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[RepairmanJack]

I hope they make it so you get credit for the kill the moment you down someone, even if they are not finished off. I have not played GW1 in pvp. Did you get credit for the kill even if the player was rezzed during the match?

Didn't really play the first one, but the first time this was brought up I think someone said it would still reward you. I think you get points for the kill and then extra points for the finish.

Can someone link to an article or blog post that explains the mechanics of downed state?

Cause from the surface of it, I don't see much difference in being "downed" vs. being "killed" in other MMO's. You can still rez the dead in say WoW, which requires an out-of-combat cast (and can't be interrupted during, so no different than a channeled spell).

The main difference I see is that downed players can still use some abilities to help their teammates, although limited, so they're not just sitting at a "release" dialog waiting for a rez. Sounds fun to me. Also means opponents still need to be aware of those they already knocked out from the fight.

If there's a way for the downed player to self-revive though, that imo should be eliminated from PvP.

Here's the wiki article on it. You are basically right, it's just a way for downed players to help out and have a way to fight back from being downed. But they also have a self heal that gets cancelled by any damage, but I think this was added after the beta(not sure). They found that they would be left alone and with no one around to fight they would have to wait til the timer ran out to revive.

 

[gunbo13]

But we know that if you keep putting them back into it, they get closer and closer to not getting up.

Peppering downed enemies to maintain their somewhat dead state sounds like the most ridiculous meta in the history of PvP. Just sayin.

I hope they make it so you get credit for the kill the moment you down someone, even if they are not finished off. I have not played GW1 in pvp. Did you get credit for the kill even if the player was rezzed during the match?

I played a ridiculous amount of hours of GW1 and I can honestly say I have no idea. Getting kills in PvP just didn't matter at all. It was all about winning matches which sours me a bit with GW2 and the individualistic approach.

The main difference I see is that downed players can still use some abilities to help their teammates, although limited, so they're not just sitting at a "release" dialog waiting for a rez. Sounds fun to me. Also means opponents still need to be aware of those they already knocked out from the fight.

If there's a way for the downed player to self-revive though, that imo should be eliminated from PvP.

Main difference are that downed state gives a skill bar, basically another life state. ANET is toying around with self-revive by mashing a key. And in order to cancel the downed state, other then timer expiration, you do some weird looking 5 second finisher cast where you chant a prayer or something. The opposition has the ability to basically pump health into the downed opponent to bring them up. So there is technically no revive. It is more like wounded soldier stuff.

I will say again, this is a great system for WvW/PvE.

 

[BrettWeir]

Are they going to have stats tracked?
For instance:

• PvP Solo kills
• PvP total kills
• Keeps taken
• Supply lines destroyed
• etc....

 

[RepairmanJack]

Don't think these were posted yet but here is the Yogscast Norn Part 3 video and a long Necro video.

Now to go watch...

Are they going to have stats tracked?
For instance:

• PvP Solo kills
• PvP total kills
• Keeps taken
• Supply lines destroyed
• etc....

I think this was talked about wanting to do this, but it wasn't in the plans yet. Not sure thought I think it was in an interview. Edit:Scratch this, I was thinking of leaderboards regarding instances and such.

 

[Ashodin]

Watching yogscast play is like pulling teeth. They never use dodge, or hot swap weapons while other attacks are on CD.

It's terrible.

 

[RepairmanJack]

Watching yogscast play is like pulling teeth. They never use dodge, or hot swap weapons while other attacks are on CD.

It's terrible.

I thought they were finally picking up on dodge in the first Norn video, but it must have just been a mistake...

How can you use dodge one single time and not go "Oh shit, that might be usefull!"?

 

[Jira]

The Yogscast video Max was referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFja...xt=C370a035UDOEgsToPDskI8iE7rb-4JUjABEINlHTzO

 

[Quadrophenic]

Are they going to have stats tracked?
For instance:

• PvP Solo kills
• PvP total kills
• Keeps taken
• Supply lines destroyed
• etc....

I am not certain, but I am pretty sure they do keep these stats as part of thier achievement system. I think they are account-wide though, not per character. I am not sure if those specific stats are tracked. I only remember them keeping track of how many kills/kills per month/kills per day of various types of creatures in PvE. I would assume they will have something similar for PvP/WvW

 

[Ashodin]

The Yogscast video Max was referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFja...xt=C370a035UDOEgsToPDskI8iE7rb-4JUjABEINlHTzO

However, watching, I am imagining myself in those scenarios and how much better at them I will be. I absolutely love watching quests just "appear" in their log while they roam about.

