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[lunarworks]

It would be a problem if like apple the product was weeks away from launch. However most put mid oct as the launch date for windows 8. That puts the product at what 4 months or so away from launching ?

You also have to figure that this could be using a build of windows that no one outside of MS has been able to see and it might be another reason why there was no hands on time with the surface.


Its not as cut and dry as you want to make it. MS will be showing this device off again later in the year before its launch date and bloggers will get to play with it as much as they want. I bet it will happen in august or so

When showing a product too early, and then showing it again later on in the year, you risk ruining the freshness of it for release. You also give the competition a chance to cut you off at the pass.

Apple's way:
"Here's shiny new thing. You can buy it today!!!"
- Crowd goes nuts.

Microsoft, in this case:
"Here's a shiny new thing! It's not quite finished yet, and we can't give you all the details."
- Crowd goes sorta nuts.
"Here's our shiny new thing again. Here's the details."
- Crowd says "We've already seen this thing." (See: Nintendo at E3 this year.)

 

[Marty Chinn]

When showing a product too early, and then showing it again later on in the year, you risk ruining the freshness of it for release. You also give the competition a chance to cut you off at the pass.

In general yes, but who is the competition that is going to cut Microsoft off at the pass? It's not Apple.

 

[lunarworks]

In general yes, but who is the competition that is going to cut Microsoft off at the pass? It's not Apple.

Samsung has no shame in copying anyone. Google has no love lost for Microsoft, either.

 

[tino]

In general yes, but who is the competition that is going to cut Microsoft off at the pass? It's not Apple.

Asus will show a "Transformer surface" with a more usable keyboard cover and lighter weight?

 

[Marty Chinn]

Samsung has no shame in copying anyone. Google has no love lost for Microsoft, either.

Asus will show a "Transformer surface" with a more usable keyboard cover and lighter weight?

I didn't factor in Google, but I don't think Microsoft will care about Asus or Samsung. I don't think Microsoft cares if they sell a Windows 8/RT device, or Samsung sells one or Asus sells one or HP sells one, and so forth. So I don't think they care if any Windows 8 OEM copies them or even improves upon them. I really think Microsoft's approach is more like here's what you should expect out of a Windows 8 device and get consumers focused, and OEMs focused on the direction of Windows 8, not that Microsoft is trying to beat all the other OEMs.

 

[lunarworks]

I didn't factor in Google, but I don't think Microsoft will care about Asus or Samsung. I don't think Microsoft cares if they sell a Windows 8/RT device, or Samsung sells one or Asus sells one or HP sells one, and so forth. So I don't think they care if any Windows 8 OEM copies them or even improves upon them. I really think Microsoft's approach is more like here's what you should expect out of a Windows 8 device and get consumers focused, and OEMs focused on the direction of Windows 8, not that Microsoft is trying to beat all the other OEMs.

You're assuming it's gonna be a Windows device.

Samsung could copy all the cool stuff from Surface, stick Android on it, and forgo the $85 Windows licence fee.

 

[Marty Chinn]

You're assuming it's gonna be a Windows device.

Samsung could copy all the cool stuff from Surface, stick Android on it, and forgo the $85 Windows licence fee.

I think Android is done on the tablet front moving forward. Unless Google announces something mind blowing this week, I really don't see much of a future. So my basis is under the assumption that Android tablets are a non factor.

 

[Ghost]

You're assuming it's gonna be a Windows device.

Samsung could copy all the cool stuff from Surface, stick Android on it, and forgo the $85 Windows licence fee.

wow yeah, with Android x86 on board Samsung would actually have as few compatible apps as the RT version of Surface!

 

[White Man]

When showing a product too early, and then showing it again later on in the year, you risk ruining the freshness of it for release. You also give the competition a chance to cut you off at the pass.

Apple's way:
"Here's shiny new thing. You can buy it today!!!"
- Crowd goes nuts.

