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[neutralgamer02]

Michael Vick sucked in 2003/2004. You can't have it both ways. If you're going to bash Hillis for being 'average' then you can't jump on the athlete argument. Vick sucked as a QB in Atlanta.

If you're talking about sales sure but you were talking about stats so phooey on you.

Spoiler

Your avatar is lolcats

Michael Vick didn't suck in 2004. He almost made it to the SuperBowl. How does that equal suck?

Also, how is taking you team to 2 playoff trips in 6 years @ atl = average or suck?

He was definitely a different type of quarterback, but he didn't suck.

 

[$hawty]

Michael Vick sucked in 2003/2004. You can't have it both ways. If you're going to bash Hillis for being 'average' then you can't jump on the athlete argument. Vick sucked as a QB in Atlanta.

If you're talking about sales sure but you were talking about stats so phooey on you.

Spoiler

Your avatar is lolcats

The fuck? Be objective please.

 

[Puddles]

Peyton Hillis was the waiver wire pick up of the year that season, so that probably boosted his popularity a bit.

 

[Dude Abides]

Michael Vick didn't suck in 2004. He almost made it to the SuperBowl. How does that equal suck?

Also, how is taking you team to 2 playoff trips in 6 years @ atl = average or suck?

He was definitely a different type of quarterback, but he didn't suck.

Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl.

Vick doesn't suck. He's now improved to solidly mediocre.

 

[DY_nasty]

Peyton Hillis was the waiver wire pick up of the year that season, so that probably boosted his popularity a bit.

Compare him to Vick.

Say what you want about him as a win/loss QB or his accuracy or his attitude or whatever - he was ridiculously exciting.

Peyton Hillis is Peyton Hillis, the above average running back who is white.

 

[Derrick01]

Mayweather mad that Asian is popular:

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/daily-take/201202/floyd-mayweather-plays-race-card-jeremy-lin



Oh Mayweather!

Every time this guy opens his mouth it makes me want Pacquiao to knock his fucking teeth down his throat a little more.

 

[Puddles]

Compare him to Vick.

Say what you want about him as a win/loss QB or his accuracy or his attitude or whatever - he was ridiculously exciting.

Peyton Hillis is Peyton Hillis, the above average running back who is white.

Hillis was a massive tank of a back who plowed people over. That's pretty exciting to see.

 

[LJ11]

Michael Vick didn't suck in 2004. He almost made it to the SuperBowl. How does that equal suck?

Also, how is taking you team to 2 playoff trips in 6 years @ atl = average or suck?

He was definitely a different type of quarterback, but he didn't suck.

LOLOLOL

Tebow was two games away from the SB, must be good. Stop equating team success with individual success. '04 Vick the QB was a turd, the runner was great.

 

[Mattlikewhoa]

This thread is about that guy who's played like 180 minutes of ball and people are going nuts...right?

 

[justjohn]

This thread is about that guy who's played like 180 minutes of ball and people are going nuts...right?

the next michael jordan

 

[Red Blaster]

This thread is about that guy who's played like 180 minutes of ball and people are going nuts...right?

He's like a white Larry Bird

 

[Dragon]

Michael Vick didn't suck in 2004. He almost made it to the SuperBowl. How does that equal suck?

Also, how is taking you team to 2 playoff trips in 6 years @ atl = average or suck?

He was definitely a different type of quarterback, but he didn't suck.

Are you on crack?

We're evaluating a player individually, not talking about the team at all. I've acknowledged Hillis played for the Browns, a shitty team. Who cares that Falcons team 'almost' made the Super Bowl? The guy had 14 TD and 12 INT and a QB rating of 78. By all objective measures, even in that time's less pass heavy NFL, those are below average QB numbers. So yeah I can say he sucked. Why do you say he didn't suck?

Oh another reason? He had 16 fumbles that year. 16!!! Oh yeah the guy was a dynamic runner if you ignore the fact he was a turnover machine.

