Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest
- Thread starter Dram
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Foxy Fox 39
Banned
Well all black people are up to no good. (I.e. armed)
How was he supposed to know the kid forgot his glock?
I wasn't saying you were mad about this. There isn't some mysterious level of evidence officers or judges need to have, like sheriff dingus is sitting around wondering about the probability the guy did it (maybe 3/4 sure is enough but not 3/5). If the officers thought he was full of it on the scene in and had no ulterior motive he'd have been arrested, same for any judge looking at the evidence.
^^Worded oddly, still about officers^^
Black Republican
Member
only 13 on msnbc?smh
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
The funny is how Eron is arguing against the guy being judged in the court of law..why would you be against that when someone lost their life?
Dude seriously gtfo with that. I didn't use the kid's "reaction" as ANY sort of justification for Zimmerman's actions, only as an explanation as to possibly why he fired. Not that it was justified AT ALL. In fact, I haven't even fucking TRIED to justify Zimmerman's actions. Like I said twice or 3 times before, I think he's guilty of at least manslaughter. The ONLY thing i have argued is the possibility that this evidence isn't good enough for a charge and a trial.
No, I'm saying if the cops/DA don't think they have enough evidence, there SHOULDN'T be a charge and the DA SHOULDN'T take it to trial because they risk getting it thrown out. Now that the FBI is involved maybe that won't happen.
slidewinder
Banned
That's normally how it works with self-defense... defenses. Florida's self-defense law is something different, though... an NRA wet-dream kind of different... and it doesn't work like that under Florida's self-defense law.
There is every reason to be outraged and sickened about every aspect of this thing, but people in this thread at least seem to want to ignore, over and over, how fucked-up THE LAW ITSELF is here. ALL THIS OTHER BULLSHIT is happening under a legal umbrella that couldn't be more accommodating of it.
MightyHealthy
Banned
Pretty much.
"I'm just trying to be rational and logical, unlike you guys..."
Always gotta be some contrarian who is more levelheaded than everybody else. *sigh*
When your main point is about "what might/might not hold up in the trial," in a case where there wasn't a proper investigation (much less an arrest), you're missing the point.
Devolution
Member
Don't you have to prove self-defense was necessary? So far the evidence proves contrary to any such claims on behalf of Zimmerman. So the law does not actually protect him, just a fucked up PD.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
Oh you mean running and screaming for help...because that's on the tape.
soundahfekz
Member
I'm just gonna ask you to cut the bullshit.
Tell us Enron, why is this case so emotionally charged? Why might the DA/ cops feel there isn't sufficient evidence to make a case given everything that has come out about this case?
Fill out activity sheet 1-1 and provide a response.
Well he did describe the kids actions as "fleeing" in the 911 tapes, after the kid noticed him(a strange man in a car following him at night in the rain)..
He then ignored the dispatcher telling him that they didn't need him to pursue the minor.
He then pursues on foot.
That in itself should nullify his "self defense" position that allowed him to continue walking free after killing the minor.
And then we have the 911 calls that have the kid's voice(which sounds distinctly different from Zimmermans voice) screaming for help in the background before the gunshot and silence. (The screams die almost instantaneously after the shot)
This corroborates with the earlier witness statements about the kid screaming for help before he died. The same statements that the police felt were misheard by the witnesses(Police said that Zimmerman was crying for help)...
That should be enough reasonable doubt to keep Zimmerman locked up till his trial and the detectives are done their investigation.
But no action has been taken at all by the PD.
PD itself has a bad history.
slidewinder
Banned
No. The burden, under Florida's law, is on the police to give probable cause to believe that it wasn't, and until they do, Zimmerman has immunity from even being arrested.
This?
I don't see much on the page that couldn't be explained away knowing that Zimmerman was armed and had a huge weight advantage on the kid.
Zoramon089
Banned
Is Enron playing devil's advocate or does he actually believe the things he's posting?!
I said none of those things. Stop lying and go re-read my posts. I offered no justification, and I plead for no sympathy for this dude. I talked purely about the evidence.
