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Jeff Kaplan is sick of hearing you demonize games you weren't going to play anyway: 'Shut the fuck up. No one cares.'

I don't get where the notion of not talking about games there's no intention of buying I mean that's like saying there's 1000s of types of vehicles and outside of the single 1 2 or 3 I have for myself and wife, I can't speak of or have an opinion or talk about other cars pros or cons.. Where did this nonsense come from?

It really seems like it's backed by folks that truly genuinely can't stand to hear anything negative about something they like, am I wrong?
 
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The existing IP and lore keeps being expanded on. Check the OG marathon games discord- tons of fan theories, discussion, and praise. Right now a major ARG for 4th map going on that involves Durandal and aliens- loving it as someone who likes the original lore.
Oh well glad to read that's the case, my mistake then.

I've said in other threads they should've:
-Launched with a campaign
-A coop pve mode like firefight
-Fixed the UI and cosmetics up
Oh yeah definetly, that would have helped a ton I believe. But for some reason we just don't get many FPS games that include both SP and MP. Shit sucks lol.

If you're like me who's played all the extraction games this is a sweet middle ground between Tarkov and arc leaning more to Tarkov with so many QoL improvements the genre has needed.
I've only played Arc Raiders. Game was fun for a while and gave me some quite unique experiences when interacting with people, but I don't think the genre is for me.

But going back on topic, I still think it's fine for people to voice their opinion when they don't like a product that's being offered to them. Why shouldn't they be able to do so?

Also I think the people that work on the game should shup up about it because imo it hurts their image. Like that dude the other day calling their customers unemployed and maidenless. I think it's tone-deaf.
 
This is disingenuous.

Tons of devs make games that gamers on paper should like based off what you see spouted online and no one shows up.

Like GTFO is this incredible hardcore co op game that is very high quality without any shitty micro transactions and runs great on various hardware. No one played it but a small handful.

Devs are making art and entertainment. Look at that weird ass game last year where you play as a lighthouse. Not for me but I gotta say it's ballsy to make such a thing.

Then you got the CoD and FIFA side of the spectrum. Zero innovation and yet millions play and have fun every year.
I faintly remember this game from years ago. Googling it, I didnt even know it released in 2021. Totally out of mind. Most people probably dont know about it either. It must of had a tiny marketing budget.

How many people want to play 4 player coop horror shooter? It doesnt have any traditional MP modes. It doesnt even have a SP mode. It's always a 4 player bot/player group game. By the sounds of it, I think the max is 2 bots, so if you want to play as a 4 player team you always need a buddy to join. It's also described on the more difficult side on purpose. Add it up and no doubt a game like this will have low sales.

What they skewed the entire game to is what other shooter games might consider one of their MP modes.
 
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Oh well glad to read that's the case, my mistake then.


Oh yeah definetly, that would have helped a ton I believe. But for some reason we just don't get many FPS games that include both SP and MP. Shit sucks lol.


I've only played Arc Raiders. Game was fun for a while and gave me some quite unique experiences when interacting with people, but I don't think the genre is for me.

But going back on topic, I still think it's fine for people to voice their opinion when they don't like a product that's being offered to them. Why shouldn't they be able to do so?

Also I think the people that work on the game should shup up about it because imo it hurts their image. Like that dude the other day calling their customers unemployed and maidenless. I think it's tone-deaf.
I think the issue boils down to:
-Gamer sees video for game and doesn't like it. Expresses what's wrong like an adult.
-For everyone comment like that you will then get tens of thousands shit posting concord lol , slop, game is trash , without any real reasoning. Just quick hate post and moves on.

So if you're a dev you can't get to the fist kind of poster, and when you eventually do you're likely so sick of the other guys you lump them in together.

I want more and more good games to play, but if we all just keep shitting on everything enmasse we will lose as the players in the long run more than we are now.
 
I don't get where the notion of not talking about games there's no intention of buying I mean that's like saying there's 1000s of types of vehicles and outside of the single 1 2 or 3 I have for myself and wife, I can't speak of or have an opinion or talk about other cars pros or cons.. Where did this nonsense come from?