Microsoft, in this case:
"Here's a shiny new thing! It's not quite finished yet, and we can't give you all the details."
- Crowd goes sorta nuts.
"Here's our shiny new thing again. Here's the details."
- Crowd says "We've already seen this thing." (See: Nintendo at E3 this year.)

I figured it was announced now for the same reasons the initial iPad and the initial iPhone were announced in advance. Once you get past a certain point in development of a new product, absolutely everything will leak once it goes into full on manufacturing or handed off to regulators for legal rubber stamping.

 

[eastmen]

I get thats what we have now..but the new Clover Trail is dual core and suppose to be beefed up.
If its comparable experience/performance on Clover Trail using Windows 8 Pro to the Tegra 3 on RT ..why by the RT over it is what I'm saying.

I'm gonna be curious how it benches out when its released..no one seems to have one for testing yet..just OEMS

ATOM is really weak even if Clover trail is beefed up it will still fall behind 32/28nm amd apus. The replacement for brazos will have 2-4 jaguar cores of which are beefed up bobcat cores and will feature a GCN (graphics core next) gpu .

Both atom and amd's brazos sucessor will be very under powered vs trinity and ivybridge.

If Wayne comes out early 2013, then obviously there will be OEM RT machines using it well before of Surface refresh.

So there are 3 senarios

1) MS gets wayne early and has a few months with the best tegra verison.

2) Wayne is delayed deaper into 2013 and so surface is left with older tech for a few months

3) Wayne is released in early 2013 in which MS will have the older tegra for 6 months +


I don't see any of these are horribly bad , obviously 3 would be worse case senario but i'm sure MS is privy to nvidia's roadmap info that we are not

 

[eastmen]

When showing a product too early, and then showing it again later on in the year, you risk ruining the freshness of it for release. You also give the competition a chance to cut you off at the pass.

Apple's way:
"Here's shiny new thing. You can buy it today!!!"
- Crowd goes nuts.

Microsoft, in this case:
"Here's a shiny new thing! It's not quite finished yet, and we can't give you all the details."
- Crowd goes sorta nuts.
"Here's our shiny new thing again. Here's the details."
- Crowd says "We've already seen this thing." (See: Nintendo at E3 this year.)

This is only valid if MS has nothing of interest to show the second time around. we still don't know what if any LTE this supports, we don't know the cpu configurations , we don't know the ram configurations.

Who knows what ms will tell us when surface um surfaces again.


Apple has shown products off months in advane also. So its not like other companys have never done this before and we already saw at computerx the best of what the OEMs have to offer and its going to take alot of work to come up with something better designed than surface

 

[Cheebo]

I figured it was announced now for the same reasons the initial iPad and the initial iPhone were announced in advance. Once you get past a certain point in development of a new product, absolutely everything will leak once it goes into full on manufacturing or handed off to regulators for legal rubber stamping.

I am pretty sure though for both cases the price was announced with exact release date and open pre-orders on their online store though.

 

[brotkasten]

I am pretty sure though for both cases the price was announced with exact release date and open pre-orders on their online store though.

Yep.

iPhone announcement:
"The 4GB iPhone will go out the door in the US as a Cingular exclusive for $499 on a two-year contract, 8GB for $599. Ships Stateside in June, Europe in fourth quarter, Asia in 2008."

iPad announcement:
"Apple iPad announced, starting price of $499 - shipping in 60 days"

Somewhat unrelated, but I thought it was funny when I read it in that iPhone article at Engadget:
" Perhaps most amazingly, though, it somehow runs OS X with support for Widgets, Google Maps, and Safari, and iTunes (of course) with CoverFlow out of the gate."

 

[lunarworks]

This is only valid if MS has nothing of interest to show the second time around. we still don't know what if any LTE this supports, we don't know the cpu configurations , we don't know the ram configurations.

I doubt Microsoft will have anything exciting to show. Windows 8 is "done", LTE would have been mentioned, and nitty, gritty details like RAM don't get much attention in these things.

