Support NeoGAF

[@MUWANdo]

I think the problem is that "if your game is good" isn't a guarantee that "the masses" will buy it. Some of the greatest games ever (well... according to my 'fruity' tastes) have bomba'ed spectacularly)

Like you mention - these policies are old polices - i'd like to think they've been updated but really this sort of policy review should be rolling and happening every few months given the speed the environment moves. If Nintendo are serious about going head to head with Apple and others then they need to be much more nimble in terms of reacting to policy that throws up blockages to getting content up and out on their system

To my mind--and I'm not defending the threshold policy--6k isn't really much of a hurdle to beat, even now, as long as you can build some sort of hype for your product. I mean, let's take MDK2 as an example: in the months (years?) between the initial announcement and the eventual release there was practically zero promotion whatsoever, and it didn't even get a lot of coverage post-release... why not? It's a well-regarded game with an established pedigree, it's head and shoulders above most of the WiiWare pack, and there are games press outlets that will promote anything and interview anyone who shows them some interest; furthermore, both the devs and the publisher must have been aware of the threshold, so you'd think they'd at least want to ensure they made a profit once the game came out. Why didn't this game get any real coverage?

Press isn't everything, of course--MDK2 had to compete with the impending HD version on other platforms, among other things--but generally speaking, it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to get <10k to buy your game, provided that you could communicate to people that it doesn't suck. (Maybe this article will cause a spike in MDK2's sales... I really hope so.)

Ultimately, though, it's Nintendo's fault for letting WiiWare collapse so spectacularly, and for just shrugging their shoulders and moving on instead of doing anything substantial to change thing.

 

[Medalion]

Nintendo must've killed his parents

 

[DCharlie]

Nintendo must've killed his parents

i think it's more like this :

"Thank you young crone! Here is a purse of money...

... that i'm not going to give to you"

 

[@MUWANdo]

So - have Nintendo removed this threshold? Not just for their current and future platforms, but for WiiWare as well?

Their other platforms don't have such a threshold, AFAIK, but WiiWare still does. As posted earlier, Nintendo is completely inelastic and hasn't changed its protocols in any substantial way since WiiWare launched, and the same is true of DSiWare--once they've decided how things are gonna work, nothing ever changes.

The eShop environment is (allegedly, I don't know any eShop developers personally) much more friendly and flexible, and regional branches of Nintendo have a little more autonomy, which is why people are more optimistic about it, and why they're hopeful for the Wii U.

It's hard to know for sure, though, because the only people willing to publicly talk about this stuff are indie devs whose games are floundering, because they have nothing to lose. You'll never get a frank and candid evaluation of the service from any of the success stories.

 

[BGBW]

Blah blah blah fanboys boo hoo hoo

I love how you keep dismissing people as whiney fanboys. If you must know, Nintendo fans are usually the most critical of the company. Of course there is a big difference between being critical and slagging off. Saying the Wii is "not a console" isn't critical, it isn't logical it's just plain stupid. That's the only thing people really hated about this guy. The rest is just presenting two sides of an argument because that's how a discussion works. But if they don't agree with him or you they are apparently just clingy fans.

 

[Fabrik]

Quote: "For the Wii U, I once again don't get it."

/thread

 

[beril]

I always find it a bit silly when people complain about the 40 MB limit.

It's a well known limit, it's easily justifiable by the hardware limitations, and the service is intended for smaller type of games; If you want to make a massive AAA production for it then you're doing it wrong. For most other types of games it should be plenty

XBLA used to have a 50 MB limit, but that was gradually raised and then abolished to the point where there is hardly any difference between XBLA games and retail games. You could see that as a good thing if you want an all downloadable future, but it lessens the XBLAs value as a place for "arcade" games and where smaller productions can compete on more equal terms

 

[FieryBalrog]

I love how you keep dismissing people as whiney fanboys. If you must know, Nintendo fans are usually the most critical of the company.