That is going to be the best thing about leveling.

 

[Jira]

However, watching, I am imagining myself in those scenarios and how much better at them I will be. I absolutely love watching quests just "appear" in their log while they roam about.

That is going to be the best thing about leveling.

Indeed.

PCGamer Q&A on a bunch of different topics:

http://www.pcgamer.com/previews/guild-wars-2-beta-qa-discusses-wvw-events-and-more/

Ugh PC Gamer UGH just stop talking.

They bash DEs cause they didn't get to see any Meta Events and mistook Hearts for DEs as well, they clearly know nothing detailed about the game and barely understand it in a broad general sense either. They also referred to everything as quests and it all being static and it's like NO SHIT if you're going from Heart to Heart since those are made to be static. Sigh.

 

[Jira]

40 min of Necro PvP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ay5np0078

 

[Mulligan]

Where the hell is totalbiscuits footage? It can't have taken him this long to edit, he could have released them seperately or something.

 

[Ashodin]

Where the hell is totalbiscuits footage? It can't have taken him this long to edit, he could have released them seperately or something.

On another video he said he got sick and couldn't narrate. Which really sucks, because I think it's all edited and everything, they're just waiting for him to get his voice back to actually talk over it.

 

[Mulligan]

On another video he said he got sick and couldn't narrate. Which really sucks, because I think it's all edited and everything, they're just waiting for him to get his voice back to actually talk over it.

Damn. Was really looking forward to his overview on each proffession. I guess Yogcast will have to do for now..

 

[Jira]

Yeah he has the flu :-/

 

[DJIzana]

Indeed.

PCGamer Q&A on a bunch of different topics:

http://www.pcgamer.com/previews/guild-wars-2-beta-qa-discusses-wvw-events-and-more/

Ugh PC Gamer UGH just stop talking.

They bash DEs cause they didn't get to see any Meta Events and mistook Hearts for DEs as well, they clearly know nothing detailed about the game and barely understand it in a broad general sense either. They also referred to everything as quests and it all being static and it's like NO SHIT if you're going from Heart to Heart since those are made to be static. Sigh.

With all due respect though, I too was pretty hyped about that dynamic event system because their PR always like to create hype to the max etc. It certainly was misleading to me too. Especially during that manifesto video back earlier last year or whenever it was.

I understand they're supposed to be static etc but we were still left with the impression that there would be chances from like killing a dragon & saving a village. At least, that's what me & my friends were left with at the end of the day...

 

[Arken2121]

Yeah he has the flu :-/

That's unfortunate. On the other hand, i'm just glad to get some video footage anyway I can, even if it's from those who refuse to learn. What we're seeing is the most current build so it's nice to see how things are progressing.

 

[J-Rzez]

I like the "downed state" concept as it adds another layer to strats. What I don't like are the terrible "finishing" animations that I've seen thus far. Hopefully they address those.

 

[GoldenChicken]

Watching yogscast play is like pulling teeth. They never use dodge, or hot swap weapons while other attacks are on CD.

It's terrible.

There wasn't really any need to in for any of those events though. They were killing mobs pretty quickly and barely taking any damage. The only death was when one fell off the tower. It also takes time to learn which attacks are worth dodging away from and to get into the habit of doing it. Unlike most of us the press hasn't been tapping their keyboards while watching videos imaging they were playing or dreaming about the game every night.

Arenanet needs to create situations where dodging/weapon swapping is necessary if they expect people to use them. This was only a level 15 zone though, so hopefully it picks up later. The boss at the end of the event chain was pretty disappointing though. No one dodged or even ran away and still no one died. Not sure if the scaling is working correctly or what, but after a long event chain like that you would figure the boss at the end would be pretty tough. It should at least have some AoE's and hit like a truck.

 

[Jira]

With all due respect though, I too was pretty hyped about that dynamic event system because their PR always like to create hype to the max etc. It certainly was misleading to me too. Especially during that manifesto video back earlier last year or whenever it was.