There is no bullshit. 1) We know about witness statements that are incomplete, 2) accusations of police changing those witness statements, 3) 911 audio recordings that illustrate the kid was crying for help but otherwise don't offer any clues as to the actual goings on, 4)Zimmerman changing his story, and we've heard nothing in the way of actual physical evidence collected asides from a dead teenager.
1) witness statements likely aren't going to be enough, especially since none of them seem to have seen the whole thing, only the aftermath.
2) this is going to be awfully hard to prove
3) as mentioned before, show the kid was calling for help and prove that....
4) Zimmerman changed his story.
If the cops botched the evidence collecting, then its likely that there isn't any to introduce. If they do have evidence then its been forwarded onto the state authorities and we aren't likely to hear about it until it gets to trial, if it gets to trial.
The case is so emotionally charged because it's a black teen and a white adult male, obviously.
Believe what? That this is a lot of circumstantial evidence lacking the concrete pieces to tie them all together to stand up in court?
soundahfekz
Member
Probable cause is at the mercy of the Sanford PD's interpretation. Remember? That's the whole controversy behind this case? The fact that there's immense precedence for an arrest and there hasn't been? The fact that the police corrected the witnesses at the scene of a death they weren't present at?
You guys aren't this dense. I'm starting to assume you're trolling.
Haint
Member
I've been out of this thread since the very early pages (due to being flamed mercilessly), but just happened to catch a news story on TV. From what I gathered Zimmerman is Hispanic (or he clearly looked so from the mug shot) and he apparently had a history of confronting other people in the neighborhood (i.e. not just blacks and including whites and other Hispanics)?
What's weird is, as soon as they have enough evidence for him to stand trial, it seems like the self defence claim will be null - from a few pages back via a lawyers analysis
essentially, the self defense law as it is, is useless to use in Zimmerman's defense, there is more than enough evidence to say that even if he was physically attacked first, that he provoked the force - what with his stalking and all.
I just don't know if the police can use that statute to arrest. It wouldn't make sense if they couldn't.
You know that would have made a better story for the PD and Zimmerman...
I'm genuinely surprised they didn't try it. How else are they going to try for the self-defense plea? They have to play the kid off as threatening, somehow.
soundahfekz
Member
Enron said:
The case isn't emotionally charged because of race. It is emotionally charged because of the obvious injustice that has been done to an innocent child who was going about his business and lost his life. His death has been swept under the rug by the Sanford PD under the guise of self defense, which we now is unlikely to be the case. The explosion of race into the issue is a byproduct of said injustice.
The fact that you're citing the effect rather than the cause... Jesus
Im not citing cause nor effect. Im trying to explain why this evidence might not be enough. Since you disagree with me, you seem to have attached all sorts of inferences about how I feel about this case. Two or three times you've tried to paint me as justifying Zimmerman's actions when two or three times i've said exactly the opposite. Pointing out potential holes in this case != taking Zimmerman's side.
Zimmerman's father is white and his mother is Hispanic. Why is this important though? I think you were flamed because you brought up some gang banger nonsense that had nothing to do with this story.
soundahfekz
Member
How is your above statement(s) NOT citing effect over cause?
Nah, it's the stupidity that surrounds the case.
A minor coming from a convenience store carrying skittles & ice tea was killed in cold blood because he was in the wrong neighborhood.
And how essentially the person who killed the kid walks free after early reports before his 911 conformations suggested he stalked the kid, then ignored dispatch and followed after the kid...
And how little evidence for self defense that Zimmerman had the police ignore that and put nearly more blame of the victim as if the likely scenario was an thin young minor overpowered a grown ass man that had weight & height on him and was carrying a weapon...
Not to mention the fact that Zimmerman was already know for his over zealousness. He got in a scuffle with an officer without being arrested in the past, which makes no sense since would normally taze your ass and lock you up, if you ignored them and moved even an inch towards them.
Then we have the members of the police department several scandals in the past.