It really seems like it's backed by folks that truly genuinely can't stand to hear anything negative about something they like, am I wrong?
Exactly.

Just to show how stupid Kaplan's opinion is, if his stance is gamers with no purpose to buy shouldnt have a voice, then why does he care what those customers think? He shouldnt talk about or care what non-buyers think too.
 
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Ehh I would disagree with him. Like, do I need to play Marathon to know that I don't like the art style? Of course not. And as others have said, knowing why people aren't interested in your game is important.

Would my feedback on the moment to moment gunplay in Marathon be useful if I never played the game? No. But who does that? Why is that even something that would need to be pointed out as "nobody cares"?
I doubt he would be so riled up if he was only talking about people who obviously haven't played a game, criticising things you would have to play a game to know. If it was something that truly nobody cared about then it shouldn't have to be addressed in the first place.
Regardless of the qualifiers he gives in his argument, it sounds like he is more against negative feedback in general.
 
Exactly.

Just to show how stupid Kaplan's opinion is, if his stance is gamers with no purpose to buy shouldnt have a voice, then why does he care what those customers think? He shouldnt talk about or care what non-buyers think too.
Exactly, I mean this stuff has been since the dawn of time as a truck guy Ford, ram, Chevy etc... People just shit on things it's litrelly the way of the man, whether it's sports, vehicles, food... I mean I'm a frag head I buy tons of fragrances and the world of fragrances is litrelly the same as gaming you have people that shit on stuff for whatever reason they have.

I just think people need to stop being so sensitive and fragile, things you like is absolutely fine but if someone shits on it either engage and say why they're wrong or just pass by, it all isn't that serious ffs
 
I don't get where the notion of not talking about games there's no intention of buying I mean that's like saying there's 1000s of types of vehicles and outside of the single 1 2 or 3 I have for myself and wife, I can't speak of or have an opinion or talk about other cars pros or cons.. Where did this nonsense come from?

It really seems like it's backed by folks that truly genuinely can't stand to hear anything negative about something they like, am I wrong?
You are wrong.

It's like I pointed out earlier to you:
-Someone stating in an intelligent manner why they wouldn't buy a specific car makes sense. Should be listened to and asked why they prefer what they did select.
-It is not beneficial to have a guy who's like "all Ford products are shit." He's never rode in one, owned one, knows anyone with one, but thinks it's cool to shit on something just cuz.

The second person provides 0 value.

You're a business owner. Someone telling you your business sucks without ANY explanation is meaningless to all involved but it puts a bad stigma to someone who hears or sees it online for example.

We should be shitting on games that are given criticism and chances to improve or delay, and instead they release fucking Concord.
 
You are wrong.

It's like I pointed out earlier to you:
-Someone stating in an intelligent manner why they wouldn't buy a specific car makes sense. Should be listened to and asked why they prefer what they did select.
-It is not beneficial to have a guy who's like "all Ford products are shit." He's never rode in one, owned one, knows anyone with one, but thinks it's cool to shit on something just cuz.

The second person provides 0 value.

You're a business owner. Someone telling you your business sucks without ANY explanation is meaningless to all involved but it puts a bad stigma to someone who hears or sees it online for example.

We should be shitting on games that are given criticism and chances to improve or delay, and instead they release fucking Concord.
But what I'm saying is the 2nd guy that says all Ford products are shit, they're never gonna not be there so it's fruitless to even try and battle.. But maybe they had nothin but bad experiences with Ford so it's their conclusion, they could be more constructive or nicer but it's just how people are.

This Kaplan guy if he's confident in his products or what not, they all should let their products do the talking.. Is my main point.
 
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Exactly, I mean this stuff has been since the dawn of time as a truck guy Ford, ram, Chevy etc... People just shit on things it's litrelly the way of the man, whether it's sports, vehicles, food... I mean I'm a frag head I buy tons of fragrances and the world of fragrances is litrelly the same as gaming you have people that shit on stuff for whatever reason they have.