Yes, that's me. I've owned a DS lite, a DSi and a 3DS, and played the crap out of all of them and loved them. I have never owned anything by Microsoft or Sony, and don't plan to. I use a PC for all my other gaming. I'm a big fan of Nintendo even if they weren't a big part of my childhood (which was all PC & Mac games).

Still, their complete ineptitude when it comes to online infuriates me. As does their price gouging on ancient hardware.

 

[@MUWANdo]

XBLA used to have a 50 MB limit, but that was gradually raised and then abolished to the point where there is hardly any difference between XBLA games and retail games. You could see that as a good thing if you want an all downloadable future, but it lessens the XBLAs value as a place for "arcade" games and where smaller productions can compete on more equal terms

Sure, but it's also made XBLA immensely more popular and more profitable. The demand was there for a bigger cap, Microsoft complied, everyone benefited. If Nintendo was even half as flexible as Microsoft has been in this space then maybe WiiWare/DSiWare would be such a wasteland, and maybe people wouldn't be writing off a digital future on Wii U before it's even launched.

 

[Medalion]

Wii U not getting it... Can't argue there

A lot of questions remain

 

[DCharlie]

If you must know, Nintendo fans are usually the most critical of the company.

no

fucking

chance

not in a million years.


then again - each companies rabid fanboys are equally as annoying, it's just Nintendo's ones are the most visible at the moment so the answer to who is the most critical is probably... um... i dunno... people who own all the machines and don't give a shit who wins?

 

[Medalion]

Not Nintendo fans

Ones that USED TO be Nintendo fans

 

[beril]

Sure, but it's also made XBLA immensely more popular and more profitable. The demand was there for a bigger cap, Microsoft complied, everyone benefited. If Nintendo was even half as flexible as Microsoft has been in this space then maybe WiiWare/DSiWare would be such a wasteland, and maybe people wouldn't be writing off a digital future on Wii U before it's even launched.

But they can't be as flexible because the Wii doesn't have the storage space, and the games can't run directly from the SD cards. That's just the simple truth; allowing developers to release games that take up half the Wiis internal memory would be bad for everyone

 

[mclem]

...

He elaborated even further on his previous points and backed them up even more.

He didn't actually cover the lotcheck bit... which happens to be the statement I find most disputable anyway.

 

[wsippel]

Sure, but it's also made XBLA immensely more popular and more profitable. The demand was there for a bigger cap, Microsoft complied, everyone benefited. If Nintendo was even half as flexible as Microsoft has been in this space then maybe WiiWare/DSiWare would be such a wasteland, and maybe people wouldn't be writing off a digital future on Wii U before it's even launched.

With more than 500 releases in just three years, DSiWare is by no means a wasteland. Quite a few quality releases, too. The problem is that there's very little exposure.

 

[walking fiend]

no

fucking

chance

not in a million years.


then again - each companies rabid fanboys are equally as annoying, it's just Nintendo's ones are the most visible at the moment so the answer to who is the most critical is probably... um... i dunno... people who own all the machines and don't give a shit who wins?

I know, people who don't resort to calling other fanboys, etc. and use sound arguments which they can back with legitimate facts without being emotional?

 

[fernoca]

With more than 500 releases in just three years, DSiWare is by no means a wasteland. Quite a few quality releases, too. The problem is that there's very little exposure.

That too. The way the WiiWare/Shop was designed, there's not much. Nintendo did the usual "put the game under New Releases" and the PR/emails they send every week. Not much else.

Then again, what did Interplay did as the publisher in this case? The game was announced on June 2010 and released on May 2011. Nearly a year later and nothing in between.

You go to IGN and aside the announcement of the game coming, there's nothing else...no preview; not even a review.

You go to Metacritic, and only 3 sites reviewed the game.

And is not like it was "too late". Games like MotoHeroz and FAST were released that year and there were multiple previews leading to the release and then the reviews. The games I guess did well, since Shin'en and RedLinx are still supporting Nintendo apparently, with Shin'en already confirming support for Wii U and supporting the 3DS. RedLinx is part of Ubisoft now so we'll see.