It's gone beyond any petty race issue's in my mind, it's conflict of interest the PD obviously have, it's the cover up BS, it's the response of the PD towards a minors death. It's the poor choice of words the PD used several times already when talking to the media.
If it was a White minor being killed by a Black neighborhood watch I'd be outraged if the police did this shit. Though I doubt we'd ever be having that problem, especially in Florida.
Probably wasn't a "homicide" when Zimmerman reported it in.
doesn't sound like they took photos of Zimmerman's supposed bloody nose/head nor took into evidence the grass stained clothes either???
at least i haven't seen them getting mentioned
Which party didn't walk away from the confrontation alive?
Which party was not the instigator of the confrontation?
The answer to both is Trayvon. That alone warrants a homicide investigation.
slidewinder
Banned
It always is a matter of the PD's (or the grand jury's, or whoever's) interpretation. But in most states the fact that Zimmerman admitted killing this kid would be cause enough to arrest him, charge him, probably to secure an indictment, and therefore to try him. His claim of self-defense could then be weighed and tested at each step.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOpGAOXL5Uk&feature=channel
sorry if its been pointed out but during the police call i'm pretty sure zimmerman said "fucking coons".
go to 2:19 in and hear him say it.
sorry if its been pointed out but during the police call i'm pretty sure zimmerman said "fucking coons".
go to 2:19 in and hear him say it.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
race has nothing to do with it..
Oh wow, good ears. He muttered that shit under his breath!
This is the current pic of Zimmerman being circulated amongst the news:
To be honest, if that dude was following me, I'd be scared too, even though I'm about the same weight and height.
soundahfekz
Member
He was actually saying "loving you" as in singing the song by Minnie Riperton. Nothing to see here guys.
I think he's saying "fucking punks." I hear a strong P there.
It's easy for human brains to hear things in distorted noise, so it's good to take a step back and make sure we're not hearing what we're already told to hear.
MightyHealthy
Banned
While it's what helped the case receive national attention, and a major part of the narrative in quick-consumption media, it's not entirely just that.
Just look at the thread title! People were interested regardless of the race issue.
It's just as much, if not more, about false claims of self-defense.
That and the absolutely horrifying way the investigation was conducted. The lack of a drug/alcohol test on Zimmerman. A witness saying she heard Trayvon calling for help, but being corrected about it. Defending Zimmerman's self-defense argument despite the facts supporting Trayvon's self-defense.
Still, race IS a large factor. Guy reports a black male as "suspicious," an "asshole," and "up to no good or on drugs." Turns out, he's a 17 year old well-behaved kid armed with the devastatingly lethal weapons known as Skittles and Arizona Iced Tea.
soundahfekz
Member
I'm sitting here listening with two studio reference monitors used for professional audio mastering. It's quite clear he says fucking coons.
soundscream
Member
Oh wow great ears.
Dreams-Visions
Member
This is the current pic of Zimmerman being circulated amongst the news:
To be honest, if that dude was following me, I'd be scared too, even though I'm about the same weight and height.
HELL YEA. Looks like a fucking goon.
Florida, please stop embarrassing me. Some of us have to live here. :-(
Could be. I'd like to hear a clearer recording.
Nevermind, I change my answer, he's definitely saying this.
I'm not sure what he says, but he definitely mutters something right then... nice catch, it took me two listens to even hear it.
I listened to it over 6 times and at this point I can't tell if he said "punks" or "coons"... the sound is pretty distorted.
soundscream
Member
I heard it perfectly turn up your speakers he says fucking coons.
Dreams-Visions
Member
FINISH HIM.
Pure coincidence I said he looked like a fucking goon, btw. I didn't even click on that link. lol
slidewinder
Banned
He said "coons."
I'll admit, it's the middle of the night at my place and I'm listening to it with shitty quality headphones. So I'm not the best judge of what Mr. Zimmerman said... I wouldn't be surprised if he threw a racial slur in, he certainly would fit the profile of someone who does that(yes I realize I'm judging him based on his looks, just like he judged Trayvon by his looks)...
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