Compare him to Vick.

Say what you want about him as a win/loss QB or his accuracy or his attitude or whatever - he was ridiculously exciting.

Peyton Hillis is Peyton Hillis, the above average running back who is white.

Again. You were talking about stats. You can't move the argument when you realize it doesn't work anymore.

The fuck? Be objective please.

1. No one's objective.
2. If you're going to insert yourself into the debate, contribute something.
3. I don't know what to put here.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

They played the previous friday night though. Back to backs are hard.

Minny also played the night before, and blew their lead versus NYK.

Its more than just not passing the test of being guarded by Rubio.

I knew someone would bring up being tired. Who cares? Every single player in the NBA, and especially starters, have to deal with fatigue. Why can't people just say that someone had a bad game.

Wolves gave that game away, though that has much more to do with their lack of any outside shooting than their tiredness

 

[Gully State]

I knew someone would bring up being tired. Who cares? Every single player in the NBA, and especially starters, have to deal with fatigue. Why can't people just say that someone had a bad game.

Wolves gave that game away, though that has much more to do with their lack of any outside shooting than their tiredness

He had a bad game and fatigue played a factor (just as much as Rubio's defense). It was a tale of two halves though as he was playing well the first half.

 

[jordan0386]

I knew someone would bring up being tired. Who cares? Every single player in the NBA, and especially starters, have to deal with fatigue. Why can't people just say that someone had a bad game.

Wolves gave that game away, though that has much more to do with their lack of any outside shooting than their tiredness

He did have a bad game. Based on his high standards right now. But to me, it was more due to fatigue, and as we know now injury, rather than Rubio locking him up. Which played some role in it, course.

Rubio was his first real test on defense and he was outplayed by him, so I just think people should cool down.

You tried to dismiss his talents. He's practically just as good as Rubio right now.

 

[Baby Milo]

Rubio was his first real test on defense and he was outplayed by him, .

yes he was outplayed by a guy who shot the same exact percentage as him and coughed the ball up at the end of the game two times to hand the game over to the knicks

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

He did have a bad game. Based on his high standards right now. But to me, it was more due to fatigue, and as we know now injury, rather than Rubio locking him up. Which played some role in it, course.

You tried to dismiss his talents. He's practically just as good as Rubio right now.

I will say straight up that I am a Wolves fan, but no he is not practically as good as Rubio right now. Call me back in 20 games and see how he does. Rubio leads the league in steals, top 5 in assists, plays great defense, has elite court vision, is a great rebounding PG, and is a bad shooter. Lin is a better shooter and better at driving, and has done this in a very concentrated stretch of games.

Lin is going to be a good NBA player and a starting PG for years to come, I think. I'm not discrediting his stretch of games, I just think things should be put into perspective. He has good court vision, is good at driving, and seems to have a nice shot. I'll be interested to see if he can keep his FG% up, though. To continue the Rubio comparison, Rubio was shooting close to 60% for his first 6-7 games in the NBA, just as Lin has been during his run (of course he was shooting no where near the volume of Lin). His career 3 pt% is around 20%.

yes he was outplayed by a guy who shot the same exact percentage as him and coughed the ball up at the end of the game two times to hand the game over to the knicks

Certainly screwed up at the end there but it shouldn't have even been close. It was the Wolves going like 3 for 20 with a 3 PG linup in the 4th that cost them this game. Outside of those two TO's he played a pretty great game.

And no I don't buy into crunchtime performance or clutchness or any of that crap.

 

[neutralgamer02]

Are you on crack?

We're evaluating a player individually, not talking about the team at all. I've acknowledged Hillis played for the Browns, a shitty team. Who cares that Falcons team 'almost' made the Super Bowl? The guy had 14 TD and 12 INT and a QB rating of 78. By all objective measures, even in that time's less pass heavy NFL, those are below average QB numbers. So yeah I can say he sucked. Why do you say he didn't suck?