 

[evolution]

I don't think theres anything wrong with calling someone a fanboy, if that's what they think. If you are not a fanboy then you disregard and move on, no point in crying about it.

On topic: maybe if Nintendo had created an gaming environment that embraced everyone 3rd parties would give a shit.

 

[Argyle]

Their other platforms don't have such a threshold, AFAIK, but WiiWare still does. As posted earlier, Nintendo is completely inelastic and hasn't changed its protocols in any substantial way since WiiWare launched, and the same is true of DSiWare--once they've decided how things are gonna work, nothing ever changes.

The eShop environment is (allegedly, I don't know any eShop developers personally) much more friendly and flexible, and regional branches of Nintendo have a little more autonomy, which is why people are more optimistic about it, and why they're hopeful for the Wii U.

It's hard to know for sure, though, because the only people willing to publicly talk about this stuff are indie devs whose games are floundering, because they have nothing to lose. You'll never get a frank and candid evaluation of the service from any of the success stories.

If that is how Nintendo rolls, with the rules completely set in stone and inflexible, I don't understand why anyone would think it will get substantially better on the Wii U. Sure, the terms seem reasonable by today's standards, but what happens in a few years when the rest of the industry shifts once again?

 

[A Black Falcon]

That too. The way the WiiWare/Shop was designed, there's not much. Nintendo did the usual "put the game under New Releases" and the PR/emails they send every week. Not much else.

Then again, what did Interplay did as the publisher in this case? The game was announced on June 2010 and released on May 2011. Nearly a year later and nothing in between.

You go to IGN and aside the announcement of the game coming, there's nothing else...no preview; not even a review.

You go to Metacritic, and only 3 sites reviewed the game.

And is not like it was "too late" Games like MotoHeroz and FAST were released that year and there were multiple previews leading to the release and then the reviews. The games I guess did well, since Shin'en and RedLinx are still supporting Nintendo apparently (with Shin'en already confirming support for Wii U and supporting the 3DS. RedLinx is part of Ubisoft now so we'll see.

Marketing would require something called "money", which Interplay has very little of. Their WiiWare Stonekeep game released this January got a similar reception.

I wonder if their DSiware Clayfighter game will ever release...

 

[wsippel]

If that is how Nintendo rolls, with the rules completely set in stone and inflexible, I don't understand why anyone would think it will get substantially better on the Wii U. Sure, the terms seem reasonable by today's standards, but what happens in a few years when the rest of the industry shifts once again?

There's pretty much no room to change anything for the better (for developers). If the industry shifts, it'll most likely get worse - in which case Nintendos inflexibility would actually be a good thing, no?

 

[fernoca]

Marketing would require something called "money", which Interplay has very little of. Their WiiWare Stonekeep game released this January got a similar reception.

I wonder if their DSiware Clayfighter game will ever release...

That too (Interplay not doing that well lately).
Stonekeep came kinda out of nowhere and is not like it blasted the charts on fire.

 

[DragonSworne]

Can't figure out the Wii U? I'm not surprised, he thought porting MDK2 to WiiWare was smart...

This guy really doesn't strike me as the creative type, given by his quotes and the games he has worked on, ports.

He is no Kojima.

 

[@MUWANdo]

With more than 500 releases in just three years, DSiWare is by no means a wasteland. Quite a few quality releases, too. The problem is that there's very little exposure.

When I said "wasteland" I meant in terms of quality third-party releases, of which I'd argue there are even less than on WiiWare, and almost none in the pipeline. (There's definitely a lot of good first-party stuff to make up the difference, although you're SOL if you're not a puzzle fan.)

If that is how Nintendo rolls, with the rules completely set in stone and inflexible, I don't understand why anyone would think it will get substantially better on the Wii U. Sure, the terms seem reasonable by today's standards, but what happens in a few years when the rest of the industry shifts once again?

