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COMICS! December |OT| Santa is a superheo, right?

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Ethan van Sciver has mentioned this numerous times in interviews. Jon Hickman has lamented the lack of substantial runs in modern comics.

Eric Stephenson of Image Comics SPITS HOT FIRE!

In its 20 years in the industry, Image Comics has transitioned from a beginning that was a bold leap into the unknown of mass published, creator-owned comics to one of the biggest hotbeds in the industry for top notch, progressive comic book storytelling. In the current state of the industry, is it feasible for an exercise like Image to come together?

Stephenson: Honestly, I don’t see how it could.

I mean, you look at Marvel, or at what’s happening with DC’s New 52 – it’s an anomaly for someone to stay on anything for very long. It’s like, they launch Wolverine and The X-Men with Chris Bachalo and then it’s Nick Bradshaw for a couple issues. Carlos Pacheco does a few issues of Uncanny X-Men and then it’s Greg Land. Who knows who will be doing those books this time next year? I don’t know if it’s done by design, but it has effectively devalued artists to the point that they’re more or less interchangeable.

I re-read Grant Morrison’s run on New X-Men recently, and it was kind of depressing. He starts off so strong with Frank Quitely and they have this great thing going, and then it just turns into musical chairs. Regardless of the talent involved – and I really admire some of the other artists on those comics – I ultimately felt it undermined what Grant was doing. You look at wonderful, classic pieces of work like the Dark Phoenix Saga or what Frank Miller and Klaus Janson did on Daredevil – Alan Moore’s work with Dave Gibbons on Watchmen or with Rick Veitch, Steve Bisssette and John Totleben on Swamp Thing or the Lee/Kirby FF books – they’re not pock-mocked by rotating artists.

And everything over there is like that now. Comic book artists in particular are treated more as commercial artists than storytellers. They might as well be doing greeting cards for all the impact they’re allowed to have these days.
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It's a long and great interview and he talks about your funnybook digital files too. Unfortunately I do not agree with him on digital pricing. No print cost = selling digital copies is free money!
 
I re-read Grant Morrison’s run on New X-Men recently, and it was kind of depressing. He starts off so strong with Frank Quitely and they have this great thing going, and then it just turns into musical chairs. Regardless of the talent involved – and I really admire some of the other artists on those comics – I ultimately felt it undermined what Grant was doing. You look at wonderful, classic pieces of work like the Dark Phoenix Saga or what Frank Miller and Klaus Janson did on Daredevil – Alan Moore’s work with Dave Gibbons on Watchmen or with Rick Veitch, Steve Bisssette and John Totleben on Swamp Thing or the Lee/Kirby FF books – they’re not pock-mocked by rotating artists.
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This has been hampering Grant Morrison's Batman stuff too. DC can't even give/get him a single artist for a single arc, let alone whole runs.
 
The Take Out Bandit said:
It's a long and great interview and he talks about your funnybook digital files too. Unfortunately I do not agree with him on digital pricing. No print cost = selling digital copies is free money!
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That's fucking hilarious considering Image's terrible payout structure means these "consistent" runs are done by great writers stuck with throngs of Not-Yet-Amazing artists who are willing to work months without getting paid for their work.

Yeah, great, Morning Glories will keep the same creative team forever. God help us all.

Thumbs up, Eric. You're truly a shining beacon in this industry. People rich enough to pay artists before getting paid themselves (BKV, Millar) can put out books with top quality art but those who can't are stuck with whoever they can get.

And this horseshit about artists being interchangable? What a load. Comic art has simply gotten more complex and less profitable. DealWithIt.gif

Would I love to have seen Quitely draw all of New X-Men? Who wouldn't? But to think that an artist of that detail and caliber can draw 264 pages a year PLUS covers? That's just insane. That's the absolute craziest thing I've ever heard.

I'd definitely call out Silvestri not even being able to get through a storyline of Incredible Hulk, but an editorially organized artist rotation built around segmented storylines? Grow up, Eric.