I just think people need to stop being so sensitive and fragile, things you like is absolutely fine but if someone shits on it either engage and say why they're wrong or just pass by, it all isn't that serious ffs
We live in a time of social media where some peoples jobs is to get feedback online.

Lots of dev teams do this. Daily sea of shit posts gets overwhelming but they can't ignore it because they need to find the actual feedback in the mix.

We get it. You're a big tough macho man and can ignore it. Fine but not everyone is and we aren't going to get better games this way.
 
We live in a time of social media where some peoples jobs is to get feedback online.

Lots of dev teams do this. Daily sea of shit posts gets overwhelming but they can't ignore it because they need to find the actual feedback in the mix.

We get it. You're a big tough macho man and can ignore it. Fine but not everyone is and we aren't going to get better games this way.
It's not about being tough man, why are you saying that I'm simply saying him posting that isn't a good look at all, like it just isn't. And they're not listening to good paying customers alot of the time anyways hell so much of it is catered to eveyeone but the paying customers so it's why people will put them on blast.
 
This is disingenuous.

Tons of devs make games that gamers on paper should like based off what you see spouted online and no one shows up.

Like GTFO is this incredible hardcore co op game that is very high quality without any shitty micro transactions and runs great on various hardware. No one played it but a small handful.

Devs are making art and entertainment. Look at that weird ass game last year where you play as a lighthouse. Not for me but I gotta say it's ballsy to make such a thing.

Then you got the CoD and FIFA side of the spectrum. Zero innovation and yet millions play and have fun every year.
Neither of those games are hundred million dollar cash sinks.

Any "hardcore" game is niche. All game development is a risk in finding its audience, but there is a difference between making a small hardcore niche game and nobody buying it, and spending hundreds of millions on games huge amounts of gamers actively are telling them they do not want.

For GAAS, there is very very few break out successes, almost all with only rare exceptions are almost or much more than a decade old (or are annualised releases of many decade old titles). People play those games like a mix of an addictive drug or a sport. You don't get someone to stop watching Manchester United every weekend by saying "hey I have Shropshire United will you come watch?"…or "I made a new game, it's a lot like football, but a bit different". Very few will switch.

Make something with strong market appeal, that is different and garners actual excitement in its look, feel, presentation and gameplay, and it might stand a chance.

As for non Gaas, same applies. That lighthouse game was very niche, I generally like that sort of game but I dropped it after an hour, it looked great and was different but just wasn't very good. Sadly, as I like the studio. It was also a weird choice for them, they are a studio best know for telling a good story, which is pretty hard to do when you play as a lighthouse with basically no dialogue.

I like that people make the things they want to make that is their vision, and it's very rare they get to do that…but if it's niche in its appeal, budget accordingly. I expect they did budget that accordingly, it just failed to find an audience (like many games).

Games industry has always been a risky industry, and grows ever more risky each year as more and more gamers just get stuck playing the same forever games, or are conditioned to expect games to be "free" either in a sub or f2p, or are up against many thousands of releases (growing ever more every year).

I really think tho that big budget games need to be shown to people far earlier than they are. Hell, use ai to create vertical slice trailers early, work out if people think "holy fuck I want to play that" or "meh, that's gonna bomb" BEFORE spending 6 years and 300 mil on it (also they really shouldn't spend 6 years and 300 mil on it…there needs to be more fiscal responsibility…it's been shown it can be done by e33 or remedy or various other studios)
 
You must play game 5 hours before providing feedback. Got it.

It kind of reminds me of a flat earther I knew once who told me she wouldn't listen to my arguments until I watched the 5 hour documentary she sent me in rebuttal.
 
I think the issue boils down to:
-Gamer sees video for game and doesn't like it. Expresses what's wrong like an adult.
-For everyone comment like that you will then get tens of thousands shit posting concord lol , slop, game is trash , without any real reasoning. Just quick hate post and moves on.

So if you're a dev you can't get to the fist kind of poster, and when you eventually do you're likely so sick of the other guys you lump them in together.

