BruiserBear
Banned
So you support ongoing grandstanding of this sort? People just trying to get their name in the paper.
Can they just arrest Zimmerman for fucks sake so I can stop seeing these stunts on a daily basis?
Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest
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So you support ongoing grandstanding of this sort? People just trying to get their name in the paper.
Can they just arrest Zimmerman for fucks sake so I can stop seeing these stunts on a daily basis?
wonderkins
Member
Or you could entertain a modicum of maturity and be selective in what news you engage. I know, I know, it's so much more difficult to be responsible for your own habits.
CrazyDogg77
Member
The tweet was him asking a friend about hitting a bus driver.
Dreams-Visions
Member
here in Florida, we do get gun training in order to concealed-carry a weapon. Not a lot, but certainly not nothing...and the possible ramifications of using a firearm are spelled out in great, consequential detail.
Still, in the heat of moments, people can make bad decisions because...well...they're people. And while they have some training, they're not getting some sort of pressure-packed training that an officer would get because we expect to never have to defend ourselves with firearms. Mr. Zimmerman appears to have made several bad decisions resulting in a death, and charges should have been filed and Zimmerman jailed until his day in court. Him NOT being charged as the lead investigator wanted and walking free today is *the only reason* this story is the talk of the nation. If he's picked up 3 weeks ago as planned, this story remains just another local page 2 story.
Miggytronz
Member
kuz then its just a dude shooting another dude.
BruiserBear
Banned
What?
I just walked into my cafeteria at work, only to see a news report on the congressman showing up in a hoodie on the TV. It's kind of unavoidable.
But honestly, I'm just tired of the various people trying to get themselves some attention out of this. People are pissed about this story, and we all expect Zimmerman is going to be charged with a crime, but the constant public stunts just get old.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
.
Zoe
Member
The bus driver tweet was from his cousin to him. Nobody had access to any of Martin's tweets until recently.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
You clearly have some sort of false equivalence thing going.
Clearly that is the same thing as smearing a kid who was murdered, posting and disseminating fake pictures of him, and trying to come up with ways to blame the victim.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Taking the issue out of the logical statement you made a replacing it with something neutral/ridiculous.:
A large majority of teddy bears are fuzzy.
This was a teddy bear.
ERGO it was fuzzy.
That's what was facepalm-worthy. It's an error on the face of it, and it also leads to biasing your results even further toward your percieved predispotion. In other words, with this logic not only will most teddy bears be fuzzy, they all will be.
Take it to even more of an extreme by substituing "large majority" with "50.0001 %." same results.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
I wish people would stick to the facts instead of the Skittles, 100lbs lighter, just a kid angles.
17 isn't just a kid, he was damn there a man. Size means nothing, some of the skinniest guys I've known were the ones you didn't mess with, no matter how big someone was. Skittles is a just a deflection of the story, we know he went to the store, it doesn't matter that he bought Skittles.. the Skittles angle is just used to portray him as even younger and innocent.
Doing the above just polarizes the issue the same way the right-wing drudge-types polarize it the other direction.
Nobody truly knows what happened in between those condos except Zimmerman and Martin, and Martin is dead. It's doubtful we'll ever know the truth.
Zimmerman should be tried in front of a jury, but as of now the outcome seems to favor reasonable doubt.
Zimmerman is at fault for what happened, as he started the situation... whether legally that will be the case, is far from certain.
It's a sad situation.
17 isn't just a kid, he was damn there a man. Size means nothing, some of the skinniest guys I've known were the ones you didn't mess with, no matter how big someone was. Skittles is a just a deflection of the story, we know he went to the store, it doesn't matter that he bought Skittles.. the Skittles angle is just used to portray him as even younger and innocent.
Doing the above just polarizes the issue the same way the right-wing drudge-types polarize it the other direction.
Nobody truly knows what happened in between those condos except Zimmerman and Martin, and Martin is dead. It's doubtful we'll ever know the truth.
Zimmerman should be tried in front of a jury, but as of now the outcome seems to favor reasonable doubt.
Zimmerman is at fault for what happened, as he started the situation... whether legally that will be the case, is far from certain.
It's a sad situation.
wonderkins
Member
CrazyDogg77
Member
Baconsammy
Banned
Yes, I support anything that keeps this story in the forefront until justice is done. I whole-heartedly support it.
Zoe
Member
The argument is that if Zimmerman's history can be used to form theories about what went down, so can Martin's.
empty vessel
Member
So we're back to a complaint about the use of the word "ergo." Gotcha.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Only relevant history. and only confirmed history. A tweet from his cousin to him, that is filled with slang, does not say much unless there is evidence of something actually happening. In Zimmerman's case, there is actual documented evidence of previous altercations, and aggression issues.