If you ever think you're doing things the right way, do me a favor and solicit a new issue of Phonogram. I'll wait.
 
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
Artists only doing a few issues at a time isn't totally DC and Marvel's fault, it's also the result of decades of "superstar" artists not being able to do a monthly comic.
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Eh, they have crazy talented people that can hit deadlines; they just ignore or put them on crap titles.

Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
The last time Grant Morrison had a consistent artist on an extended run was Howard Porter so be careful what you wish for.
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That's the price you pay. You can get it on time, or you can get fill ins every second / third issue.

I'll take the guy who can get it on time every time.
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
I'll wish for it all the live long day. Porter rocked the shit out of JLA. Also he wasn't consistent. Fill in artists for The Key storyline among others.
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He did the vast majority of them. The fill in artist seems to be a lost art nowadays too.

I disagree that people can't do anything on time because the art is more complex. It's because the mindset has changed. Up until about the early 70s turning in comic art late just wasn't an option. There was simply no alternative to doing it on time. When you have that mindset you get a lot more done.
 
I'm so fucking SICK of fill-ins, myself. They couldn't even get Carlos Pacheco to do TWO ISSUES OF UNCANNY X-MEN without needing TWO MORE ARTISTS to draw it. I'm ok with the book coming out only once a month if that means I get Jerome Opena and Alan Davis and Chris Bachalo and Davia Aja and all the other amazing artists Marvel has but can't seem to consistently stay on a book for more then 3-5 issues at a time because they just have to double ship everything.

That said, I'm fine with artists changing every story arc. It can give every story its own feel, its own tone, its own pacing. I just hate the mid-story arc changes like Brooks to Opena in UXF, or Quitely to FUCKING AWFULNESS for two issues, then back to Quitely for the finish. Is the deadline really that important that you want to crap out some issues, forever marring the comics for all future generations? Thank God they found a groove in the second half and just let one artist do each story arc.

I also respect the hell out of whoever is editing PunisherMAX. Steve Dillion was sick and drawing enough book(because he's a fast penciller), and instead of getting another artist mid- arc for the finale of the excellent Bullseye story, they delayed it for a good 6 months and gave him time to recover. Same thing with Bryan Hitch with the Ultimates or Frank Quitely on All-Star Superman. Yeah, it takes awhile for it to hit the stands, but the payoff is worth it. I've got the Ultimates Omnibus and Absolute All-Star Superman on my bookshelf, and they just look incredible. You never have to worry about deadlines, delays, or a change/rushed artists.

I mean...at some point, I get the need for the deadlines. But at the same time, I really fucking don't. If you're in the business to make comics, you should be trying to make them the best you can, not rushing them out the door to sell to 100,000 or so fucks still reading these things and think they'll just accept anything as long as they get their fix on time.
 
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
He did the vast majority of them. The fill in artist seems to be a lost art nowadays too.

I disagree that people can't do anything on time because the art is more complex. It's because the mindset has changed. Up until about the early 70s turning in comic art late just wasn't an option. There was simply no alternative to doing it on time. When you have that mindset you get a lot more done.
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And you also cut corners. You can't have both. Frank Quitely would not have had the space to evolve into Frank Quitely in the 70s.

ViewtifulJC said:
I'm so fucking SICK of fill-ins, myself. They couldn't even get Carlos Pacheco to do TWO ISSUES OF UNCANNY X-MEN without needing TWO MORE ARTISTS to draw it. I'm ok with the book coming out only once a month if that means I get Jerome Opena and Alan Davis and Chris Bachalo and Davia Aja and all the other amazing artists Marvel has but can't seem to consistently stay on a book for more then 3-5 issues at a time because they just have to double ship everything.