Just to be clear, there is a definite distinction to be made between the way the eShop is being managed, and the way WiiWare/DSiWare operates. The sort of rigid inflexibility that crippled those services is being phased out with the eShop, and in the nine months or so since it launched they've already made more substantial, iterative improvements to the eShop than they ever did to the other services, and there are more coming all the time. Features and strategies proposed by Iwata at investors' briefings are being rolled out relatively quickly, and his broader comments suggest that the upcoming Nintendo Network will allow third parties a lot more freedom in all aspects of the online/digital business, including DD.

Again, it's hard to definitely demonstrate how it's improved when no-one's talking and the games on the service are so slow in coming out, but the mere fact that they've already promised and delivered on so much in a relatively short period is enough to remain optimistic, IMO.

That doesn't mean a whole lot to WiiWare/DSiWare devs, because for all intents and purposes Nintendo seems to have written those services off and moved on.

 

[@MUWANdo]

Marketing would require something called "money", which Interplay has very little of. Their WiiWare Stonekeep game released this January got a similar reception.

I wonder if their DSiware Clayfighter game will ever release...

It absolutely wouldn't. Seriously, if you send an email to IGN or Nintendo-Life or any other random games press outlet and offer 'em a demo code or an interview or some exclusive video they'll plug your wares with no hesitation.

As for Stonekeep... no amount of promotion would have saved that pile.

 

[remnant]

Why should he? Nintendo has been incompetent about 3rd party support forever. It's on them to get people like him back.

And the less people make excuses for Nintendo's inexcusably bad practices re: online and digitial distribution, and why developers should feel obligated to support them, the better.

becuase it's common fucking sense. Evey publisher and developer is trying to diversity and hit as many platorms as they can to make as much money as possible. Even successful mobile games find themselves jumping across platforms. When that guy is finished on this project and looking for a new one, is he going to tell potential partners that he refuses to work on Nintendo platforms because 3 years ago Nintendo fucked up.

Yes Wiiware infrastructure sucked. Whoop de fucking doo. Shit changes. By your logic no one should be making iOS games because the app store had a shitton of problems when Apple first launched it, or even the android marketplace now with all the big problems like fragmented hardware.

 

[Sentenza]

So, why people are angry with him exactly?
He had an awful experience working with a company and he doesn't want to do it anymore.
Sounds like a solid argument to me.

 

[wsippel]

So, why people are angry with him exactly?
He had an awful experience working with a company and he doesn't want to do it anymore.
Sounds like a solid argument to me.

Your question has been answered at least a dozen times in this thread.

 

[subversus]

So, why people are angry with him exactly?
He had an awful experience working with a company and he doesn't want to do it anymore.
Sounds like a solid argument to me.

he said that Wii is a toy

 

[remnant]

So, why people are angry with him exactly?
He had an awful experience working with a company and he doesn't want to do it anymore.
Sounds like a solid argument to me.

He said that along with a bunch of general garbage that has been debunked since 2007 and his "I refuse to work with Nintendo ever again" argument is mostly based off of stuff that has changed. He has the right to never work with Nintendo again, though good luck with that considering the way this industry is evolving.

 

[BGBW]

So, why people are angry with him exactly?
He had an awful experience working with a company and he doesn't want to do it anymore.
Sounds like a solid argument to me.

This is the main Tweet people had a beef with. The rest is just a discussion about the point he raised.
https://twitter.com/#!/TrentOster/status/192193121835155457

 

[Vinci]

So, why people are angry with him exactly?
He had an awful experience working with a company and he doesn't want to do it anymore.
Sounds like a solid argument to me.

Devs traditionally didn't work on Apple platforms. Nowadays? Times change. Holding a grudge isn't necessarily the best method for building a successful line of business. Now, if Nintendo retains some of its more infuriating ways with its newer platforms? He's free to disregard them. I've no issue with devs wanting to avoid bullshit from platform holders, but it shouldn't be based on history alone. Every successful business reevaluates its strategy routinely - and that goes for Nintendo and Trent Oster.

