Blacks/Latinos vs Asians & early 20th century immigrants on social mobility in the US

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Now its no secret how far an unleveled playing field can effect people. Its really hard to move forward when you have shit schools, crappy communities, and parents who work all day and night.

However despite this there have been success stories. The most notable were the European immigrants of the early 20th century. From 1900 to 1950 the population of the United States more than doubled. Many of these people came here looking for a better life when social programs were nowhere near as existent as today. Yet despite this a majority of these people's descendants have moved up to middle class or beyond. However, Latinos and to a greater extent African-Americans, haven't undergone the same social mobility that others have.

Another examples are Asians are considered a "model minority". Many Asian-Americans have climbed that social mobility ladder and notorious for having children becoming high class citizens. Though the "secret formula" leaves some uncomfortable as Amy Chau's "big reveal" has shown (how accurate it is I cannot comment).

Now I can think of some reasons for this. Possibly the Asian immigrants we get tend to be those who already are from successful background? America's colleges are very well noted to have many exchange students attending them, especially Asian exchange students. As for the European immigrants, while they did live in a time lacking social welfare, there was also a job market that didn't require college degrees or special skills to receive a moderate paying job. You could graduate high school and BAM! Career opportunities right in front of you! This hasn't been the case in America for at least 40 years (10 years after the Civil Rights Movement).

So does anybody else on GAF have an opinion on this? I know its a touchy subject and that this thread will be full of *thisgonnabegood.gif*s, but I would really appreciate some quality discussion on this subject since its considered so taboo to talk about out in the open.
 
....waiting for the racist shit to pop up

And you can't compare the experience of blacks in terms of social mobility to those of European descent. One optionally immigrated to the country, the other was forced by enslavement. Not to mention systemic racism.
 
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These books do an excellent job examining all of that.
 
Children who grow up with involved parents who take an active role in parenting their kids tend to do better. End of story.
 
I am going to give my honest opinion on this and it's not to offend anyone. The Asian culture tends to celebrate education and higher learning, while it doesn't seem to be the main priority of other minority groups. Said as nicely as I could.
 
These books do an excellent job examining all of that.

Could you repeat some of the results with these books please?

Hey, Chi, what's the spoiler text say?

I did the same thing!

....waiting for the racist shit to pop up

And you can't compare the experience of blacks in terms of social mobility to those of European descent. One optionally immigrated to the country, the other was forced by enslavement. Not to mention systemic racism.

I agree but didn't other immigrants experience systematic racism? I mean many European immigrants weren't considered white at the time. Not even the Irish.

Also why can't I compare them in terms of social mobility in present day as 20th century immigrants experienced much discrimination as well?
 
Could you repeat some of the results with these books please?



I did the same thing!



I agree but didn't other immigrants experience systematic racism? I mean many European immigrants weren't considered white at the time. Not even the Irish.

Also why can't I compare them in terms of social mobility in present day as 20th century immigrants experienced much discrimination as well?

Yeah, I'll update at home. I gotta wrap up something in the office.'

Or this is something I wrote a while ago, it addresses some of the issues.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26521273&postcount=473

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The issue that comes about when Asian-Americans have to confront issues of racism are twofold, one from other communities of color, and the other from American society in general.

From communities of color, often racism against Asian-Americans is not seen as valid, or not as extreme because there has never been the stigma violence behind it, or it is simply seen as "not as bad" as what has happened to other groups. But Asians in the United States have been the victims of anti-miscegenation laws, laws that prevented them from owning property or even large bills such as the Chinese exclusion act. As far as direct violence, the history of anti-Chinese lynchings in cities such as Denver and San Francisco are often over looked. Even modern day incidents, such as the murder of Vincent Chin are seen more as exceptions to racism/violence against Asians-Americans rather than a overall trend.