That said, I'm fine with artists changing every story arc. It can give every story its own feel, its own tone, its own pacing. I just hate the mid-story arc changes like Brooks to Opena in UXF, or Quitely to FUCKING AWFULNESS for two issues, then back to Quitely for the finish. Is the deadline really that important that you want to crap out some issues, forever marring the comics for all future generations? Thank God they found a groove in the second half and just let one artist do each story arc.

I also respect the hell out of whoever is editing PunisherMAX. Steve Dillion was sick and drawing enough book(because he's a fast penciller), and instead of getting another artist mid- arc for the finale of the excellent Bullseye story, they delayed it for a good 6 months and gave him time to recover. Same thing with Bryan Hitch with the Ultimates or Frank Quitely on All-Star Superman. Yeah, it takes awhile for it to hit the stands, but the payoff is worth it. I've got the Ultimates Omnibus and Absolute All-Star Superman on my bookshelf, and they just look incredible. You never have to worry about deadlines, delays, or a change/rushed artists.

I mean...at some point, I get the need for the deadlines. But at the same time, I really fucking don't. If you're in the business to make comics, you should be trying to make them the best you can, not rushing them out the door to sell to 100,000 or so fucks still reading these things and think they'll just accept anything as long as they get their fix on time.
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More issues = more money. Comics companies are losing money right and left. C'est la guerre.
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
Would I love to have seen Quitely draw all of New X-Men? Who wouldn't? But to think that an artist of that detail and caliber can draw 264 pages a year PLUS covers? That's just insane. That's the absolute craziest thing I've ever heard.
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How hard could it be?

n4uB3.jpg


+

g6973m.jpg


There, all done. ;)
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
And you also cut corners. You can't have both. Frank Quitely would not have had the space to evolve into Frank Quitely in the 70s.
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Learning how to deal with deadlines is part of doing comic books. Many, many people have evolved as artists while also learning how to deal with deadlines. Even guys like Neal Adams and Barry Windsor Smith who were pretty infamous back in the day for being behind schedule are nothing compared to Jim Lee or Frank Quitely.
 
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
Learning how to deal with deadlines is part of doing comic books.
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I disagree. I'd rather they stick with an artist and delay the books, but that's not financially feasible now except in very rare cases. There's no way around it. Image (ironically enough) created a new artistic standard. Unfortunately since then, the market shrank by like 7/8ths. There's no going back to the old days. The 150,000 regular comic book readers left love detailed and complicated art. Unless you're Doug Mahnke (truly THE gold standard hero of monthly comic books in this modern era) you can't do it on a regular schedule. And Marvel can't afford to publish a tentpole book only 10 times a year.
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
I disagree. I'd rather they stick with an artist and delay the books, but that's not financially feasible now except in very rare cases. There's no way around it. Image (ironically enough) created a new artistic standard. Unfortunately since then, the market shrank by like 7/8ths. There's no going back to the old days. The 150,000 regular comic book readers left love detailed and complicated art. Unless you're Doug Mahnke (truly THE gold standard hero of monthly comic books in this modern era) you can't do it on a regular schedule. And Marvel can't afford to publish a tentpole book only 10 times a year.
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Do you have anything to back this up? Comic book sales don't really change when a book goes from a more detailed artist to a less detailed artist or vice versa. Jim Lee (who I will give you is a detailed artist) is the only artist left that makes a substantial impact on a book's sales. John Romita jr was doing one of the top selling books in all of comics earlier this year. Greg Capullo is doing the number one book right now and he knows when to cut detail in order to get the book out on time because he spent years doing it on Spawn.
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
That's fucking hilarious considering Image's terrible payout structure means these "consistent" runs are done by great writers stuck with throngs of Not-Yet-Amazing artists who are willing to work months without getting paid for their work.
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How does the pay structure at Image work ? I thought artists got their money first regardless how big name the writer is on a project. I was under the impression Image does not offer page rates on the creator owned books ? How much is their cut exactly ?
 
It's either get constantly relayed monthly books or get fill-in/rotating artists. Personally I like my comics coming out on a schedule. When stuff gets delayed I tend to lose interest if the current arc isn't completely gripping.
 