Really, all they have to reveal is the price and ship date. They haven't nailed down either quite yet, probably.

 

[border]

I figured it was announced now for the same reasons the initial iPad and the initial iPhone were announced in advance. Once you get past a certain point in development of a new product, absolutely everything will leak once it goes into full on manufacturing or handed off to regulators for legal rubber stamping.

It makes more sense to rush the Surface to the public when you consider that Google is likely announcing a $200 Jelly Bean tablet in the next couple days and probably launching it in the next month. They can't let Google have all that time on the market without even announcing a competitor.

If they showed up in September with the Surface it would have been after millions have already bought a cheap Nexus 7......at which point it wouldn't matter what there is to show, most people won't buy two tablets in a year. At least this way people have a reason to hold off on a Nexus.

 

[saltywalrus]

wow yeah, with Android x86 on board Samsung would actually have as few compatible apps as the RT version of Surface!

Android x86 can run most apps in the play store. Netflix is a big one that doesn't work. Even games with native ARM code work on x86.

 

[eastmen]

I doubt Microsoft will have anything exciting to show. Windows 8 is "done", LTE would have been mentioned, and nitty, gritty details like RAM don't get much attention in these things.

Really, all they have to reveal is the price and ship date. They haven't nailed down either quite yet, probably.

both verisons of the surface shipping with next gen cpus would be big deals

 

[Gary Whitta]

In general yes, but who is the competition that is going to cut Microsoft off at the pass? It's not Apple.

Well, that's only because they already did.

 

[goomba]

Android x86 can run most apps in the play store. Netflix is a big one that doesn't work. Even games with native ARM code work on x86.

That doesnt make any sense unless the game also includes an x64 / x86 binary.

 

[eastmen]

It makes more sense to rush the Surface to the public when you consider that Google is likely announcing a $200 Jelly Bean tablet in the next couple days and probably launching it in the next month. They can't let Google have all that time on the market without even announcing a competitor.

If they showed up in September with the Surface it would have been after millions have already bought a cheap Nexus 7......at which point it wouldn't matter what there is to show, most people won't buy two tablets in a year. At least this way people have a reason to hold off on a Nexus.

Do people want a 7inch tablet ? I though kindle fire was doing pretty bad and in all honesty why would people who want a 7 inch andriod tablet choose between that and a 10.6 inch windows tablet ?

 

[Raistlin]

7" tablets have there place. Bit of a different use case.

 

[eastmen]

7" tablets have there place. Bit of a different use case.

i dunno , with phones getting bigger and bigger screens i think the niche 7 inch tablets fill is only going to get smaller

 

[kehs]

That doesnt make any sense unless the game also includes an x64 / x86 binary.

Intel has been making amazing strides behind the scenes for android. Their VM work allows for alot of native arm code to work on their chipset.

 

[saltywalrus]

That doesnt make any sense unless the game also includes an x64 / x86 binary.

Intel wrote a propietary binary translation layer.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

The best part about the whole reveal is the meetings journalists got afterward. They sound hilariously bad from everything I've read. Here are these awesome keyboards, big selling point!, they work great! "you can't try them".

 

[DrBo42]

I figured it was announced now for the same reasons the initial iPad and the initial iPhone were announced in advance. Once you get past a certain point in development of a new product, absolutely everything will leak once it goes into full on manufacturing or handed off to regulators for legal rubber stamping.

Bingo.

 

[maeh2k]

Samsung could copy all the cool stuff from Surface, stick Android on it, and forgo the $85 Windows licence fee.

I don't think anyone can just copy all the cool stuff from Surface.