Also, the model minority issues often pits Asian-Americans against other ethnic groups. American society holds up Asian-Americans as an example of how an immigrant experience and how people of color have as much opportunity as other groups, which is simply not true. There are a variety of factors of why Asian immigration, especially since 1965 has been considered "successful" in comparison to the experience of other people of color in the United States. "Hey, if the Chinese/Korean/Vietnamese can come over and in one generation get their kids in college, whats going on black/latinos?" So within those communities, there is resentment towards Asian-Americans because it is perceived that Asian-Americans have it much easier, or "the good minorities."

Part of it Asian-America has done to itself. We have certainly pigeon-holed ourselves into that model minority role, because, its a pretty attractive place to be. Who doesn't want to be seen as smart, successful and relatively non-threatening? That role also supports the belief that America is a meritocracy. Asian-Americans keep their heads down, study hard, make money and achieve the "American Dream." Why wouldn't popular American society hold up that sort of work ethic, and success rate to demonstrate the best of what America can be?

That leads into the other part of why allegations and issues of racism that Asian-Americans bring up are delegitimized by both white people and other people of color. The great influx of Asian-Americans into the United States occurred after 1965. This was while the civil rights movement was growing and becoming a great social movement in the United States. For the most part, Asian-Americans were in 3 places, the West Coast, New York and Hawaii. Since the population was not spread out nationally the same way the African-American, and to a lesser extent, the Latino population, the face of Asian-America was largely absent from the civil rights struggle. So when Asian immigrants arrived, there was a perception that they thrived due to the social changes that were made. And often seen as benefitting without paying their "dues."

So one one hand, you have the communities of color, which endured incredible oppression and institutional racism to get place at the starting line, get "passed" by a recent immigrant group. And on the other hand, you have a greater American society that says, "Hey, we made these changes, and this one group is doing really well. Why are the rest of your still complaining?" It put Asian-Americans in an unenviable place in American racial politics.

So you have a group of immigrants in the United States, which is slowly dwarfing the population of 2nd, 3rd and even 4th generation Asian-Americans of Chinese and Japanese origin. Many of the immigrants are from countries, from which the US has military involvement with. So for 2 entire generations of Americans, Asians are seen as the "other." Whether that means easily identifiable foreigners, or potentially former enemies. And this generation of Americans have recently "gotten over" their own immigrant experience, where they are now truly feeling an ownership of America, and now consider themselves "American." The perpetual "other"-ness of Asians in America allows casual discrimination or institutional racism to be more socially acceptable. As in, "Why worry, those people don't even speak English, and I probably fought against them during the war."

So Asian-Americans, when they do have legitimate issues of racism and discrimination that face them, get reactions of, "Its not that bad, especially if you consider what has happened to African-Americans or Latinos." And this argument is especially prevalent in Southern California. Or, because Asian-Americans are still a growing group with no solid definition, as in we have 5th generation Asian-American as well as people who immigrated 3 months ago, America still treats us as "the other," and is dismissive of our issues.

And the reaction for a long time was, "Keep your head down, study hard, make money and Americans will respect you." But there are generations of Asian-Americans, who have read Ron Takaki, Maxine Hong-Kingston, Helen Zia, Carlos Bulosan, Frank Chin, Urvashi Viad, Frank Wu, David Henry Hwang, etc. who want a voice in American politics, and want to have a more active role for Asian-Americans politically and socially. The want you to remember the internment and Vincent Chin, they want you to know how fucked up it is when NBC Sports runs headlines like "Michelle Kwan Beaten By American Lipinski." When those voices are raised, people don't want to hear them. There are a lot of reasons for that. But because Asian-American issues have constantly be delegitimized, or marginalized by American society, or other communities of color, we are forced to elevate these incidents which affect our community.

With Barack Obama being President, Asian-Americans are thrilled. Like how Bill Clinton was the first "black" president. Barack Obama, is the first Asian-American president in many ways. He was raised in Hawaii and Asia, his sister is half-Indonesian, brother in law is Vietnamese, his life story, to Asian-Americans, mirrosr our experiences very well. It is that sort of inspiration which is fueling greater Asian-American involvement in social and political issues. The reaction to the UCLA Youtube girl isn't a flash in the pan, it is an indicator of the greater role Asian-Americans are willing to take in this country.