If Zimmerman tweeted something along the same lines are you telling me people wouldn't be bringing it up? If it was true (which Im not saying it is), it is relevant because Zimmerman is saying that he hit him first and had signs of being struck, along with a witness who saw Zimmerman being hit (i think). Hitting someone else unprovoked in the past would matter.
wonderkins
Member
BruiserBear
Banned
What are you talking about?
That second reply you quoted was in response to someone telling me to "select my news coverage" if I wanted to avoid these grandstanding stories. That has nothing to do with what you attempted to tie together there.
I said nothing regarding anyone smearing Trayvon, etc.
"Racially charged language" is apparently being defined very differently around here. To me it has to do with people throwing around racial accusations, where no evidence exists to support them. Whether they be in this case, or about this country as a whole. You seem to be talking about something completely different.
wonderkins
Member
Really. I find most of what you've posted scattershot, feeble, and poorly reasoned. So I can't say I find any worth in engaging your ludicrous reasoning.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
It's not the ergo, it's your conclusion that's the issue.
I've said this before-- you like to toss around a lot of smart language, but your critical reasoning is crap. And this is coming from somebody who generally agrees with your positions.
CrazyDogg77
Member
How do we know Trayvon didn't swing in self defense? Why do you assume it was unprovoked? And knowing us teenagers this situation probably never happened.
Zoe
Member
People aren't talking about what will go on in court at the moment. The main discussion is media portrayal.
Ok so he was in fact investigated after this happened. Do we know what evidence would be needed to get an arrest?
wonderkins
Member
Zoe
Member
The Miami Herald, which got the open records request for the police reports, only mentioned the pot.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
My bad, i miss-read who you were replying to, I thought it was a reply to me. But trying to flip it as if I am attempting to smear you is incredibly disingenuous. I do like how you insinuated earlier how I am blinded by prejudice, while you are above politics by being completely non-partisan and devoid of bias. Classy.
Also, there is a big difference in calling out racism, and doubling down on racist remarks, or insinuations. You can't honestly compare the two comments coming out between prominent members of both parties.
Oh yeah, and while I'm at it. While you did not, in fact, say anything in regards to the smears against Trayvon... I did. The comment you replied to stems from the comment I made about the smear campaign. You even bolded the sentence after it.
Dreams-Visions
Member
It requires more of a stretch to believe he was simply defending himself against an aggressive teen given what we know about this case. It's possible, but is among the less likely of possibilities. We know for a fact that the teen felt threatened by the stalking of this stranger. We know the stranger got out and followed him on foot, apparently frustrated and determined...a little afraid but feeling a little courageous now that he's packin'. We know there was a confrontation and altercation occurred and a dead kid afterward. We know that the police failed to do the most basic of reasonable due diligence with regard to drug/alcohol testing on the shooter, correcting of eye/ear witnesses, and live re-enactments with the shooter at the scene of the crime (helping him get his story straight for a possible trial????). We know that Zimmerman's story has changed. We know Zimmerman has a history of violence. We know Zimmerman's father is a retired Judge, and probably had strings pulled for him in the past (expunged assault, dropped domestic abuse).
We also know that Trayvon has no history of violence. He apparently has smoked some weed, likes girls, rap music, Arizona Iced Tea, skittles, basketball and hoodies. We know he's a lightweight. And again, we know he knew he was being followed and was scared by it.
That's all we know for sure. Just about everything else is what Zimmerman claims happened. A story which has changed more than once since the night of the shooting.
Based on what we know, the biggest stretch is to look at all that and say, "yep...it was probably self-defense like he said it was in the 3rd revision of his story." This is why people are irritated. Not by the fact that there is a possibility--however remote--that he defended himself legally in the face of a belief he was going to be gravely injured...but by the fact that some have defaulted to the position in the face of the changing stories, the police misconduct, leakage of Zimm's criminal background, etc. and have spent more time trying to shit on the dead kid or find some way to defend Zimmerman like he were their kin.
All anyone has really wanted here is a proper trial with proper evidence collection and police conduct. To the degree we haven't gotten that offends people and reminds some of the second-class treatment blacks sometimes receive from law enforcement...which bothers some who desperately want to believe we live in a post-racial society where the police and society in general never do (or don't do) anything based on race/bigotry/stereotyping. For them it appears to be like finding out for the first time there is no Santa. Strong resistance until overwhelming evidence is presented...and maybe not even accepting it then.
these questions should be asked by detectives or prosecutors. The fact that they weren't is part and parcel to the problem people have with this case.
correct. and the law is working according to plan. Instead we have this massive failure of police due-diligence resulting in where we are now.
The lead prosecutor believed weeks ago that he had enough reason to believe something wrong happened here to want to have him arrested. His higher ups said "no".
empty vessel
Member
Dude, you're the one who thinks it is irrational to infer from a mountain of empirical data that the race of the victim affects criminal justice outcomes that the race of the victim in this case is affecting the criminal justice outcome. This is despite your already expressed belief that the race of the victim in this case is affecting the criminal justice outcome, which you based on, apparently, nothing at all.
