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Legend of Korra |OT| - Saturday Mornings Just Got Better
- Thread starter Wiseblade
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This sounds like the premise of fan fiction.
googleplex
Member
Although I'm sure lots of people knew this already:
But today I learned that both Monk Gyatso (Aang's mentor) and Tenzin (Aang's son) were named after Tenzin Gyatso, The current Dalai Lama
But today I learned that both Monk Gyatso (Aang's mentor) and Tenzin (Aang's son) were named after Tenzin Gyatso, The current Dalai Lama
Infinite Justice
Member
Recurring extra confirmed.
Although I'm sure lots of people knew this already:
But today I learned that both Monk Gyatso (Aang's mentor) and Tenzin (Aang's son) were named after Tenzin Gyatso, The current Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama secret airbender confirmed
Ultimadrago
Member
Although I'm sure lots of people knew this already:
But today I learned that both Monk Gyatso (Aang's mentor) and Tenzin (Aang's son) were named after Tenzin Gyatso, The current Dalai Lama
Yeah I learned that recently when I was reading stuff on the Avatar wiki. I thought it was pretty cool.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
There's a difference between what's actually in the show, and what people project onto it. The fact is, even if they want to have super deep characters and plot, they can't really do it without it not being a kids show.
There is nothing complicated or subtle about the show, it's all right there on the screen. All firebenders are evil, Zuko is confused, Azula is crazy. Anything else is wishful extrapolation.
Woah. Not all firebenders are evil - hell, most aren't. That was pretty much part of the point of Book 3.
Avatar is a deep show for Nickelodeon standards, for western animation its up there in complexity.
But if you compare to other shows, its pretty straight forward, boy discovers he has powers to save the world and has issues having to deal with that. Nothing really complicated about it.
But if you compare to other shows, its pretty straight forward, boy discovers he has powers to save the world and has issues having to deal with that. Nothing really complicated about it.
^
Zuko.
googleplex
Member
Hell Aang and Katara! Avatar TLA has the most complex characters of any western animated TV show ever.
Villains who aren't evil. The discussion of the value of human life and who has the right to take it away. Antagonists who themselves have antagonists who sometimes even have THEIR own antagonists. Animal rights. Culture clash. Growing up with an entire generation of adults basically gone due to war. The ethics geurilla warfare and when it's justified. How populations are manipulated by their governments through propaganda and brain washing children with flawed history books. How truly power corrupts. The importance of parents in shaping their children. The gravity of lives lost on the "enemy's" side (meaining Iroh's tale).
It's not Shakespeare, but it's more compelling than CSI or cold case files.
Being a kids show, sometimes it's heavy handed.
Being a kids show sometimes it must be deftly subtle.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
You are watching a different show than I am.
Which still doesnt go beyond issues presented from the likes of shows such as Full Metal Alchemist, Eureka Seven or Gundam [insert series here].
If it comes to shows regarding political factions, warfare, children saving the world etc. it treads over ground other shows have already gone over, and presents them in a pretty standard way. Its entertaining and can give you something to think about. But if you've seen the shows mentioned already, you would have thought about all of that already so its not that compelling.
Iroh. Those kids at the dance party. Roku. The old man who first tired to teach aang firebending. The people in the fishing village.
Watch "The Avatar and the Fire Lord" Aang says at the end, "I think the lesson was that everyone is capable of both good and evil and that all life is valuable because of that. Roku and the fire lord were both fire nation, but it didn't define who they were" or something VERY close to that.
The fire nation soldiers are often depicted as evil, but other times they are simply depicted as following orders... and in the 3rd season we learn how they are lied to and brainwashed to be convinced that their cause is noble.
As far as projecting things.... that's what subtle storytelling IS. You can't blame people for connecting dots we're clearly meant to connect, unless we're to beleive MAd Men is the most boring show on earth and the dialogue in CSI Miami is well written.
So you missed the part where they toured the Fire Nation villages and all that was left were women, children, and old fellas who mostly turned out not to be evil moustache-twirling villains. Or the bit where the Fire Nation schoolkids turned out to be, well, kids. Or the slice-of-life in the Fire Nation where everybody went to the beach and did normal teen things. Or the Sun worshipper duders. Deserters and pacifists opposed to the nature of the Hundred Years War. Foot soldiers given characterisation and moments of levity, brief flashes of humanisation beneath the masks. Zuko and Iroh.
A lot of children's series make the mooks generic evil, and Avatar may have began that way at first. But it didn't end that way, and to think it did overlooks a lot of storytelling.
Sure, but they're all aimed at a 16-24 demographic, while Avatar is aimed at a 6-10 year old demographic (officially, anyway). Korra is a better comparison for those series you're stating, whereas a better comparison for ATLA from Japan might be... Pokemon, Digimon, Naruto maybe.
Yeah, no. First off, what Staccat0 said, minus what he said about projection. I disagree with him on that.