I understand they're supposed to be static etc but we were still left with the impression that there would be chances from like killing a dragon & saving a village. At least, that's what me & my friends were left with at the end of the day...

No, I think you misunderstand what I said. PC Gamer thinks they're static, however DEs ARE NOT static by any means. They were looking at Hearts which are ENTIRELY separate from DEs and ARE static pieces of content. They were mistaking Hearts for DEs. DEs ARE truly dynamic, there's no smoke being blown up anyone's ass, PC Gamer is just stupid.

If you don't actually follow the game, you won't know that Hearts have nothing to do with DEs, DEs CAN interact with Heart areas, but they're not one in the same. Hearts are 657 pieces of static content entirely separate from the 1,500+ Dynamic Events. The reason Hearts are in the game is to give people guaranteed content in case a DE happens to not be running in the nearby area so they don't feel like they have nothing to do.

 

[Arken2121]

There wasn't really any need to in for any of those events though. They were killing mobs pretty quickly and barely taking any damage. The only death was when one fell off the tower. It also takes time to learn which attacks are worth dodging away from and to get into the habit of doing it. Unlike most of us the press hasn't been tapping their keyboards while watching videos imaging they were playing or dreaming about the game every night.

Arenanet needs to create situations where dodging/weapon swapping is necessary if they expect people to use them. This was only a level 15 zone though, so hopefully it picks up later. The boss at the end of the event chain was pretty disappointing though. No one dodged or even ran away and still no one died. Not sure if the scaling is working correctly or what, but after a long event chain like that you would figure the boss at the end would be pretty tough. It should at least have some AoE's and hit like a truck.

Just use the Catacombs as an example. You desperately need to dodge there if you want to survive. I'm sure like you said at the beginning it's just a learning experience to hopefully lean you towards figuring out the mechanics for later on.

 

[Ashodin]

There wasn't really any need to in for any of those events though. They were killing mobs pretty quickly and barely taking any damage. The only death was when one fell off the tower. It also takes time to learn which attacks are worth dodging away from and to get into the habit of doing it. Unlike most of us the press hasn't been tapping their keyboards while watching videos imaging they were playing or dreaming about the game every night.

Arenanet needs to create situations where dodging/weapon swapping is necessary if they expect people to use them. This was only a level 15 zone though, so hopefully it picks up later. The boss at the end of the event chain was pretty disappointing though. No one dodged or even ran away and still no one died. Not sure if the scaling is working correctly or what, but after a long event chain like that you would figure the boss at the end would be pretty tough. It should at least have some AoE's and hit like a truck.

It is necessary though - in most of the videos, they were at half health or lower because they didn't even move. The only reason they didn't die horribly was a bunch of other players swooped in and saved their asses. The game is trying to tell you when you're near death that hey, maybe dodging is what is needed here.

With all due respect though, I too was pretty hyped about that dynamic event system because their PR always like to create hype to the max etc. It certainly was misleading to me too. Especially during that manifesto video back earlier last year or whenever it was.

I understand they're supposed to be static etc but we were still left with the impression that there would be chances from like killing a dragon & saving a village. At least, that's what me & my friends were left with at the end of the day...

This is not just hype though - it's actually in the game, and you have to progress events to certain points to see that stuff - it's not like you're instantly gratified with a huge boss fight. You're working with people and then crazy stuff happens.

It's just like real life.


EDIT: Wow that Wulf guy that posted on PC Gamer's website really ripped em a new one, haha.

I'm not sure if you guys are really unobservant or what's going on there...

Other commentators have mentioned, and shown, in videos where things have happened after dynamic events. Where someone WILL congratulate you, and then in a devastated area, once you've cleared up, towns will start rebuilding and repopulating, and things will happen.

I'm not sure if you were just impatient and all "GOTTA RUN OFF TO DO THE NEXT THING!" barely waiting a second before anything happened. But there are other videos out there which show a very different story regarding dynamic events.

Not to mention that some of the kills and things that happen in dynamic events will be reflected in your city quarter, in the form of trophies and so on. You didn't mention this, either. So... again, I just found the video kind of misleading. I'm just given to wonder whether you guys were just really unobservant when playing, and not very thorough.

And there are plenty of hidden events, too. Some events are even hidden behind a parkour-laden gauntlet that you have to run before the event is activated. Some are just tucked away in really hard to find spots. TotalBiscuit's 'jumping puzzle' video is a good example of this. So, again, I think the 'oh, run up a hill and a monster is there' example is very misleading.