- using the same material is probably possible.
- not so sure about the groove for ventilation. If it's been done before then yes, but if that's something really new, then MS probably applied for a patent.
- the magnetic charging connector as well as the magnetic cover probably rely on Apple patents. MS and Apple have a cross licensing agreement, so MS can use those. The other manufacturers probably cannot.
- judging by their presentation, there seems to be quite a bit of innovation in the touch cover itself, which leads me to believe that MS might have/get some patents there, too.

if they want to copy the hinge, they can and they should. Maybe they'll feel inspired to pay just as much attention to the sound

 

[Emily Chu]

are there fans and vents on this thing ?

pro / rt version

 

[brotkasten]

are there fans and vents on this thing ?

pro / rt version

Pro yes, RT no.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Pro yes, RT no.

Couldn't it be passively cooled? I imagine it's hard to get a proper airflow with a fan if the entire case is vented all around like that.

 

[border]

Do people want a 7inch tablet ? I though kindle fire was doing pretty bad and in all honesty why would people who want a 7 inch andriod tablet choose between that and a 10.6 inch windows tablet ?

The Kindle Fire is the best selling Android tablet right now. It's not doing anywhere near as good as the iPad, but by all accounts it is a stopgap product and you can expect sales to dwindle as the ramp
up for the Fire 2 begins (another competitor that Microsoft also has to brace for).

Do people want a 7" tablet rather than a 10" tablet? Keep in mind that one is $200 and the other is $500+. So long as people see tablets as a supplemental device (rather than a replacement for a desktop or laptop), having a low price is a pretty big boon. Apple can overcome the price differential, but so far nobody else has been able to. The cheap 7" tablets still let you browse the Internet on the go, or while the wife watches HGTV. Maybe they don't run Office, but unless you are a business user or a student that's hardly a concern.

 

[eastmen]

Couldn't it be passively cooled? I imagine it's hard to get a proper airflow with a fan if the entire case is vented all around like that.

You put a squirrel fan inside the tablet that sucks air in one way and pushes it out the ohter. Since its a rectangle i'm assuming 2 sides of the air vent would be for intake and two for exhaust. Would work rather well actually since even if one side is blocked while holding it with your hand the other side should be fine.

The Kindle Fire is the best selling Android tablet right now. It's not doing anywhere near as good as the iPad, but by all accounts it is a stopgap product and you can expect sales to dwindle as the ramp
up for the Fire 2 begins (another competitor that Microsoft also has to brace for).

Do people want a 7" tablet rather than a 10" tablet? Keep in mind that one is $200 and the other is $500+. So long as people see tablets as a supplemental device (rather than a replacement for a desktop or laptop), having a low price is a pretty big boon. Apple can overcome the price differential, but so far nobody else has been able to. The cheap 7" tablets still let you browse the Internet on the go, or while the wife watches HGTV. Maybe they don't run Office, but unless you are a business user or a student that's hardly a concern.

Kindle Fire is also the most advertisded andriod tablet.

Also who knows what the fire will do , its very limited in its shelf life since you can't upgrade its storage space , it may turn off alot of fire one fans unless the sequal is fixed.


I think its more of a worry to google than it is to MS , since google makes no money off the fire.

 

[border]

I don't think anyone can just copy all the cool stuff from Surface.

- judging by their presentation, there seems to be quite a bit of innovation in the touch cover itself, which leads me to believe that MS might have/get some patents there, too.

if they want to copy the hinge, they can and they should. Maybe they'll feel inspired to pay just as much attention to the sound

Do you think that Microsoft is going to sue their OEMs if they rip off any of their hardware patents? I ask that not in a dismissive way - it's a real, debatable issue going forward.

Apple has the luxury of suing whoever they want, since they are not reliant on other companies to support the platform. At the same time they have no compunction about suing companies that supply components for the iPad and iPhone -- they are suing Samsung pretty aggressively. Samsung won't cut them off because they buy literally tens of millions of LCD screens from them. Does Microsoft have the same luxury? I don't know.

 

[jaxword]

I was thinking of buying an ipad this summer. Mainly for internet browsing, watching videos and reading books on the go.

Is the general consensus to wait for the windows tablet?