Oh another reason? He had 16 fumbles that year. 16!!! Oh yeah the guy was a dynamic runner if you ignore the fact he was a turnover machine.

Again, I already said Vick was a different type of quarterback. He was a dynamic run first type of quarterback at Atlanta. I am judging him as a total player. You are judging him compared to pure quarterbacks. Of course he is average when you do that. Taken as a whole he was a good player at what he was suppose to do and that is win games.

P.S. Of course you turn it over a lot when you run a lot as a qb. Who cares as long as you win.

 

[Dragon]

Again, I already said Vick was a different type of quarterback. He was a dynamic run first type of quarterback at Atlanta. I am judging him as a total player. You are judging him compared to pure quarterbacks. Of course he is average when you do that. Taken as a whole he was a good player at what he was suppose to do and that is win games.

Even adding in his rushing yards does nothing to dissuade me from saying that the sheer amount of turnovers he committed in 2004 puts him at the bottom of the list at the quarterback position. You haven't said anything that seems to disagree with this either. Your arguments seem to boil down to: "he's not a prototypical quarterback so it's okay that he turns the ball over a lot. Oh and he wins."

Also, of course you turn it over a lot when you run a lot as a qb.

A reason not to run the ball a lot as a QB. Especially when you don't tuck it when you run and hold it out from your body.

Who cares as long as you win.

Again. What does this have to do with rating his individual performance? I'm confounded that the "Just winz" argument can go from Vick/Young to Tebow and continue to be used as a justification for playing poorly.

 

[captmcblack]

I pretty much discount TOs in a Mike D'Antoni system. The PG is asked - and encouraged - to utilize his court vision to be aggressive and either make quick passing decisions or quick driving/pnr decisions to continually break the defense down. That's going to result in "high" TOs. Even Steve Nash averages 3TOs a game, and in his MVP seasons averaged close to 4. Excellent ballhandlers like Nash, LBJ, Rondo and Deron Williams are averaging 3 to 4 a game. Generally speaking, if you're going to have the ball in your hands most of the time and you're a playmaker, you're going to turn it over.

So yeah, I am discounting those TOs as a stat to cut Lin down with. He made so many other excellent plays as a result of his distribution in this system, and they haven't affected his ability to control the game as a starter. In his "bad game" against the Pups, he had 20 and 10 against an equally excellent/precocious young PG (who is a very good defender) in Rubio, did it against a defense which trapped/gooned the shit out of him like the LAL defense, and did it with tired legs.

He'll be good again tonight. Watch.

 

[marathonfool]

Shout out to Knick Fans. They always knew Lin was a winner.

 

[DY_nasty]

Stats are just one part of it.

But you're coming off like ....you got issues anyway. If you want to compare hillis and vick then go ahead and look like a clown.

 

[Dragon]

Stats are just one part of it.

They're the part you mentioned.

But you're coming off like ....you got issues anyway. If you want to compare hillis and vick then go ahead and look like a clown.

What issues would those be? If you're going for the personal attack at least be forthright instead of vague.

 

[Gully State]

I pretty much discount TOs in a Mike D'Antoni system. The PG is asked - and encouraged - to utilize his court vision to be aggressive and either make quick passing decisions or quick driving/pnr decisions to continually break the defense down. That's going to result in "high" TOs. Even Steve Nash averages 3TOs a game, and in his MVP seasons averaged close to 4. Excellent ballhandlers like Nash, LBJ, Rondo and Deron Williams are averaging 3 to 4 a game. Generally speaking, if you're going to have the ball in your hands most of the time and you're a playmaker, you're going to turn it over.

So yeah, I am discounting those TOs as a stat to cut Lin down with. He made so many other excellent plays as a result of his distribution in this system, and they haven't affected his ability to control the game as a starter. In his "bad game" against the Pups, he had 20 and 10 against an equally excellent/precocious young PG (who is a very good defender) in Rubio, did it against a defense which trapped/gooned the shit out of him like the LAL defense, and did it with tired legs.