I think that your disappointment stems from your own impatience. But that's just the opinion of an informed person who's been watching lots of other videos and not just this one. I think you're too mired in troped MMO style gameplay to actually just want to go and wander around and explore, taking your time. Or to want to wait in an area to see what happens.

You guys strike me as power gamers. So the MOMENT the event ends you just rush off madly to do something else. Admittedly you're maximising what you do in the game, but you're also missing out on a lot of what happens if you weren't doing that.

Guild Wars 2, as a game, is aimed strongly at casual people. So... when you were madly rushing from the event you'd just completed, a shopkeeper might have turned up at a repopulated town, selling rewards complete to that area. Something that you would have missed.

They do say that things don't happen IMMEDIATELY but over time, and sometimes a little patience pays off. The way you speak in the video, you're expecting an immediate re-population of people, and immediate praise, but they're trying to work in a little believability into the process, and it doesn't work like that.

Another thing that's missed out on here is how dynamic events can lead to people turning up at your city quarter. For example: If you save a person's town, they may come up to you and tell you how thankful they are, and then offer to be a shopkeeper near where you live (in your city).

So you then get access to new, unique goods in your city.

There's a lot going on there, but I feel you're going to miss most of it if you're just madly rushing around, you know? "Oh, I've waited 20 seconds. I'm bored. LET'S GO TO THE NEXT EVENT! Nothing is happening here."

Anyway, just critique of the video. And I'm hopeful that unlike other sites (thanks to certain bloody egomaniacs) that you won't be thin-skinned enough to ban me for it.

I just feel that it's fair to offer a counterpoint, because I didn't really think that your video was a fair portrayal.

I would actually like to add that there's really no "power gaming" in GW2 - particularly because you de-level to ANY content and still gain EXP at the same rate - meaning you can experience everything in the game and still level quite well.

 

[Jira]

Glad someone logged in to say that. Colin also laid it out over on Guru about how things don't just happen right away and you gotta stick around and see what happens, other events could pop up that could eventually lead to even more new stuff. Colin even talked about how saving an area would eventually lead to a rebuild of that town, but it's not something that happens instantly.

There wasn't really any need to in for any of those events though. They were killing mobs pretty quickly and barely taking any damage. The only death was when one fell off the tower. It also takes time to learn which attacks are worth dodging away from and to get into the habit of doing it. Unlike most of us the press hasn't been tapping their keyboards while watching videos imaging they were playing or dreaming about the game every night.

Arenanet needs to create situations where dodging/weapon swapping is necessary if they expect people to use them. This was only a level 15 zone though, so hopefully it picks up later. The boss at the end of the event chain was pretty disappointing though. No one dodged or even ran away and still no one died. Not sure if the scaling is working correctly or what, but after a long event chain like that you would figure the boss at the end would be pretty tough. It should at least have some AoE's and hit like a truck.

There have been articles written by people who've played who have said if you're not dodging when you get into the 15+ zones, you will die. Yogscast hasn't actually been into the 15+ zone, that was off to the east & west from where they were. In all 3 of their newer Norn videos they were in the 1-15 zone. It's also been painfully clear that if you're not playing at your best when you step into the first dungeon, even in story mode, you're going to get owned.

http://www.killtenrats.com/2012/02/27/gw2-press-beta-the-richest-pve-experience-part-2/

"I have a feeling many players, such as I, are going to wonder where this exciting active-combat system is going to come in to play. It comes in to play in the level 15-25 zone."

"The sidekicking system was also really well done. As a level 30+, I journeyed into the Diessa Plateau (charr zone, level 15-25) with my human to experience some of that content on a developer’s tip. Even with my elite skills and better traits, there were definitely some challenging content as I was down-sidekicked automatically to the appropriate sub-zone’s content level. It is quickly apparent that there won’t be situations where I can just close my eyes and AoE until everything I over-aggro dies simply because I am 10 levels above. Missed or overleveled content will actually have to be played."

 

[Ashodin]

Glad someone logged in to say that. Colin also laid it out over on Guru about how things don't just happen right away and you gotta stick around and see what happens, other events could pop up that could eventually lead to even more new stuff. Colin even talked about how saving an area would eventually lead to a rebuild of that town, but it's not something that happens instantly.