And I've gone on too long.
 
European immigrants benefited from institutional advantages that blacks did not. European immigrants had access to almost every social program of the early twentieth century, the same can not be said for blacks. And currently, Asians who loose their jobs are out of work for a longer period on average than whites who are laid off. The "model minority" still does not have access to the same degree of success as white Americans.
 
A lot of the asian immigrants allowed into this country after the 1965 immigration act were already well educated and looking to apply their talents and rise. It's no wonder that these immigrants and their children would climb the social ladder (at least in terms of income) very quickly. You can't really compare it to the experience of blacks and latinos.
 
I agree but didn't other immigrants experience systematic racism? I mean many European immigrants weren't considered white at the time. Not even the Irish.

Also why can't I compare them in terms of social mobility in present day as 20th century immigrants experienced much discrimination as well?

Where they allowed to vote? Did they attend separate schools? Did literacy result in the death penalty in their parents or grandparents era? Where they harassed by terrorist organizations like the KKK? Where they harassed by the police on a regular basis? Where they forced out of neighborhoods? Where they prevented from living in or starting business in good neighborhoods?
 
Yeah, I'll update at home. I gotta wrap up something in the office.'

Or this is something I wrote a while ago, it addresses some of the issues.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26521273&postcount=473

So in short:

- Asian Americans came after the Civil Rights Movement. So all the harm done pre-Civil rights era (shit communities, crime, shit schools, etc.) didn't effect them

- Many Asian Americans come from privileged families

- Asian Americans aren't vocal about their problems. And when they do people get mad. Example: "Linsanity".

Where they allowed to vote? Did they attend separate schools? Did literacy result in the death penalty in their parents or grandparents era? Where they harassed by terrorist organizations like the KKK? Where they harassed by the police on a regular basis? Where they forced out of neighborhoods? Where they prevented from living in or starting business in good neighborhoods?

I'm talking about right now. Its been one and a half generations since the Civil Rights Movement. Is there any significant progress?
 
So in short:

- Asian Americans came after the Civil Rights Movement. So all the harm done pre-Civil rights era (shit communities, crime, shit schools, etc.) didn't effect them

- Many Asian Americans come from privileged families

- Asian Americans aren't vocal about their problems. And when they do people get mad. Example: "Linsanity".



I'm talking about right now. Its been one and a half generations since the Civil Rights Movement. Is there any significant progress?

The things he's talking about laid the foundation for there not to be any progress.
 
So in short:

- Asian Americans came after the Civil Rights Movement. So all the harm done pre-Civil rights era (shit communities, crime, shit schools, etc.) didn't effect them

- Many Asian Americans come from privileged families

- Asian Americans aren't vocal about their problems. And when they do people get mad. Example: "Linsanity".



I'm talking about right now. Its been one and a half generations since the Civil Rights Movement. Is there any significant progress?

Well, the bulk of Asian-Americans came after the Civil Rights Movements. The ones before had their own issues. Internment, being lynched, etc.

Not necesarily privileged economically, but for most East Asian immigrants, they were college educated.

Has there been progress for Asian-Americans? Yes and no. Because of our economic success, we generally have access to address our issues that other immigrant groups do not. On the other hand, the issues are taken less seriously, by both the hite and minorty communities.
 
I'm talking about right now. Its been one and a half generations since the Civil Rights Movement. Is there any significant progress?

All the things I talked about have a cumulative effect going down generations. If you're grandparents weren't allowed to learn how to read on pain of death, that will have an effect on your literacy, which will have an effect on the amount of wealth you obtain over the course of your life. The amount of wealth and education you obtain affects your children and your grandchildren. A massive percentage of a person's net worth (I want to say around 40%) is inherited from their parents. How much is the average black person inheriting from their parents in 1964? I'm only 28 and my mother was born in 1955, ten years before Jim Crow ended. This shit did not happen that long ago. But, it is important to discuss what's happening today:

To believe that the United States is post-racial requires an almost incomprehensible inability or unwillingness to stare truth in the face.