He'll be good again tonight. Watch.

Yeah, people forget that Nash averages a high amount of turnovers. I can't count how many times he would have like a 8-10 TO game.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

I pretty much discount TOs in a Mike D'Antoni system. The PG is asked - and encouraged - to utilize his court vision to be aggressive and either make quick passing decisions or quick driving/pnr decisions to continually break the defense down. That's going to result in "high" TOs. Even Steve Nash averages 3TOs a game, and in his MVP seasons averaged close to 4. Excellent ballhandlers like Nash, LBJ, Rondo and Deron Williams are averaging 3 to 4 a game. Generally speaking, if you're going to have the ball in your hands most of the time and you're a playmaker, you're going to turn it over.

So yeah, I am discounting those TOs as a stat to cut Lin down with. He made so many other excellent plays as a result of his distribution in this system, and they haven't affected his ability to control the game as a starter. In his "bad game" against the Pups, he had 20 and 10 against an equally excellent/precocious young PG (who is a very good defender) in Rubio, did it against a defense which trapped/gooned the shit out of him like the LAL defense, and did it with tired legs.

He'll be good again tonight. Watch.

Yeah TO's aren't a huge deal for PGs, its just that he had like 3 or 4 dumb passes in the second half. Not horrible, as he was trying to make things happen, but still dumb

Also I was just on BB reference and Nash has a 60% assist percentage, wtffffffff

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Good thing is, there is already and actor that can play Jeremy Lin in the Jeremy Lin movie.

Jimmy Tsai from Ping Pong PLaya

 

[Dragon]

 

[JoeFu]

Yeah, people forget that Nash averages a high amount of turnovers. I can't count how many times he would have like a 8-10 TO game.

Yeah he had a few bad triple doubles when playing against the Mavs that I remember.

 

[krzy123]

Are you on crack?



Oh another reason? He had 16 fumbles that year. 16!!! Oh yeah the guy was a dynamic runner if you ignore the fact he was a turnover machine.

the most fumbles lost he had in year was 7. 16 fumbles doesnt equal 16 turnovers.

 

[DY_nasty]

They're the part you mentioned.



What issues would those be? If you're going for the personal attack at least be forthright instead of vague.

You're the one who brought up him being a leader in yards from scrimmage.

But seriously, if you can't see the difference you're either being intentionally obtuse or you're just... yeah

 

[Dragon]

the most fumbles lost he had in year was 7. 16 fumbles doesnt equal 16 turnovers.

Completely true. But he has little control after he fumbles the ball. I'm not going to give him credit because his team was able to recover more than half of them.

You're the one who brought up him being a leader in yards from scrimmage.

But seriously, if you can't see the difference you're either being intentionally obtuse or you're just... yeah

In response to your post about him being slightly above average. Which was completely false.

Nice false dichotomy there.

 

[neutralgamer02]

Even adding in his rushing yards does nothing to dissuade me from saying that the sheer amount of turnovers he committed in 2004 puts him at the bottom of the list at the quarterback position. You haven't said anything that seems to disagree with this either. Your arguments seem to boil down to: "he's not a prototypical quarterback so it's okay that he turns the ball over a lot. Oh and he wins."



A reason not to run the ball a lot as a QB. Especially when you don't tuck it when you run and hold it out from your body.



Again. What does this have to do with rating his individual performance? I'm confounded that the "Just winz" argument can go from Vick/Young to Tebow and continue to be used as a justification for playing poorly.

I'm not going to continue this discussion because you obviously have some sort of subjective view on Vick. Putting Vick on the bottom on any quarterback list is just dumb.

 

[krzy123]

Completely true. But he has little control after he fumbles the ball. I'm not going to give him credit because his team was able to recover more than half of them.

Also wrong he recovered 4 of them himself that year. So his team only recovered 5 of the 16.