I think that's the point of the press though - they want instant gratification and it's not going to happen right away - especially not in a three day beta.

 

[Jira]

I think that's the point of the press though - they want instant gratification and it's not going to happen right away - especially not in a three day beta.

Gamers are generally used to instant gratification and not having to work for anything so it's probably quite a foreign concept to most.

 

[Ashodin]

Gamers are generally used to instant gratification and not having to work for anything so it's probably quite a foreign concept to most.

Much like the other foreign concepts in this game - dodging, skills based on weapons, no raids, etc.

 

[Lumination]

Part 3 of the Yogscast Norn stuff is up.

 

[DJIzana]

No, I think you misunderstand what I said. PC Gamer thinks they're static, however DEs ARE NOT static by any means. They were looking at Hearts which are ENTIRELY separate from DEs and ARE static pieces of content. They were mistaking Hearts for DEs. DEs ARE truly dynamic, there's no smoke being blown up anyone's ass, PC Gamer is just stupid.

If you don't actually follow the game, you won't know that Hearts have nothing to do with DEs, DEs CAN interact with Heart areas, but they're not one in the same. Hearts are 657 pieces of static content entirely separate from the 1,500+ Dynamic Events. The reason Hearts are in the game is to give people guaranteed content in case a DE happens to not be running in the nearby area so they don't feel like they have nothing to do.

Aye, that was probably the case. Just a misunderstanding. Good then, all the better... I've played the first one but was turned off by not being able to jump / swim or really explore... but I've been following since they first showed off the trailer.

 

[Ashodin]

Aye, that was probably the case. Just a misunderstanding. Good then, all the better... I've played the first one but was turned off by not being able to jump / swim or really explore... but I've been following since they first showed off the trailer.

Exploration in this game is king. There are incredible amounts of hidden things all over the game, they used to have like a couple, but then I heard the designers went HOG wild once people internally tested and enjoyed the fuck out of them. It just makes playing FUN.

 

[DJIzana]

Exploration in this game is king. There are incredible amounts of hidden things all over the game, they used to have like a couple, but then I heard the designers went HOG wild once people internally tested and enjoyed the fuck out of them. It just makes playing FUN.

Now THAT'S what I like to hear.

Everything about this game looks too good to be true... the PVP, the PVE... soloing etc. Wow.

 

[Jira]

Exploration in this game is king. There are incredible amounts of hidden things all over the game, they used to have like a couple, but then I heard the designers went HOG wild once people internally tested and enjoyed the fuck out of them. It just makes playing FUN.

Yeah they weren't going to have that many initially, but the designers just started going at it and pumping them out.

 

[Ashodin]

Yeah they weren't going to have that many initially, but the designers just started going at it and pumping them out.

I can just see patches adding more and more over time. I think they said the way their patch system works they can just phase it in while people are playing.

Here's the zones laid out and labelled for level content.

 

[Jira]

If I had to guess, they'll be able to keep the same patching structure due to the zoning portals. For those that don't know, in GW1 if a patch came out, the game would notify you in the chat log and then you could just go relog and grab the patch. There was no downtime at all, in fact GW1 just went 8 months without downtime and before that it had been 2 years since it had downtime to move their servers. So if I had to guess the same thing will apply here, I do hope they can pull it off and not have any downtime. Just think...you can grab the patch when you want, no downtime, no server queues, and no monthly fees? How will any MMO compete with that?

 

[Nirolak]

So, the map says Tyria (Surface), but the bottom right notes that you're in the middle of three layers.

Dungeons/underwater are presumably the level below, but what's the level above?

 

[Complex Shadow]

I can just see patches adding more and more over time. I think they said the way their patch system works they can just phase it in while people are playing.

Here's the zones laid out and labelled for level content.

what about places like dwarf lands and other empty spaces. are those just empty wastelands?

 

[Ashodin]

So, the map says Tyria (Surface), but the bottom right notes that you're in the middle of three layers.

Dungeons/underwater are presumably the level below, but what's the level above?

I was watching the yogscast video, and they were able to see different "levels" of the map, and I'd have to watch it again to figure it out.

 

[Jira]

So, the map says Tyria (Surface), but the bottom right notes that you're in the middle of three layers.