I want more and more good games to play, but if we all just keep shitting on everything enmasse we will lose as the players in the long run more than we are now.
I think you overstimate the user feedback that's delivered through forums and social media.

Honestly I doubt any dev checks that out, and that most of the actual feedback they get is through gameplay metrics: thanks to those they know stuff like the average TTK, the most used weapons, the points of the maps that have the most activity etc and I believe that's way more useful than someone saying on Twitter "I think this gun sucks" because in reality maybe that person just fucking sucks at playing the game, so it's better to trust the metrics.
 
No one is going around trashing games in the puzzle genre. All the flops his chat buddies are sore about were games they expected me to buy. It's like these people really believe the all-powerful chud meme. No. We are your customers. Were your customers. Would still be your customers if head was removed from ass.
 
Really wild statement, especiall the bolded part. You need to hear all your potential customers in order to learn why they don't want to play it. Listening doesn' mean agreeing.

A hamburger restaurant doesn't need to hear from vegetarians to be successful. Feedback from a teetotaler does nothing for a distillery. Defining one's market and tuning out the noise is foundational to developing any product.
 
It's not about being tough man, why are you saying that I'm simply saying him posting that isn't a good look at all, like it just isn't. And they're not listening to good paying customers alot of the time anyways hell so much of it is catered to eveyeone but the paying customers so it's why people will put them on blast.
I don't think there is anyone or anyway you can probably get what he said across to people online without them being pissed off. And if you are you may need to do some self searching in case you do what he's stating.

Kaplan is a respected legendary developer in the industry. His interview on Lex Friedman was a really good listen.

I'm of the mind we as players are doing ourselves disservice to get better games to play if we are bashing everything. Be skeptical, be Leary, don't pre order, post criticisms, etc but when we turn into a mindless " lol flop, slop, lol concord 4" to everything I fear they'll ignore us entirely so we get even worse games.
 
I think also its simply current talking point games like there's so many games I have no interest in but I don't give a fuck and I won't go sit and talk about every failure or garbage game but a new bungie game is in my wheelhouse, or a new shooter etc... New AAA games or like the popular circulating garbage game like ex voto or whatever it is, it's just deserving of some shit lol

I really feel it's simply how we cruise around and talk about products in our hobby.

I think within a hobby of any type anything and everything is fair game to talk about especially a hobby you spend thousands upon thousands of dollars
 
I think you overstimate the user feedback that's delivered through forums and social media.

Honestly I doubt any dev checks that out, and that most of the actual feedback they get is through gameplay metrics: thanks to those they know stuff like the average TTK, the most used weapons, the points of the maps that have the most activity etc and I believe that's way more useful than someone saying on Twitter "I think this gun sucks" because in reality maybe that person just fucking sucks at playing the game, so it's better to trust the metrics.
Idk Bungie for sure at least reads their official discords.

They read online. It's instilled in us now. Their success relies on listening to us but I fear that there's too much noise to get good feedback back nowadays.
 
I don't think there is anyone or anyway you can probably get what he said across to people online without them being pissed off. And if you are you may need to do some self searching in case you do what he's stating.

Kaplan is a respected legendary developer in the industry. His interview on Lex Friedman was a really good listen.

I'm of the mind we as players are doing ourselves disservice to get better games to play if we are bashing everything. Be skeptical, be Leary, don't pre order, post criticisms, etc but when we turn into a mindless " lol flop, slop, lol concord 4" to everything I fear they'll ignore us entirely so we get even worse games.
How did RE9 and Crimson Desert get passed the gates? High profile games can absolutely still make it through a prerelease cycle with good impressions. It's reductive to pretend otherwise and doesn't serve the cause of showing companies why their products are actually failing. Which big, dogpiled game didn't deserve it?
 
Idk Bungie for sure at least reads their official discords.
Yeah discord might be a good place to get feedback from. See? The shit (forums and social media) is separated from an actual source of probably useful feedback (discord). So in the end there's no harm done (I believe at least)

Their success relies on listening to us but I fear that there's too much noise to get good feedback back nowadays.
Nah, their success relies on their hard work and game design skills. Sure user feedback is important and even more so in this kind of game, but imi it's the game's designer vision is what does or kills a game.
 