ViewtifulJC said:
They're reprinting Morrison's New X-Men Omnibus

ALL IS RIGHT IN THE WORLD MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY
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I have the original omnibus.

More than anything else that particular collection highlights exactly how a good run can be potholed by a series of rushed, or untalented and rushed fill-in artists.

Some of those books appear to have been drawn with the artist's elbow.
 
Dude kinda contradicts himself here:

Alan Moore’s work with Dave Gibbons on Watchmen or with Rick Veitch, Steve Bisssette and John Totleben on Swamp Thing
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That was a run with rotating artists, often within the same arc. They kept to a house style for the most part though. Same with Sandman, such inconsistent art, but I don't feel it hurts the run too much.

I think the key with modern comics is to plan where the artist rotations will be. The three-issue rotating artists of Batman and Robin worked wonderfully I thought, and books where artists trade out arcs with each other (like La Fuente and Pichelli on USM last year) are fine too.
 
Nesotenso said:
How does the pay structure at Image work ? I thought artists got their money first regardless how big name the writer is on a project. I was under the impression Image does not offer page rates on the creator owned books ? How much is their cut exactly ?
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No one gets paid until the books are released and the money comes in from them. So for artists especially they get paid about seven months after they do the work. Cool, right!!!

Anyway, HOISTED ON MY OWN PETARD. Two fill in artists for the new Wolverine & The X-Men. One's Duncan Rouleau so it's not terrible. But still.
 
I don't mind rotating artists on a series, though to me the ideal scenario there is either A) two artists with similar styles providing a uniform consistent look, or B) two artists with wildly divergent styles, each telling the type of story that suits their particular style. Putting someone who's big on action set pieces onto a book that's about deep character interactions is just not gonna work, and vice versa. And let these guys finish their story arcs out before handing off to the other guy, no switching right in the middle.

But I definitely have a problem with scenarios where an artist isn't able to make deadline, so one or more last-minute guest artists step in to finish pages, or provide an entire issue of material because the headliner can't get his sh*t together well enough to hit those milestones. Few things in comics piss me off more.

So I guess I'm saying that rotating artists is okay provided they're not handing off each issue like it's a tag team match.
 
Spike Spiegel said:
I don't mind rotating artists on a series, though to me the ideal scenario there is either A) two artists with similar styles providing a uniform consistent look, or B) two artists with wildly divergent styles, each telling the type of story that suits their particular style. Putting someone who's big on action set pieces onto a book that's about deep character interactions is just not gonna work, and vice versa. And let these guys finish their story arcs out before handing off to the other guy, no switching right in the middle.

But I definitely have a problem with scenarios where an artist isn't able to make deadline, so one or more last-minute guest artists step in to finish pages, or provide an entire issue of material because the headliner can't get his sh*t together well enough to hit those milestones. Few things in comics piss me off more.

So I guess I'm saying that rotating artists is okay provided they're not handing off each issue like it's a tag team match.
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Totally agreed.
 
Great week for comics. Spoiler Alert: Leviathan Strikes is MOTHERFUCKING NUTS. BALLS TO THE WALL FUCKING INSANE. SHIT JUST GOT FUCKING REAL, FORGET ABOUT THAT PIECE OF SHIT BATMAN INC #8 THIS IS THE REAL DEAL HOLY SHIT.
 
krypt0nian said:
The Batwoman book is showing us how to do rotating art teams correctly.
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You mean by having your series delayed for up to eight months by editorial, enabling your amazing-yet-notoriously-slow lead artist to have enough time to complete his first story arc without the usual delays or filler?


EDIT: Also, what Viewt said. Marcos Martin and Paolo Rivera on DD is a perfect example of my scenario A.
 
Spike Spiegel said:
You mean by having your series delayed for up to eight months by editorial, enabling your amazing-yet-notoriously-slow lead artist to have enough time to complete his first story arc without the usual delays or filler?