Second, if I am going to explain how Zuko and Azula are complicated characters, your going to need to get out of the mindset that people project things onto them. Your already convinced that your view is the only right one with that mindset, and I haven't even made my argument yet. Agree to this first, then we'll talk. Otherwise, you'll just discredit anything I say, no matter how I support it. And you can do this to ANY character in ANY fiction. Give me any character you care to name, and I can write them off by over simplifying them like how you did with Azula merely being 'crazy'. Subtly requires looking at things that aren't immediately obvious, and that is most certainly not projecting.
I see your point. However, it is a different point than the one I replied to. Saying that there is nothing particularly complicated about Avatar is different than saying there are other shows that are just as complicated.
I haven't seen Eureka Seven, but I definitely have watched Mobile Suit Gundam Wing and Full Metal Alchemist. Perhaps it's due to translation and the american voice acting (performance simply cannot be discounted if we're talking about art delivering on themes and messages) but those shows don't resonate with me. Avatar, for me, is funnier and has characters who I feel I "know" and can predict their behavior without finding them dull. Good tv writing 101 IMO.
What do you even mean by "people project onto it," anyway? It seems to me like a part of the process of making meaning of any piece of fiction and seeing complexity in it involves that process of extrapolating the limited information we're given. And while it is possible to read or view anything on a shallow, surface level and argue that it is all right there on the screen (or page, as it were) and argue that anything else is wishful extrapolation, I don't see how you can argue that and not apply that to any attempts to find deeper meaning in any form of fiction.
You kinda' CAN'T disagree with me. Projection is a large foundation of art and storytelling. It's like... history?
Unless we're talking about 2 different things?
I'm using my own life experience and emotions to help me intuit what those subtle hints mean. It connects me to the characters and humanizes drawings on paper. It's a basic part of suspension of disbelief no?
I mean, if we don't project our ideas, wants and thoughts of the characters onto the show we can never be suprised (comedy) or dissapointed (tragedy) on a somewhat basic level right? We're talking nuts and bolts...
Yeah, like they said
Okay, well Pokemon is just a giant promotional tool for their current series of games. Same thing always happens just with a different background no matter what new region Ash steps foot in.
Digimon gets pretty deep development, ally digimon and even the Tamer's digimon can get killed which leads to great physiological trauma on all the children involved. Naruto well, its no less complex than Avatar...just longer.
I hear people say Avatar is the best show they've seen on TV, or very complex or deep but should I assume those statements are in context of shows for 6-10 year olds? It does hold a higher caliber of story to say other shows such as Kim Possible or Danny Phantom or Invader Zim. I already said that, but you move up to shows for 16-24 demographic like you said, it doesnt stand out so much. Not that its bad or anything but just that it doesnt stand out anymore. Which is all Im saying.
Well, I can't speak for the statements of others, but context always changes how impressive a work is. Drawing comparisons between unsuitable media types doesn't really work - it'd be Star Wars v 2001: A Space Oddysey or something. Like I said, I'd wait to see how complex Korra gets thematically before trying to draw comparisons with E7 or FMA.
We seem to have different definitions. What your describing is just analysis and empathy to me. You look at what the character is (analysis), then you connect him/her to think of what he could do in his situation, what you want them to do, and whether you care or not (empathy).
Projection, for me, is when you put characteristics in a character that aren't there just because you want them to be. In a nutshell, it's Draco in Leather pants. Fangirls find Draco hot, but in canon he is little more than a git. But in their minds, he is very witty, charming, misunderstood, a nice guy deep down, etc. The best way to determine what is projection and what isn't is how well you can support what your saying with canon. You won't find too much showing Draco being a nice guy in canon, so making that argument is projection.
Fair enough. Avatar was definitely an interesting/entertaining show. Zuko was the most developed or interesting character for me and he would be the one most likely to make me think about as a character. The other characters werent bad either but no one I could resonate with or compelled about, not to say they werent entertaining.
Shows like FMA had numerous OMG moments for me, that got me drawn into thinking what the characters would do next. It made me consider what I would do in that situation. Perhaps because of the demographic of Avatar the more predictable characters and their actions simply made it less compelling for me.
googleplex
Member
First of all, it would be foolish to equate the state of Japaneses animation to western Animation.
Which is why we're all so impressed with Avatar. It's rare when a western cartoon has as much depth of character and story. And I'd put Avatar: TLA up there with the best Japan has to offer.
Well I its a good thing I mentioned it, so statements/praises for Avatar are not to be taken in mind with animation from Japan?
I also said it was a up there for western animation. My post was just wanting to clarify how blanket or detailed the praises of Avatar were in this thread.
Well I disagree with the last statement, the series I brought up are more complicated than Avatar imo (whether I should compare them or not), though they're not as brutally thought provoking as others.