Hey Kaplan,

I dont care about Legend of California. It already looks like a last gen game. So stop uploading public trailers trying to get me to buy. Just DM people on a mailing list who are interested in the game.

If company's want to blanket promote products to everyone, then the public will blanket back their feedback.
 
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How did RE9 and Crimson Desert get passed the gates? High profile games can absolutely still make it through a prerelease cycle with good impressions. It's reductive to pretend otherwise and doesn't serve the cause of showing companies why their products are actually failing. Which big, dogpiled game didn't deserve it?
What? Both those games had issues:
-People worried it would be like RE7 with whack enemies
-Worried it would run bad after MH Wilds performance
-Crimson desert has had years of folks being skeptical it's a vaporware game or will launch to run like total ass. Too ambitious etc.

These games kept showing more and more plus CD took what 6+ years to make?

And a game that "doesn't deserve it" is just an opinion of what you like or don't. Valid criticism is good - then you get better shit to play. Dog piling serves no one but online trolls to get their jollies.
 
He doesn't want to hear any criticism, so every failure can get sweep under the rug and act like nothing happened, but this videogame industry works like any other one, with capital and that doesn't have and endless supply where you can fail miserably and keep going like nothing happened, so potential consumers telling you the game you're developing is not what they want, it's not something you should take as offense, but something you work towards and try to see if you can win them over, no the other way around, retard
 
Idk Bungie for sure at least reads their official discords.

They read online. It's instilled in us now. Their success relies on listening to us but I fear that there's too much noise to get good feedback back nowadays.
Cant be that hard to get feedback. All companies have to ss skim message boards (public ones and any on their official website), social media, and read any emails they get.

Quickly ignore all the troll messages and ones with zero informative tips and go with the ones where people put in some rational thought. It's really no different than any of us skimming GAF posts where you can quickly eyeball which posts on a page have some detailed feedback and ones that arent. And all of us are just normies doing it in our spare time.

All a company needs is a couple people skimming posts and noting which can be good pointers to feed back to the group and decide if it's something to work on.

You could already see how easy it is to see and add. One of the biggest negative points about Highguard was 3 on 3 and the phases are too boring. They quickly added 5 on 5 and then when the game was on it's way out added a new mode which cuts out the loot part. It was simply a narrowed down attack and defend the fort mode. So the dev was able to easily isolate some key issues skimming launch day posts.
 
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Dude even sits like a little bitch
 
It's a horseshoe for sure. Putting your head in the sand is what leads to completely out of touch games like Concord and Highguard, but also those that trip over themselves to declare games that don't resonate with them like Marathon as "Concord 3" are pretty insufferable too. I see it a lot on here, some of you guys seem to enjoy having something to dunk on far more than you enjoy playing videogames.
 
So, opinions are only valid with purchase??? LOL. I'm sure all devs and publishers would welcome criticism of there game as long as it has customer money behind it.

You could call my game absolute garbage if a million "PAID" customers made that call. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Very dangerous precedent to set.
 
Really wild statement, especiall the bolded part. You need to hear all your potential customers in order to learn why they don't want to play it. Listening doesn' mean agreeing.

isn't that what one of the things a lot of recent failed live service games failed too? 'toxic positivity' everyone just hyping on their fumes and ignoring or just not addressing anything that could be wrong
 
Always with the stupid
Calling GAF out rightly.

If you played a test or demo, or full product, post constructive criticism.

But this site has turned into a 30+ page thread or some shit dunking on a games player count from folks who never played it and never plan to acting like they are morally authorities on the matter.