Dungeons/underwater are presumably the level below, but what's the level above?

I think the level above is built for cities and such, hard to say if they'll come into play for the overworld.

what about places like dwarf lands and other empty spaces. are those just empty wastelands?

At launch yeah. The Ring of Fire to the SW and the Crystal Desert to the SE are coming post-launch in a patch for sure.

 

[Complex Shadow]

I think the level above is built for cities and such, hard to say if they'll come into play for the overworld.



At launch yeah. The Ring of Fire to the SW and the Crystal Desert to the SE are coming post-launch in a patch for sure.

so how would post game paid DLC work?

 

[Jira]

so how would post game paid DLC work?

Paid? Full expansion packs. Stuff like the areas I mentioned will be free patches.

 

[Ashodin]

Paid? Full expansion packs. Stuff like the areas I mentioned will be free patches.

Yep, stuff that would just get patched into the game seamlessly and open itself on its own.

Also, I figured it out from the first yogscast video:

There's three levels:

-- Upper Level
-- Tyria (Surface)
-- Tyria (Underground)

It's possible we might get floating cities and floating dungeons you teleport to, or just tall towers and such would register on it.

 

[Arken2121]

So much to explore, just like the original. Took you forever to cross continents but it was fun when you're looking to finish achievements and in this case, look for secrets.

Also, nice find Max, really sweet layout of the zone levels.

 

[Complex Shadow]

Yep, stuff that would just get patched into the game seamlessly and open itself on its own.

Also, I figured it out from the first yogscast video:

There's three levels:

-- Upper Level
-- Tyria (Surface)
-- Tyria (Underground)

It's possible we might get floating cities and floating dungeons you teleport to, or just tall towers and such would register on it.

i would love floating cities. would be so awesome to have guilds in the sky.

 

[Jira]

This was from a Yogscast video, I can just imagine there's TONS of these underground areas to explore, you can see there's a 3rd one off to the left too.

 

[DJIzana]

Nice find Jira... this is exactly what I'm looking forward to the most in Guild Wars 2. MMO's should be about exploring I think. Why else would you have such a huge world in a game if there's nothing there behind it or if it's not even accessible?

 

[Arken2121]

i would love floating cities. would be so awesome to have guilds in the sky.

I wouldn't be surprised honestly. After all we've seen so far, it would be icing on the massive cake.

 

[Jira]

Nice find Jira... this is exactly what I'm looking forward to the most in Guild Wars 2. MMO's should be about exploring I think. Why else would you have such a huge world in a game if there's nothing there behind it or if it's not even accessible?

Or worse there's simply nothing worth exploring at all because if you're not on a quest there's no point in looking around.

 

[Arken2121]

Or worse there's simply nothing worth exploring at all because if you're not on a quest there's no point in looking around.

That would be true if you picked up quests like in other mmorpgs. I'd go as far as to say that most if not all open areas have events.

 

[Sophia]

Or worse there's simply nothing worth exploring at all because if you're not on a quest there's no point in looking around.

HELLO ALMOST EVERY ZONE IN THE REVAMPED WORLD OF WARCRAFT.

Yeah, I was little disappointed there wasn't much to find.

I remember Everquest 2 had a few hidden secrets like this. I recall finding a hidden cave underwater once.

 

[Jira]

That would be true if you picked up quests like in other mmorpgs. I'd go as far as to say that most if not all open areas have events.

Oh yeah there's going to be ~60 events per zone probably depending on the size.

HELLO ALMOST EVERY ZONE IN THE REVAMPED WORLD OF WARCRAFT.

Yeah, I was little disappointed there wasn't much to find.

I remember Everquest 2 had a few hidden secrets like this. I recall finding a hidden cave underwater once.

That's why I loved Vanguard so much, exploration was deeply rewarded due to being able to find chests and placeholder mobs and named mobs in the world, it also allowed you to find dungeons too. You weren't always lead by the nose and a lot of it was very freeform.

 

[Ashodin]

This is also why Guild Wars 2 is going to rock - it's not just some neat little area you will find by exploring - it will be items, a unique event, maybe even a hidden boss with phat loot.

When I watched that TB video on the jumping puzzle, I absolutely said "Wow." when a special boss spawned, and they got some really phat blue from killing it.

I am going to be giddy once I see more stuff like that.