 

[Hoo-doo]

You put a squirrel fan inside the tablet that sucks air in one way and pushes it out the ohter. Since its a rectangle i'm assuming 2 sides of the air vent would be for intake and two for exhaust. Would work rather well actually since even if one side is blocked while holding it with your hand the other side should be fine.

Yeah that makes sense. Bummer though, I really want that thing to be fanless, but I guess that's just impossible.

I was thinking of buying an ipad this summer. Mainly for internet browsing, watching videos and reading books on the go.

Is the general consensus to wait for the windows tablet?

I'd say wait until the Surface is out or there's some actual hands-on time, see what it offers.
But for those things you are looking to do with it, it will be very hard to beat the iPad. Reading and browsing on a retina display is fantastic.

 

[strata8]

Yeah that makes sense. Bummer though, I really want that thing to be fanless, but I guess that's just impossible.

It's possible to cool a 17W chip passively, but you need a massive heatsink like this:

So possible on a desktop, but on a tablet? Not so much.

 

[border]

Also who knows what the fire will do , its very limited in its shelf life since you can't upgrade its storage space , it may turn off alot of fire one fans unless the sequal is fixed.


I think its more of a worry to google than it is to MS , since google makes no money off the fire.

So long as the Kindle is super cheap and not seen as a replacement for a laptop or desktop, why is storage even remotely a concern? With cloud services becoming increasingly common storage will be less and less of a deciding factor in the future. If you want movies, watch them on Amazon or Netflix or Hulu. If you want music, get Pandora or Spotify.

Google definitely is threatened by the Fire, but that's why they are set to launch their own 7" $200 tablet, rather than a laptop replacement that costs more than twice as much.

 

[Dead Man]

Do I see keyboards? That will get me into tablets, I hate touch screen typing.

 

[jaxword]

I'd say wait until the Surface is out or there's some actual hands-on time, see what it offers.
But for those things you are looking to do with it, it will be very hard to beat the iPad. Reading and browsing on a retina display is fantastic.

Hmm, the only drawback with the ipads is the touchscreen typing. I can't do that, I need my big qwerty to do anything. I may have to wait.

 

[maeh2k]

Do you think that Microsoft is going to sue their OEMs if they rip off any of their hardware patents?

No, they aren't going to sue them, but if the OEMs use MS patents they will probably have to license them (which MS would certainly allow). It's not really copying if you pay for it.

Unlike MS the OEMs won't have access to Apples patents, though. So I doubt they can use these types of cover or charger.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Hmm, the only drawback with the ipads is the touchscreen typing. I can't do that, I need my big qwerty to do anything. I may have to wait.

Yep, it is a drawback. But then again, we have no idea if microsoft's ultraflat keyboards are any good, or what they are priced at. If you really need one on iPad you could also consider a keyboard case or a bluetooth one.

 

[jaxword]

Yep, it is a drawback. But then again, we have no idea if microsoft's ultraflat keyboards are any good, or what they are priced at. If you really need one on iPad you could also consider a keyboard case or a bluetooth one.

Does apple sell decent ipad keyboards?

 

[brotkasten]

Does apple sell decent ipad keyboards?

Only as a stand/dock.

You can also use the small Apple BT keyboard, but it's not an integrated solution like the keyboard cover from Microsoft.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Does apple sell decent ipad keyboards?

Apple currently only offers their standard full-size bluetooth keyboard. Edit: Oh yeah, and the dock one.
Logitech and a lot of other brands have cases with integrated keyboards, but I have no idea if those are any good.

 

[border]

No, they aren't going to sue them, but if the OEMs use MS patents they will probably have to license them (which MS would certainly allow). It's not really copying if you pay for it.

Unlike MS the OEMs won't have access to Apples patents, though. So I doubt they can use these types of cover or charger.

But if an OEM decides not to license a Surface clone, would Microsoft actually stand up and sue them?