Insufferable and delusional rants that lead to stagnation and companies only being willing to invest in madden 999 and call of duty 62. You're not getting your whining across to devs at all so you're only making the situation worse.
Wall of text warning:

Developers or any other business for that manner is not entitled to our money or time just for existing. If someone/business makes a shit product, then they made a shit product. If I see some terribly atrocious, activist driven fucking turd like 1348: Ex Voto for example, see the developers acting like smug cunts about it, and then they get immediately humbled just from people not supporting their worthless trash, then guess what? They fucking asked for it. The world isn't here to coddle these people just because they made a video game, and I refuse to sugarcoat my opinions on these parasites just because they MIGHT see some comments on the Internet that might hurt their wittle fee fees.

"Moral authorities"? You can't be serious. Who the fuck are the "delusional moralists" in these situations? The consumers asking for a game that isn't filled with their ideological waste, or the developers calling consumers "incels", "losers", "chuds", "Nazis" or outright fucking condoning murder? The same jackasses who will make every excuse under the sun for their failures instead of looking inward. (Btw, I've noticed only American devs do this. Imagine a respected Japanese director like Sakurai unironically pointing at random TikTok videos as to why one of his games failed).

"Waaah, entitled gamers", "waaah, hate campaign", "waaah, Steam CCU threads", "waaah, meanie head Youtubers", "waaah, Steam discussion boards". How many lame, childish, baby rage tantrums can these grown """men""" and """women""" throw instead of saying, "how do we improve for our next product?" Only fucking gaming has this problem where industry directors and leaders are allowed to PUBLICLY insult their customers, come up with shitty and babyish excuses, and get patted on the fucking head for it.

A good example of how to conduct oneself as a professional in this industry is like what Marek Tyminski did when the LotF reboot failed to be profitable for a long time. Marek asked/polled customers about what they want to see in their next game, try to secure better funding opportunities, ( I heard he's trying to get LotF 2 to release on Steam instead of being stuck with Epic) or even invite industry vets to help on the next project (he invited some Bluepoint devs to join CI Games). That's how an adult handles setbacks, not whine like a little bitch like little Jeffy Poo here.

Literal 12 year old girls have more strength of characters than dumb fucks like Matt Hansen, Kim Belair, Jeff Kaplan, Corrine Busche, every gaming media """journalist""" apparently.

The one thing I'll break bread with you with is if someone is basically stalking the devs on social media and flooding their comments sections or sending them emails/calls with insults, death threats, etc and what have you. I'll agree that's twat behavior, but that's not what's happening here. He's just mad that people aren't mindlessly licking the asses of these devs just because they shit out some performative garbage with terrible stories, intentionally ugly characters (always female, never male btw), shoddy at best gameplay, and half-assed optimization. Sorry, but I'll never be sorry for not mincing my words when it comes to calling turds for what they are.

Btw, dumbass normies are to blame for sportsball manure and COD selling millions every year, not Gaf users. I don't think the majority here fall into that category. There was poll on Gaf not that long ago where sports was at a 0%, shooters at 5.8%, and RPGs being the dominant genre favorite at 48.8%. Not the most scientifically rigorous poll but it tracks that core gamers are on sites like Neogaf while your average normie doesn't know or care about gaming outside of their annual trough slop.

TLDR: Devs need to act like adults, stop making retarded excuses, and do like Kratos says; "be better". Stop blaming everything under the Sun except themselves.

Rant over.
wipe channel 9 GIF by Married At First Sight Australia
 
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The cultural divide between the privileged "dream job" class who hate the idea of trying to do their job well and the ordinary person who feels "entitled" to good games when handing over their money is like a vast chasm that could contain multiple universes at this point
 
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I thought us core-gamers were irrelevant, that they didn't need or want us ...that we were powerless, insignificant, incels. 🤔

This whole "message" that gamers are just hateful and toxic, that some parts of the industry try to push, is so retarded that it hurts my brain.

When I read GAF I seldom see true hate, just passionate gamers that desperately want good games. If you filter out the corporate fanboys and read between the lines - there's tons of genuine sadness and love to be found for this wonderful hobby. And as they say "All is fair in love and war".

Instead of complaining about what's happening maybe they should ask themselves why it's happening.

But sure, it would probably be nice if we just spread them ass-cheeks and hand over our money while we sing kumbaya as you enshitten our games.

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