How can we be post-racial, after all, when the typical white family has 20 times the net worth of the typical black family, and 18 times that of the typical Latino family?

How can we be post-racial when studies find that even white men with criminal records are more likely to be called back for job interviews than black men without them, even when all other credentials and personal characteristics are indistinguishable?

How can we be post-racial when evidence suggests that the lightest-skinned immigrants earn roughly 17% more than the darkest-skinned immigrants, even when qualifications and levels of productivity are the same?

How can we be post-racial when Asian Americans, Latinos and blacks with college degrees are anywhere from one-third more likely to nearly twice as likely to be unemployed as their white counterparts? When schools serving mostly students of color are more than ten times as likely to be places of concentrated poverty, and far more likely to have the least experienced teachers?

How can we be post-racial when people of color continue to be so disproportionately targeted by our nation’s drug laws?

Although whites use drugs just as often as blacks (and more often than Latinos), it is people of color who comprise nearly 90% of persons incarcerated for a drug possession offense. And it is people of color who are disproportionately stopped and searched for drugs and other illegal contraband, even though they are no more likely (and sometimes less likely) to be in possession of such items than whites are.

How can we be post-racial, when presidential candidates are either too afraid to raise these issues publicly, for fear of voter backlash (as with the Democratic incumbent), or willing to shamelessly exploit racial anxieties and resentments (as with at least one of the primary Republican challengers) by calling President Obama the “food stamp” president, or suggesting that poor black kids have “no habits of work” and should be made to clean their own schools as janitors?

This, despite the fact that most people in poor communities do work, and black teenage unemployment rates (now well over 40 percent) reflect only those black teens who are searching for jobs, and thus, by definition already have a solid work ethic, lacking only the opportunities to put that ethic into practice.

Sadly, the claims of America’s equanimity and post-raciality are not really new.

Even in the early 1960s, before the passage of civil rights legislation, at a time when we were still a formal apartheid state, polls found that a vast majority percent of whites already believed that blacks had just as good a chance to obtain a good job, housing or a good education as we or our children did.

http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012...ost-racial-reflections-on-denial-and-reality/

The war on drugs, which has been prosecuted disproportionately in black and Latino communities, along with the prison system, the educational system, and ingrained racist perspectives work together to maintain much of the discrimination that was meant to be destroyed in 1964. Drug laws are enforced in a discriminatory way which has the effect of increasing the incarceration rates of black and Latino Americans. This is aided by three-strike laws and other draconian and discriminatory practices in the criminal justice system. Increased incarceration rates lead to economic and social destruction in black and Latino communities because young males, who are vital to producing wages and raising children, spend their youth behind bars. Even when they are released from prison, the stigma of being a convict allows employers to legally discriminate against them, furthering economic disparities. This economic destruction has a ripple effect as the overall health and well being of the community suffers. Lower employment and lower paying jobs lead to less tax revenue for schools, which disadvantages children in black and Latino communities. Even highly motivated students find it difficult to succeed in underfunded schools with inexperienced teachers.
 
All the things I talked about have a cumulative effect going down generations. If you're grandparents weren't allowed to learn how to read on pain of death, that will have an effect on your literacy, which will have an effect on the amount of wealth you obtain over the course of your life. The amount of wealth and education you obtain affects your children and your grandchildren. A massive percentage of a person's net worth (I want to say around 40%) is inherited from your parents. How much is the average black person inheriting from their parents in 1964? I'm only 28 and my mother was born in 1955, ten years before Jim Crow ended. This shit did not happen that long ago. But it is important to discuss what's happening today:



http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012...ost-racial-reflections-on-denial-and-reality/

Thank you for these stats. Depressing, but extremely relevant.
 
Well, the bulk of Asian-Americans came after the Civil Rights Movements. The ones before had their own issues. Internment, being lynched, etc.

Not necesarily privileged economically, but for most East Asian immigrants, they were college educated.

