD? Did he sleep at the office figuring out why the collision detection would result in random physics errors?

The only thing that happened is that the young kids nowadays got wise to the game. They saw what was going on and decided they wanted to play the game like that.... Then we have the dinosaurs claiming, "young people don't want to work hard" lmao.

I'm thankful i got into the industry before this AI and outsourcing nonsense started. The amount of young comp sci grads that I've seen struggling to find a position is staggering.

 

[Topher]

It's no surprise that the game industry contains poorly managed studios. I've had my own experiences, and heard many stories first hand. Various reasons and semantics, of course. In this particular situation, they wanted to do so for a reason, and we don't even really know what that reason is. Or those reasons are. So, it's really hard to tell if this is a good or bad thing for them.

But, they felt it was necessary, and they rolled through with it. So, you have to wonder.

Considering how much I've always loved id, I'll hope it's a good thing that works in their favor. But if it doesn't, as unfortunate as that would be, they did it to themselves.

"Union members suggest issues of concern for the group include the instability of the games industry writ large, as well as the necessity of remote work."

So basically they want remote work.

 

[Spukc]

After that fucking last game?

 

[Walliwallipaloo]

So basically they want remote work.

Pathetic man-babies.