I mean, seriously. You are taking issue with my use of the word "ergo," which implies deductive reasoning. That post was a simplification of a prior post that expressed the inference that Martin's race is affecting the outcome based on knowledge of the mountain of empirical data that ... a victim's race affects criminal justice outcomes.
That's why I asked if it was the rumored reason (because I think the tweet was made around the time he was suspended, but I'm not sure).
I would think that the bus driver incident would be fairly easy to verify, especially if it involved a school bus driver. Most people just don't walk away from something like that without anything coming from it.
wonderkins
Member
smart language used as an insinuation and pejorative.
That's worthy of a lollerskatez.
That's worthy of a lollerskatez.
Open Source
Banned
Well, the numbers don't lie. This is something I'd like to look at more in-depth at some point. As I mentioned earlier, I think the criminal justice system is one of this country's major failings.
We dont know...thats what Im saying. I wish people would realize when I brought up those other points Im not saying thats what happened, or even that its probable, just that its possible.
Dreams-Visions
Member
If you'd like some articles or something, I can certainly dig some up. I have them in print form somewhere, but they're probably online now if I can remember their titles.
But what we DO know paints pictures and gives us a fair idea of what happened and why, and the probabilities of other scenarios.
There should be enough here about Zimmerman and his history, police conduct, and Zimm's changing story to not pass the smell test to your nose. At minimum, you should be fairly fucking skeptical of he and the police at this point. The lead investigator was unconvinced of Zimmerman's story and wanted to press charges. All this should add up to something for you, and it shouldn't be, "yea, seems most reasonable that he did nothing wrong, despite the lies and misconduct."
Zoe
Member
Yeah, apparently it was made less than a week before. I've only heard about the suspension in relation to the pot though. If something did happen, it's possible it had no relation to the school system.
CrazyDogg77
Member
If you don't what happened why are you bringing it up as a counterargument to what we know did happen. If we do that we'll have all kind of stupid and ridiculous stuff being said.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
The point, you are missing it.
I don't believe race played a part in the cops' behavior, I said it was likely. You took it all the way to a given, and built from there.
*That* is what was faceplam-worthy.
You can't take the general case and assume it applies it to the specific. It doesn't work that way.
Baconsammy
Banned
Police wanted to arrest him. State attorney said no. Now a new person is investigating and I'm willing to give them all the time they need to get it right. The biggest issue being if the original police-work is a help or a hinderance. According to one of the officers on the scene that night that wanted to have him arrested, he spent 6 hours that night going over the scene and concluded an arrest should be made because Zimmerman's story didn't sound convincing to him.
Dude Abides
Banned
Nope. Florida's evidentiary code does not allow evidence of past conduct to show conformity therewith, unless an exception applies, but none of them do here. See 90.404.
http://law.justia.com/codes/florida/2005/TitleVII/ch0090.html
It is similar to the Federal Rules.
He should've been arrested on the spot. All this bullshittery is just making matters worse.
I like the cut of your jib.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I'll say this, from my time on a Grand Jury:
If the Grand Jury doesn't return an indictment, then the State's Attorney is throwing the case intentionally. Why do I say this?
1) Grand Jury doesn't need anything more than the *likelyhood* that there has been a crime
2) There is no defense attorney, just the State's Attorney making the case
3) Grand Juries get lazy after days and weeks of seeing cases that are all being indicted because of 1 and 2 above, and just say "indict" to pretty much everything by reflex after a while.
If the Grand Jury doesn't return an indictment, then the State's Attorney is throwing the case intentionally. Why do I say this?
1) Grand Jury doesn't need anything more than the *likelyhood* that there has been a crime
2) There is no defense attorney, just the State's Attorney making the case
3) Grand Juries get lazy after days and weeks of seeing cases that are all being indicted because of 1 and 2 above, and just say "indict" to pretty much everything by reflex after a while.
Baconsammy
Banned
I don't support that at all. Apparently the evidence supported his claims, as did the witness accounts. Don't arrest someone just to arrest someone, especially if it risks fucking the case over in the future. More police work needed to be done, and it apparently never got done (ie. why were his clothes not taken into evidence? He just fucking shot someone and no one thought it might be worth their time to collect some evidence?). One of the lead officers thought it sounded shitty though and requested an arrest be made, but he got shot down by the State's Attorney's office. But that makes me wonder why this police officer didn't conduct a more thorough investigation the night it all went down? Perhaps his superiors told him not to. I want to hear more about the initial investigation and why it went so wrong.
Spike Lee is an irresponsible moron. Just like the guy that first tweeted the address and told all his followers to retweet it. If anything happens to those old people, I would love to see Spike and the other idiots be held accountable.
This is like someone saying, and considering this thread someone probably has, that statistically blacks are the aggressor in a majority of cases when it's a black and hispanic altercation ergo Trayvon is the aggressor.
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