Has there been progress for Asian-Americans? Yes and no. Because of our economic success, we generally have access to address our issues that other immigrant groups do not. On the other hand, the issues are taken less seriously, by both the hite and minorty communities.

I raged in a non-race related thread when someone casually posted a picture of a nerdy asian guy, and the responses were mainly:

"lol, calm down dude"
"that picture could be white and it would have the same affect"
"thats racist! lol"

and one that really stuck with me was from Dreams-Vision saying:

"school me on racism" (him being black), as if saying, "asians, complaining about racism? Tell me more about that."

So Chi's thoughts on Asian issues in western society being delegitimized is so spot on. Always appreciated how you're able to word it so much better than my "what, asians cant speak up?!" quips.
 
Has there been progress for Asian-Americans? Yes and no. Because of our economic success, we generally have access to address our issues that other immigrant groups do not. On the other hand, the issues are taken less seriously, by both the hite and minorty communities.

That's what I mean. Why are you guys so much more economically successful?

and one that really stuck with me was from Dreams-Vision saying:

"school me on racism" (him being black), as if saying, "asians, complaining about racism? Tell me more about that."
.

Dreams-Vision? Smh.
 
That's what I mean. Why are you guys so much more economically successful?

Where Im at in southern california, there are equal amounts of kids who grow up in "poor" asian families and "successful" asian families. And even in the "poor" families, the kids generally end up with great grades, going to a good college, and end up with decent/good jobs. These same kids are also exposed to gang culture (yes, asian gang culture), drugs, racism, violence..etc.

Dreams-Vision? Smh.


Dont get me wrong, I like the guy. I dont post much but always enjoy his posts. It really stuck with me, that particular comment.
 
There was a thread about this a few weeks ago where an author started a social experiment buying only from black-owned businesses to raise awareness about community wealth and how it differed in AA communities vs other minorities. Lots of people called the author racist while dodging the issue. Fun times.
 
I raged in a non-race related thread when someone casually posted a picture of a nerdy asian guy, and the responses were mainly:

"lol, calm down dude"
"that picture could be white and it would have the same affect"
"thats racist! lol"

and one that really stuck with me was from Dreams-Vision saying:

"school me on racism" (him being black), as if saying, "asians, complaining about racism? Tell me more about that."

So Chi's thoughts on Asian issues in western society being delegitimized is so spot on. Always appreciated how you're able to word it so much better than my "what, asians cant speak up?!" quips.

The "model minority" stereotype has the dual effect of casting a negative light on blacks and Latinos, while at the same time masking the inequalities Asian Americans face. The logic of the stereotype suggests that if Asians can do it, blacks and Latinos should be able to do it as well. The reality is that Asians Americans, blacks, and Latinos are facing similar types of discrimination, and all three groups are suffering to various degrees.
 
Dreams is here. Though for how long depends on the answer to this post.

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Uh Oh! Controversial thread!
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Now its no secret how far an unleveled playing field can effect people. Its really hard to move forward when you have shit schools, crappy communities, and parents who work all day and night.

However despite this there have been success stories. The most notable were the European immigrants of the early 20th century. From 1900 to 1950 the population of the United States more than doubled. Many of these people came here looking for a better life when social programs were nowhere near as existent as today. Yet despite this a majority of these people's descendants have moved up to middle class or beyond. However, Latinos and to a greater extent African-Americans, haven't undergone the same social mobility that others have.

Another examples are Asians are considered a "model minority". Many Asian-Americans have climbed that social mobility ladder and notorious for having children becoming high class citizens. Though the "secret formula" leaves some uncomfortable as Amy Chau's "big reveal" has shown (how accurate it is I cannot comment).

Now I can think of some reasons for this. Possibly the Asian immigrants we get tend to be those who already are from successful background? America's colleges are very well noted to have many exchange students attending them, especially Asian exchange students. As for the European immigrants, while they did live in a time lacking social welfare, there was also a job market that didn't require college degrees or special skills to receive a moderate paying job. You could graduate high school and BAM! Career opportunities right in front of you! This hasn't been the case in America for at least 40 years (10 years after the Civil Rights Movement).