For me it isn't quite up there, though after reading some essays I think it is much closer than I once thought. And regardless of that, I think that whatever difference there are have more to do with the intended audiences and different goals than it necessarily does with the ability of the writers.
Nearly all media is designed in order to sell, to an extent. But even if it isn't, that does not mean that the creators gave up their creative integrity. That it's aimed at kids and meant to sell merchandise means little to nothing.
Well, I wouldn't disagree with that, but you can be clear while being subtle. Subtlety doesn't mean that something is complicated or difficult to understand. It just means it has nuances to it. A good analogy would be two people looking at a detailed painting from a different distances. The person far away can still make out that it's a painting of, say, a tower. Both people can see that it's a tower. But the one that's closer can see the pattern laden into it, the shape gargoyles on the top, the birds sitting on the gargoyles.
That's how avatar is. To children that don't yet have a full grasp of what makes up a person, they just see the tower, but we adults, when we bother ourselves to look, we can see so much more.
This is factually incorrect.
There's so much going on with the main cast of heroes and villains that people can and has written pages and pages of words analyzing them.
Edit: I see people have already addressed them.
B-b-b-but that's all just projection! They're all obviously wrong and none of the things they pointed out mean anything!
The major problem with a show like FMA (and many other B-level Japanese Animation) is the OMG moments can be seen from miles back hurtling toward the unsuspecting characters. Then, when presented with the OMG moment the characters find themselves inexplicably dumber then they were only 5 minutes ago. One reason I really loved Avatar is because none of the characters had moments of complete stupidity that seemed out of character. Their actions are more predictable because they are based on everything that's happened before that moment.
Also, the animated version of FMA was clearly trying to outdo itself, which in the end turned from edge of the seat morbid curiosity to expected moments of shock that failed to impress or interest.
Then there's the ending.
Almost every time the characters were faced with a situation that required them to make a decision they made the clear wrong decision despite all the wrong decisions they'd made in the past. This is in stark contrast to when they're planning or plotting and seem to be the cleverest bunch of kids ever. By the end of the series it was clear to me that plot was dictating the action of characters and not any sense of development.
Slightly off topic, but when did this happen in FMA?
I still have no idea what your referring to. Give me an example. I'm not even sure whether your talking about the original anime or brotherhood.
But the behavior you describe happened, that's not necessarily unjustified. Deciding what to do in a calm environment as opposed to when someone is trying to kill you or something wreaks havok on your thinking process.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Do you watch Naruto? I am huge Naruto fan and love Avatar like theres no tomorrow..but dont say its comparable to Naruto in terms of complexity especially shippuden...the legend of Korra does look promising though.
Manga is best.
Though you don't get that amazing Mustang fire animation.
Pfft. I will admit that I haven't watched/read Naruto for a very, very long time, but shonen complexity, generally speaking, comes from overdosing on characters and xanatos gambits within xanatos gambits, rather than a more complex exploration of broader themes.
I've heard that Brotherhood is much better, but the original FMA's decline in quality really made me not want to watch Brotherhood.
I can't think of a specific example (I even trolled TV tropes to see if there were any specific examples called out) but through the entire first half of the series the main characters are working against their own end in rather obvious ways that seem completely out of character. By the time the second half of the show comes around they have to spend so much time cleaning up their own fuck-ups that development slows to a crawl.
At least, thats how I saw it.
CornBurrito
Member
Someone didn't watch the 3rd season.
edit: All this Avatar vs Anime talk is awful. I'm going to ignore it and just enjoy the damn show.
Well, I haven't seen the original in years, but I reread the manga atleast 4 times by now, long with rewatching the best scenes in the anime several times. I also know that the first half of the original anime follows the manga very closely. I can't think of anything that resembles what you are talking about except one and that's entirely justified. That instance is the philosophers stone and how the elrics don't want to use it. But that's not idiocy, that's ethics.
They consider the souls that the stone is made out of to still be alive, and they refuse to kill them to help themselves like that, and search for another way.
CornBurrito
Member
Was that ever actually said? I don't remember hearing that using the stone "killed" the stored souls.
I agree! I finished reading the manga awhile back, and only decided to watch Brotherhood recently. I'm picky and barely watch anime, but it turned out to be a great adaptation.
I know that feel. I think most people who watched the first FMA also hated the latter half and ending, but ended up enjoying Brotherhood. You should give it another try someday.
No, I dont watch Naruto (anymore) but I still read the manga. I didnt bring up Naruto, just said it wouldnt be less complex than Avatar which Im gathering you would agree.
Though when it comes to story/characters, people have standard gripes about that compared to other manga/anime so that puts a perspective on Avatar's themes/story in relation.
Of course as I gathered, Avatar comments/praise arent usually considered in terms of anime/manga standard.
Haven't read/watched it in a while but the impression I got was they didnt want to use power created from the blood/lives/souls of others/innocent people.
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