 

[wsippel]

He said that along with a bunch of general garbage that has been debunked since 2007 and his "I refuse to work with Nintendo ever again" argument is mostly based off of stuff that has changed. He has the right to never work with Nintendo again, though good luck with that considering the way this industry is evolving.

It's not debunked. His claims are true and his complaints are perfectly understandable. The problem is that the way his complaints were worded, many people evidently think the problems he mentioned would also apply to more recent Nintendo online services like the eShop. Nobody expects him to change his mind or apologize or anything, but he should have clarified that he was talking about the Wii and doesn't know anything about the Wii U eShop (which is the platform he was asked about in the first place).

 

[Cheech]

He said that along with a bunch of general garbage that has been debunked since 2007 and his "I refuse to work with Nintendo ever again" argument is mostly based off of stuff that has changed. He has the right to never work with Nintendo again, though good luck with that considering the way this industry is evolving.

If you're a small dev, wouldn't you want to release your game on platforms whose holders haven't kicked you in the nuts in the past? I continue to be amazed by this thread and the revulsion some people have to the idea that maybe Nintendo is flawed in some way. Having been a huge NES fan back in the day, I remember only too well when they got sued for anti-competitive practices related to their treatment of third parties and retailers. And this was over twenty years ago, FFS.

Nintendo is a company that has *always* merely tolerated third parties, as opposed to embracing them. Sure, they may finally be seeing the writing on the wall in regard to their competition, but it's not hard to understand where MDK guy is coming from if you've been following the industry for as long as some of us have.

 

[Glass Rebel]

If you're a small dev, wouldn't you want to release your game on platforms whose holders haven't kicked you in the nuts in the past? I continue to be amazed by this thread and the revulsion some people have to the idea that maybe Nintendo is flawed in some way. Having been a huge NES fan back in the day, I remember only too well when they got sued for anti-competitive practices related to their treatment of third parties and retailers. And this was over twenty years ago, FFS.

Nintendo is a company that has *always* merely tolerated third parties, as opposed to embracing them. Sure, they may finally be seeing the writing on the wall in regard to their competition, but it's not hard to understand where MDK guy is coming from if you've been following the industry for as long as some of us have.

Yeah, this isn't what's happening with most of the members who have posted mor than once in this thread and are actually discussing the thread.

 

[jimi_dini]

he said that Wii is a toy

Color me shocked, but I thought all the consoles were toys.

 

[joedan]

What I don't understand is why is it that he supposes that triple A titles can't be made on the WiiU. What about the WiiU from a technological perspective would prevent any company from making a blockbuster on the console? I don't get it. Or is he just full of crap?

 

[Criminal Upper]

I love how a guy who's remaking Baldur's Gate has no idea how a tablet controller would come in handy at all.

Truly, a master of his craft.

 

[Sentenza]

Your question has been answered at least a dozen times in this thread.

Sorry, I was still waiting for *convincing* argument.

he said that Wii is a toy

And he's right. In the sense he meant it.
It's in the first post:

Oster went on to call the Wii a toy instead of a console, citing the system's low attach rate. "You buy a Wii, Wii sports and never buy another game," Oster said. "Bad for devs."

Isn't that exactly how it usually goes with Wii?

 

[BGBW]

Isn't that exactly how it usually goes with Wii?

Oh boy here we go... I really wish people read threads before they posted.

Data has been posted in this very thread to show that the Wii has a healthy attach rate.

Also how is the Wii not be a console? Do you believe a console is hardrives with games on it?

Color me shocked, but I thought all the consoles were toys.

The full quote was "The Wii is a toy, not a console" so in reality he is saying "The Wii is a toy, not a toy", which as I'm sure you agree is logically nonsense.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Isn't that exactly how it usually goes with Wii?

I'm not sure if this is the most up to date one, it probably isn't but the reality hasn't changed all that much until this last year

So, no.. actually. It isn't exactly how it usually goes with Wii.