EDIT: Also, what Viewt said. Marcos Martin and Paolo Rivera on DD is a perfect example of my scenario A.
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That is absolutely the Dream Scenario.

Amazing Spider-Man has also done this exceptionally.
 
Even during the BND era, when the quality of the stories go up and down like a yo-yo, we got to see so many talented artists. Bachalo, Rios, Martin, Rivera, Romita Jr, Lark, Jimenez, Canete, Weeks, Fiamura, Paulido. There's not a single comic book from the Big Two with a line-up that good this past decade.

I'm pissed about those Bachalo fill-ins on issue #3 though. What the fuck, man :(
 
Spike Spiegel said:
You mean by having your series delayed for up to eight months by editorial, enabling your amazing-yet-notoriously-slow lead artist to have enough time to complete his first story arc without the usual delays or filler?


EDIT: Also, what Viewt said. Marcos Martin and Paolo Rivera on DD is a perfect example of my scenario A.
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No by having complementary teams produce work on time. We weren't talking about your hatred for DC editorial.
 
Picked up new issue of Avengers at the store. Read first page. Put back on shelf.

Bendis cannot stop his shit of making everyone banter in the same voice, even Osborn and Madame Hydra.

Fuck this.
 
krypt0nian said:
Picked up new issue of Avengers at the store. Read first page. Put down.

Bendis cannot stop his shit of making everyone banter in the same voice, even Osborn and Madame Hydra.

Fuck this.
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I read the preview on CBR for shits and giggles, he spends the first two pages of his $3.99, 20 page book on a stupid joke with all the characters sounding exactly the same.

I'm completely puzzled by his popularity and can't wait for him to ditch the Avengers.
 
ViewtifulJC said:
I read the preview on CBR for shits and giggles, he spends the first two pages of his $3.99, 20 page book on a stupid joke with all the characters sounding exactly the same.

I'm completely puzzled by his popularity and can't wait for him to ditch the Avengers.
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I'm just glad I checked it out before I gave them money.


Ahhhhhh Amazing Spidey So GuD!11!!
 
krypt0nian said:
Picked up new issue of Avengers at the store. Read first page. Put back on shelf.

Bendis cannot stop his shit of making everyone banter in the same voice, even Osborn and Madame Hydra.

Fuck this.
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Witty banter forever.

I hate revolving artists like Marvel does, it's all so they can ship 16 books a year instead of 12 or less if an artist is slow. I'd rather have 12 issues of Epting on FF over a year than 12 issues in 8 months with Epting on less than half, mixed with three other artists.
 
krypt0nian said:
No by having complementary teams produce work on time. We weren't talking about your hatred for DC editorial.
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Right. So you think JH Williams III would still be producing this level of work, and in timely fashion, if he had the same amount of lead time as other "New 52" artists who got their gigs two months in advance, and hadn't been working on Batwoman interiors one year ago when the book was still set for early 2011?
 
Spike Spiegel said:
Right. So you think JH Williams III would still be producing this level of work, and in timely fashion, if he had the same amount of lead time as other "New 52" artists who got their gigs two months in advance, and hadn't been working on Batwoman interiors one year ago when the book was still set for early 2011?
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Like others that had more lead time on their books (Swamp Thing, etc.) who cares? That wasn't what the conversation was until you brought your obsession with DC editorial into it.

You speak in hypotheticals and live in the past too much. The book is amazing.
 
Oh. My. God. Batman Leviathan is out today? Why did no one tell me?! It's going to be excellent to have more good Batman to read. I was a little sad only having one Bat book.

Oh shit there's a lot of books this week. I want

Batman 4
Batman Leviathan
Justice League
Fables

Spider-Man
Avengers
Dare Devil
Fantastic Four
Venom
Wolverine and the X-Men

Ghostbusters 2 Reprint
Ghostbusters 4
TMNT

I think today will be the day I may have to choose. Blarg.
 
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