Amazing typo.
Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest
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Amazing typo.
Dreams-Visions
Member
lol oh shit. I think I'll let that one stand for amazingness.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/19/trayvon-martin-college-students-rally_n_1364734.html
The police found him dead, face down in a patch of grass about 70 feet from his father's home.
didn't see this before
face down?
why does that sound like he was shot from behind?
The police found him dead, face down in a patch of grass about 70 feet from his father's home.
didn't see this before
face down?
why does that sound like he was shot from behind?
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Don't people generally fall forward when losing consciousness?
The more pertinent question is, if Martin was towering over Zimmerman and pummeling him (which is his story, not mine), shouldn't Martin's blood be all over his clothes from that evening? If only there was some kind of force in the community, responsible for collecting the relevant facts in these ambiguous cases of teen death.
lol probably
I told you before, I think this guy is guilty. I did then and I do now, and I don't buy his self-defense argument.
What I can do, though, is seperate out what I think happened from what I think the evidence on hand shows.
Just because I don't think the evidence collected is enough doesn't mean i believe in Zimmerman - I just think they are going to need more evidence.
And you for some reason have a hard time understanding that and wish to make me some sort of pro-Zimmerman villain.
If the kid was shot from behind, pretty sure we'd know it by now. Like someone else already said, you reading too much into that.
The Lamonster
Member
Awesome how much this story has blown up this week.
Dude Abides
Banned
You have the right definition but you are applying it wrong. Witness said she heard Trayvon shouting for help, then gunshot, then he stopped. No more details are needed to infer that he was not shot in self-defense.
JCreasy
Member
Dreams-Visions
Member
I think that is very likely to happen. They haven't do anything right, at all.
in Florida, you can't.
Not encouraging. But in this case, I do feel like the public pressure will be an asset to justice. I hope so.
Him walking without any trial at all will probably spark...unpleasantries...across the country.
empty vessel
Member
Unfortunately, grand juries are ideal for white washing. The proceedings are secret and heavily influenced by the prosecutors assigned. Cases against police officers, for example, frequently get no billed by grand juries when prosecutors don't really want to prosecute. (Grand juries themselves have a record, at least in Texas, of being heavily populated by law enforcement types, despite the fact that they are supposed to be drawn from a cross-section of the community.)
Consider if the grand jury comes back with a no bill. That is an ideal way to insulate the Sanford PD and prosecutor's office.
I don't know what options, if any, exist under Florida law other than grand jury.
Mammoth Jones
Member
There's enough evidence for an arrest....
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
If it was racially motivated there is no way it can be anything but a cold blooded murder..
samus i am
Member
This man has been free now for almost a month! This is a fucking travesty.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I shared a similar concern. I had to look him up because I wasn't sure.
http://www.parkscrump.com/benjamincrump.htm
He appears to be solid, though I would like to see him look good in a TV interview. Wrongful death appears to be his specialty.
GhettoGamer
Member
Man i hope this guy has the jitters
Bay Maximus
Banned
Agreed. Although I'm sure he's more comfortable at his desk and in the courtroom than he is on TV.
------
Checked on this thread again against my better judgement.
GAF DEFENSE FORCE
IT
ONLY
DEFENDS
EVERYTHING
reggieandTFE
Member
I have a feeling Zimmerman will change his plea to insanity rather than self-defense by the time this goes to trial. 46 911 calls in a year?
Dreams-Visions
Member
what I don't understand is that if he wasn't officially registered with the Neighborhood Watch program, why did the police let him carry on like this at all?
Technically I think it's calls to the police, not 911. If it was 911 he should have been arrested just for that.
marathonfool
Member
Zimmerman was appointed or recognized as the captain of neighborhood watch by the neighbors. The watch program isn't an official legal authority. I speculate most neighborhood watches are not registered and done in ad hoc manner.
FO-totality
Poet Centuriate
How long until we expect Zimmerman to skip town?
Rocket Scientist
Member
Basically it took public outrage to get this case rolling, didn't it? Sad.
Jim E. Rossler
Banned
You guys are forgetting he's not in a watch program
Sho_Nuff82
Member
He could be enjoying a mai tai in Switzerland right now for all we know. As long as he's not under arrest, he's not obligated to stay in the country.
Except the national organization for Neighborhood watches say they don't know this guy from Joe on the street.
Mammoth Jones
Member
No one can know how this would have worked out differently but my gut feeling is if this kid looked like a 17 year old Jamie Lannister there wouldn't have been a fucking problem....
Do I think he set out that day to specifically kill a black person? No. But I definitely think a young black person is dead because of his incompetence, disobedience, ignorance, fear and assumptions based off of race.
What the fuck was "suspicious" about that kid? His hoodie? His ice tea? His skittles? His "urban wear"?
This guy was a wanna-be cop that liked playing that role. But he violated the CORE rules of a neighborhood watch: You watch. Let the cops be the cops.
Dreams-Visions
Member
official members of the Neighborhood Watch organization are prohibited from carrying firearms, afaik.
edit:
Zimmerman violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual, ABC News has learned. The manual from the Neighborhood Watch program states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers. And they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles."