 

[Criminal Upper]

Sorry, I was still waiting for *convincing* argument.


And he's right. In the sense he meant it.
It's in the first post:

Isn't that exactly how it usually goes with Wii?

Basically everything you assume is wrong.

 

[Haunted]

It becomes an obvious choice eventually - devs won't jump through hoops if there's a route-of-least-resistance to profit.

This right here.

It's also something MS and Sony had to learn as they've been one-upped by Steam in that regard in the last two years or so.

 

[plufim]

Isn't that exactly how it usually goes with Wii?

Nope, but hey, don't let reality get in the way or anything.


The attach rate is about the same as for the PS3.

 

[Sentenza]

I'm not sure if this is the most up to date one, it probably isn't but the reality hasn't changed all that much until this last year

So, no.. actually. It isn't exactly how it usually goes with Wii.

Yeah, I'd like to see the breakdown for those third party software sales.

Basically everything you assume is wrong.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOk.
I'm not really going into an argument with Nintendo fans.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Jools Watsham's (Renegade Kid's) blog is well worth reading, considering some of the misinformation flying around here. After all, he had a major success with Mutant Mudds on the 3DS eShop.
Read it. It's the perfect antidote to Oster's nonsense.

http://joolswatsham.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/publishing-games-on-3ds-is-hard-i-give.html

Deserves quoting / reposting. Maybe if Oster and his publisher had followed those basic guidelines they would have done better.

I feel bad for him and his team that they didn't have the experience they wanted, and there are some salient truths that make him worthy of pity: the WiiWare market is way worse than 3DS eShop, and that 6000 payment threshold sounds way harsh. They should only be deducted hosting costs and royalty percentage imo...

having said that, his attitude and ego-tripping, milking this with a follow up article etc... can't say I'm a fan.

 

[plufim]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOk.
I'm not really going into an argument with Nintendo fans.

Well Ok then! See you in a month when you barge into another Nintendo thread, spout the same nonsense, and leave before you can be corrected! After all, anyone who disagrees is clearly an irrational fanboy.

 

[Sentenza]

Well Ok then! See you in a month when you barge into another Nintendo thread, spout the same nonsense, and leave before you can be corrected! After all, anyone who disagrees is clearly an irrational fanboy.

Oh, I never made a post even barely related to Nintendo Wii on this forum until today, but hey, don't let reality get in your way.

Beside, yes, let's keep ignoring how on Wii few franchises sell gargantuan amounts of copies (ironically enough, not the ones popular on a gaming community) and pretty much all the other software struggles to reach profit.
Wii software sales dropped for more than 50% in the last twelve months, but that's me being a hater and they are doing absolutely fine.

But that wasn't even the point, in the first place.
Here we have a developer talking about his direct experience with Nintendo, which was apparently awful for plenty of reasons, and tons of people rabid cause he bad mouthed then.

 

[Criminal Upper]

Well Ok then! See you in a month when you barge into another Nintendo thread, spout the same nonsense, and leave before you can be corrected! After all, anyone who disagrees is clearly an irrational fanboy.

This pretty much nails it.

"Oh you're disagreeing with me? Posting facts and shit? Well keep doing that, you irrational fanboys!"

smh

 

[plufim]

Oh, I never made a post even barely related to Nintendo Wii on this forum until today, but hey, don't let reality get in your way.

Beside, yes, let's keep ignoring how on Wii few franchises sell gargantuan amounts of copies (ironically enough, not the ones popular on a gaming community) and pretty much all the other software struggles to reach profit.
Wii software sales dropped for more than 50% in the last twelve months, but that's me being a hater and they are doing absolutely fine.

Attach rate on Wii is about the same as PS3. You started off by saying you agreed with the "people only buy Wii Sports".

Turns out that is wrong!

I should have done some research on your post history before assuming you were one of the many who jump into threads with an opinion, and when it is challenged, just go "pfft fanboys" and leave. But hey, you know what would have been easier? Just reading a few pages of this thread before posting in the first place.