 

[Dragon]

I'm not going to continue this discussion because you obviously have some sort of subjective view on Vick. Putting Vick on the bottom on any quarterback list is just dumb.

You're right bro.

Using statistics to back up arguments = subjective
Saying he just wins = objective

Is that about summing up our interaction so far?

Also wrong he recovered 4 of them himself that year. So his team only recovered 5 of the 16.

Yippee. He got lucky! Good for him and the Falcons.

 

[marathonfool]

Move your football discussion to another thread.

 

[DY_nasty]

Hillis is exactly that though.

How are you going to take one stat and just run off and say he was the best RBs that year?

 

[midonnay]

Good thing is, there is already and actor that can play Jeremy Lin in the Jeremy Lin movie.

Jimmy Tsai from Ping Pong PLaya

I was thinking about this while watching his highlights.....but I couldn't remember the name of the movie :lol

 

[neutralgamer02]

You're right bro.

Using statistics to back up arguments = subjective
Saying he just wins = objective

Is that about summing up our interaction so far?



Yippee. He got lucky! Good for him and the Falcons.

So, who are your top 10 quarterbacks in the league right now?

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl.

Vick doesn't suck. He's now improved to solidly mediocre.

uhh trent didnt TAKE his team anywhere he was on a monster team , the falcons made it to the playoffs because of some ridiculous play by vick. He was an absolute physical phenom, this cannot be denied and athleticism can win some games in football, thats pretty much what he did his first 5 years, win on athletic gifts, fast as hell, and a cannon arm.

no one is gonna defend his football iq or QB tool kit from those years. No one is gonna deny he won games with his gifts either, its apparent, obvious, and clearly seen.

 

[Baby Milo]

Shout out to Knick Fans. They always knew Lin was a winner.

yeah those 10 or so people represent the entire knicks fanbase

 

[EatChildren]

Football discussion to be taken elsewhere, like I dunno a football thread or something. Thanks guys.

 

[Stinkles]

Football discussion to be taken elsewhere, like I dunno a football thread or something. Thanks guys.

I browse and lurk all the sports threads, but gosh darn if basketball gaf is not the saltiest of them all.

 

[DY_nasty]

Basketball gaf was founded on salt.

Football discussion to be taken elsewhere, like I dunno a football thread or something. Thanks guys.

It is being derailed by a guy being disturbingly obtuse for no real reason... but I think Hillis/Lin comparisons work.

 

[a Master Ninja]

The Sports Illustrated cover made me laugh out loud. The look on Lin's face is priceless.

 

[richiek]

Shout out to Knick Fans. They always knew Lin was a winner.

Fuck all these assholes.

 

[vas_a_morir]

That if Larry Bird was black he would just be another player?

Hmm... I'd say he'd be 50% less popular. How Asian-Americans feel about Lin is how we felt about Larry Bird, honestly.

 

[2San]

The hype about this guy is amazing, it even reached to here in the Netherlands. A pretty popular talk show(De Wereld Draait Door) had the main segment about him.

I saw the man play in the Lakers match. Have to say he definitely stands out, though I don't know much about the basketball(I tend to watch ESPN recently before I go to sleep and when I wake up, since there's nothing else on). The other guy that stood out in my recent ESPN viewings is Tom Brady(NFL obviously). I think that's what nice about American sports, it's clear to see which guys are good or at least are having a good game.

 

[levious]

Hmm... I'd say he'd be 50% less popular. How Asian-Americans feel about Lin is how we felt about Larry Bird, honestly.

he would have taken more flack for being such a big shit talker maybe.

 

[My Sedatives]

Oh fucking Rockets... sigh.

 

[Zzoram]

From what I can tell about this guy's story, he was already showing a ton of promise a few years back but scouters totally ignored him because he was asian? Even his coach was going to cut him, and only played him reluctantly? Was that all because he is asian? Did they just ignore his skill during practice or something?