According to Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch program, there are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group, which police were not aware of at the time of the incident.
According to Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch program, there are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group, which police were not aware of at the time of the incident.
For an arrest? Are you fucking kidding me?
This is enough for a conviction, never mind an arrest.
There is room for doubt in any case, but the standard is proof beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond any doubt whatsoever.
The 911 calls, the inconsistencies in Zimmerman's stories, the cell phone calls, the witnesses... if you use common sense and look at all the evidence and testimony piled up, I think for you to acquit Zimmerman of any charges at all, even as petty as manslaughter, you have to be in denial, or just playing devil's advocate.
This isn't even a case where the detailis are pretty sketchy. We know zimmerman killed someone after stalking them in the dark of night for several blocks and confronting them. Ther was no surprise jump from behind attack by Travyon against Zimmerman when you combine both Zimmerman's own 911 call and the witness accounts.
We know Zimmerman was physically larger than Travyon. We know he was stalking Travyon. We know he shot and killed Travyon. We know he confronted Travyon.
Or to put it another way:
We know Travyon was physically small and underweight for his age. We know he was walking home from a convenience store unarmed at night and was confronted by someone larger than him that had been stalking him for several blocks. We know this person shot and killed Travyon.
That person was Zimmerman.
The only thing anyone should even be considering arguing over is how severely zimmerman should be charged (and even that is becoming increasingly apparent). Should it be manslaughter? Murder in the 2nd degree? Murder in the 1st degree?
Saying he shouldn't be arrested or investigated? Wtf is wrong with you?
Alligatorjandro
Banned
Im glad to see this has made the major news outlets.
Dreams-Visions
Member
yep. and I vote for 1st Degree Murder, but I will accept 2nd Degree Murder...and the 25 year minimum sentence that accompanies it.
I wonder how unlikely it seems to him now...
Megidolaon
Member
What a horrible story. Saw it on yahoo today and listened to the 911 calls and it was really upsetting. Poor family. :*(
There was no reason anyone had to be shot and killed. That's the most baffling part. It's one thing to jump to conclusion and think someone is "suspicious" and report it. But to trail them and approach them and shoot them? What was he thinking!?
Self defense just doesn't cut it. If he was really that worried for his safety, he would not have chased the kid. Then when the kid justifiably gets physical, he shoots him in self-defense? No, that's not right.
There was no reason anyone had to be shot and killed. That's the most baffling part. It's one thing to jump to conclusion and think someone is "suspicious" and report it. But to trail them and approach them and shoot them? What was he thinking!?
Self defense just doesn't cut it. If he was really that worried for his safety, he would not have chased the kid. Then when the kid justifiably gets physical, he shoots him in self-defense? No, that's not right.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
1st degree implies he went out looking to kill Treyvon, which I don't think is the case and probably could not be proven. I think though 2nd degree is more plausible, he went into the situation looking for a fight but got more than he bargained for and ended up killing Treyvon.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I think he intended to inflict bodily harm on him, and figured he could shoot him if he felt compelled to/deemed it necessary (otherwise he wouldn't have left the vehicle). I think the attitude he left the call with, the pursuit and cornering of a running soon-to-be-victim, then unloading on him despite the screams for help.
I think he left the car feeling shooting him could be a reasonable and good option, believing he was following a criminal that he could finally bring to justice (to make up for all the ones who get away).
I think there is a good argument for First Degree. I will accept that Second Degree would be easier to establish.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._martin_s_killer_hasn_t_been_prosecuted_.html
There is an article by Slate's Emily Bazelon explaining the "stand your ground" law, which takes the self-defense to quite extreme and is the reason why police hasn't arrested against Zimmerman yet. The law not only gives the self-defender civil and criminal immunity, it also has "what the Florida Supreme Court calls true immunity. True immunity, the court said, means a trial judge can dismiss a prosecution, based on a Stand Your Ground assertion, before trial begins."
There is an article by Slate's Emily Bazelon explaining the "stand your ground" law, which takes the self-defense to quite extreme and is the reason why police hasn't arrested against Zimmerman yet. The law not only gives the self-defender civil and criminal immunity, it also has "what the Florida Supreme Court calls true immunity. True immunity, the court said, means a trial judge can dismiss a prosecution, based on a Stand Your Ground assertion, before trial begins."
Until you read the reactions on right-leaning blogs & forums. :|
What -possible- defence could there be?
Dreams-Visions
Member
Does not apply in this case, where he was the clear aggressor.
If the police had tried at all, they would have reached the same conclusion.
Mammoth Jones
Member
The problem isn't the law. It's the police. Last I read, that law is null and void if the person claiming self defense was the aggressor. There is no doubt in the 911 tape, witnesses and what not that Zimmerman *WAS* the aggressor. Without HIS direct aggressive action there could NOT have been any confrontation.
empty vessel
Member
Can you link to some of these that you browse, out of curiosity?
This hits right at the right's pro-vigilantism, so I'm not at all surprised that there would be a Zimmerman defense-force.
childplease
Banned
I actually like this law. Wish we had concealed carry in Illinois too.
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