As you point out though, it may be a non-issue since Apple's aggressive patent enforcement may prevent anyone else from using a magnetic cover anyway. Which brings up the interesting question of whether or not Apple would sue a Surface competitor. On the one hand they would be competing with the iPad that Apple wants to protect, but on the other hand they would be diluting the market for the Surface.

 

[Blackhead]

Only as a stand/dock.

http://i.imgur.com/QwhW9.jpg

You can also use the small Apple BT keyboard, but it's not an integrated solution like the keyboard cover from Microsoft.

Apple currently only offers their standard full-size bluetooth keyboard. Edit: Oh yeah, and the dock one.
Logitech and a lot of other brands have cases with integrated keyboards, but I have no idea if those are any good.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2455532/MC184LL_AV1.jpeg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2455532/H9460_AV6.jpeg

Keyboard dock is not currently sold by Apple
Apple's BT Keyboard doesn't have iOS specific keys.

 

[jaxword]

Thanks for the replies, guys. Sounds like I need to wait for the Windows one after all.

 

[eastmen]

Do you think that Microsoft is going to sue their OEMs if they rip off any of their hardware patents? I ask that not in a dismissive way - it's a real, debatable issue going forward.

Apple has the luxury of suing whoever they want, since they are not reliant on other companies to support the platform. At the same time they have no compunction about suing companies that supply components for the iPad and iPhone -- they are suing Samsung pretty aggressively. Samsung won't cut them off because they buy literally tens of millions of LCD screens from them. Does Microsoft have the same luxury? I don't know.

At the same time even if MS sues acer or HP what are they going to do ? Without windows they have no products to sell.

Also I think surface is a show of force to these OEMS , MS doesn't need them . They made the surface and a laptop and desktop device would be childs play for MS

So long as the Kindle is super cheap and not seen as a replacement for a laptop or desktop, why is storage even remotely a concern? With cloud services becoming increasingly common storage will be less and less of a deciding factor in the future. If you want movies, watch them on Amazon or Netflix or Hulu. If you want music, get Pandora or Spotify.

Google definitely is threatened by the Fire, but that's why they are set to launch their own 7" $200 tablet, rather than a laptop replacement that costs more than twice as much.

Cloud services need a connection to the internet and those are expensive the more you use the cloud the more you use expensive bandwidth. Unless of course your just using the device at home.

Aside from that 8 gigs of space is nothing and many will find thesmelvs stuck with no upgrade path. Not to mention that the Fire Uses 2.2 and if a new fire uses 2.2 it could quickly loose out on newer apps that require newer verisons of the OS

 

[eastmen]

Yeah that makes sense. Bummer though, I really want that thing to be fanless, but I guess that's just impossible.



I'd say wait until the Surface is out or there's some actual hands-on time, see what it offers.
But for those things you are looking to do with it, it will be very hard to beat the iPad. Reading and browsing on a retina display is fantastic.

1) Why , whats fanless really do for you ? IF its a low DBA fan its not going to matter . My brazos is 18w and it has a tiny fan that i can't hear over the hardrive


2) Well if you want to read a decent e-ink screen craps all over the retina display. But for reading web sites the ipad is very good. Remember though the Pro verison will have high dpi also.

 

[Hoo-doo]

1) Why , whats fanless really do for you ? IF its a low DBA fan its not going to matter . My brazos is 18w and it has a tiny fan that i can't hear over the hardrive


2) Well if you want to read a decent e-ink screen craps all over the retina display. But for reading web sites the ipad is very good. Remember though the Pro verison will have high dpi also.

1. Fragile, moving parts, heat output, having to worry about restricting airflow, all things I never want to see in a tablet. Ever seen ultrabooks running resource intensive apps? They sound like jet engines and get incredibly hot. The Surface will probably be no different, that's not something I want to lug around, personally.

2. Who cares about e-ink when none of the devices in this discussion have it? We weren't even talking about the pro model either. For everyday tablet reading, be it webpages, comics or ebooks, the iPad is still your best bet.