So does anybody else on GAF have an opinion on this? I know its a touchy subject and that this thread will be full of *thisgonnabegood.gif*s, but I would really appreciate some quality discussion on this subject since its considered so taboo to talk about out in the open.

I mean, would you like to have some books recommended to you or something? There's nothing controversial about the topic. But you can generate controversial conversation by pooling together a concentrated amount of ignorance around such a topic.

If you seek education on the matter, materials can be provided. If you just want to watch people talk in circles about issues they know little about...well...GAF.
 
That's what I mean. Why are you guys so much more economically successful?

Amongst other things, there are the known cultural propensities of focusing on hard work and academic achievement despite environmental factors, which translates to real life accomplishments to a degree.

And yet your statement also reflects a factual inaccuracy that betray an example of the negative effect of the "model minority" stereotype. What is interesting is that the flip side of this cultural coin, the fact that Asians are also soft spoken, unassuming, and driven by work as opposed to by socialization and self promotion, has translated into a situation in corporate america where they're often hired but rarely advanced. This happens to the degree where many companies will see Black and Latino employees promoted in higher numbers over their Asian counterparts even when there's a larger pool of Asians present. The "bamboo ceiling" effect as it's colloquially known, isn't very highly publicized, but has most certainly been noted.

You'll note that few people will ever even know about, never mind bring up, this phenomenon when discussing accomplishments and success of Asians from a demographic analysis perspective. It's somewhat reflective of the demure propensities mentioned above, coincidentally. Something to think about when discussing the considerably greyer-than-you-think subject of minority accomplishments in the US.
 
Its my thread so I get to bump it if I want too...

In reality I still have more questions on this subject, but can't really find good sources online that dig deeper into this.

Are you in school somewhere? Is there a local university near by? It should be as simple as stopping by (or e-mailing) ________ (pick an ethnicity) Studies Department and asking for some book references. Then reading said boring academic books.

I don't have mine on me anymore (they're books in storage now), but none of this information is hard to find. It may not been in the tidy package you're looking for (a direct comparison of upward mobility between each ethnic group; perhaps someone should put it together), but you can most certainly read about the struggles of each individual group in separate academic publications.

Again, e-mail some Ethnic Studies departments and ask them for the names of some books to read. Don't expect to find any lengthy, scholalry work on the internet with the kind of depth required to understand or appreciate the breath, width and depth of these matters. They're far deeper and more complicated than an post here at GAF can offer...and though I can go into more detail than most with regard to the African American experience with regard to social mobility in the 20th...I simply don't have the energy.

If you're really interested, the best path has been laid out in this post. I wish you god speed and all the illumination you seek.
 
From my experience with asian americans a lot of their success stems from their culture. My parents while growing up said do your best in school while a lot of asian americans I've talked with said there parents told them you need to get straight A's, no questions asked. If I got a couple of B's and maybe a C it was no biggie, that was not even an option for them. Just my limited experience.
 
Are you in school somewhere? Is there a local university near by? It should be as simple as stopping by (or e-mailing) ________ (pick an ethnicity) Studies Department and asking for some book references. Then reading said boring academic books.

I don't have mine on me anymore (they're books in storage now), but none of this information is hard to find. It may not been in the tidy package you're looking for (a direct comparison of upward mobility between each ethnic group; perhaps someone should put it together), but you can most certainly read about the struggles of each individual group in separate academic publications.

Again, e-mail some Ethnic Studies departments and ask them for the names of some books to read. Don't expect to find any lengthy, scholalry work on the internet with the kind of depth required to understand or appreciate the breath, width and depth of these matters. They're far deeper and more complicated than an post here at GAF can offer...and though I can go into more detail than most with regard to the African American experience with regard to social mobility in the 20th...I simply don't have the energy.

If you're really interested, the best path has been laid out in this post. I wish you god speed and all the illumination you seek.

Okay fine, I admit it I'm being lazy. To the ethics department I go!
 
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