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Guild Wars 2 Launch Date announced: August 28th, 2012

Jira said:
Don't link to the guru one, it's outdated, the MMO champ one is up to date. :D
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Also it's Guru. No reason to subject anyone to that.

BearPawB said:
So far we know that there are some certainly big bosses in GW2, but i am not totally sure they will be much more than zerg->die->respawn->zerg. A hundred people zerging a huge dragon is cool in its own right, i think the difficulty is going to be hard to tune correctly.
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That strategy becomes much less effective when all of your armor breaks and you have to fight naked.
 
Appreciate the answers people have given to my queries about raiding. I guess it's just not for me. Always used PVP as my social/challenging game mode. Raiding - at least based on descriptions of what it entailed - always seemed like it would drive me crazy with the gear aspect of it. Seemed like a lot of work for little reward. Also, the job aspect of many guilds simply didn't appeal to me.

Oh well. I can at least appreciate now that not everyone made it so damn miserable as others have that I've come across.

EDIT: Want to fight naked? Two words: Fire Elemental.
 
BearPawB said:
I honestly wish there was game that was nothing but raids. Non stop raid encounters. No questing, no bullshit. Just a bunch of huge ass raids.

Raids are fun because they require a lot of skill. They require people to pay attention, and work as a team. They are fun because bosses have special abilities that make them unique to fight. Raids are fun because they are usually massive and beautiful. I am not, and never was a hardcore raider, i never beat the lich king, i never played WoW for more than 3-4 months at a time. But each time I did a raid, it was an amazing experience that made up for all the bullshit guild politicking and waiting around.

That being said, I think it is fine that GW2 doesn't have raids. As long as the exploration modes are as varied and challenging as people have suggested, i will be satiated. Bosses are fun. Complex mechanics are fun. If GW2 has those it will be fine.

So far we know that there are some certainly big bosses in GW2, but i am not totally sure they will be much more than zerg->die->respawn->zerg. A hundred people zerging a huge dragon is cool in its own right, i think the difficulty is going to be hard to tune correctly.
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I'm really intrigued in how they will make the big bosses fights challenging and fun, the scale of some bosses are huge. For now the big bosses fight that were in the BWE were in low level zones so they were a bit easy, so its gonna be interesting what they will come up with in high level zones.

Thanasis Deitus said:
Also it's Guru. No reason to subject anyone to that.



That strategy becomes much less effective when all of your armor breaks and you have to fight naked.
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What if i already play naked?
 
Vinci said:
Appreciate the answers people have given to my queries about raiding. I guess it's just not for me. Always used PVP as my social/challenging game mode. Raiding - at least based on descriptions of what it entailed - always seemed like it would drive me crazy with the gear aspect of it. Seemed like a lot of work for little reward. Also, the job aspect of many guilds simply didn't appeal to me.

Oh well. I can at least appreciate now that not everyone made it so damn miserable as others have that I've come across.

EDIT: Want to fight naked? Two words: Fire Elemental.
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I actually got bored of the raiding aspect after years in WoW (where most of my raiding experience comes from as I don't count CoH) and went to PVP. The hardest part was some of the people that I raided with and really enjoyed their company didn't enjoy PVP as much as I did.

That's why I'm looking forward to GW2 so much, the PVP aspect is why a majority of people are playing and I hope I don't have any trouble finding a group to play with on a regular basis.
 
Anyone have the link to trait calculator? I know there's a lot.. but there was one in this thread I really liked and was updated for BWE3.
 
Arksy said:
Playing through faction campaign for HoM stuff atm. So painful. Question. Will GW2 have any vertical progression at max level or will it be completely horizontal?
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Another reply to this with a bit of further explanation:

You probably won't have max daamge wapons or max armor at 80 yet. There will be a little time to quickly acquire those, and then beyond that, there are the runes to acquire, glyphs and gems for upgrade slots for your accessories and such.

So there's Reach 80 --> Acquire Max Stat Gear --> Customize Gear through Runes, glyphs and gems.

Beyond that, its horizontal progression, though that last customize phase is pretty much horizontal.

Ferrio: http://www.gw2db.com/skills/calc/elementalist is updated I think
 
flyinpiranha said:
That's why I'm looking forward to GW2 so much, the PVP aspect is why a majority of people are playing and I hope I don't have any trouble finding a group to play with on a regular basis.
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What I like about GW2 is that it does a large number of things in at least a competent fashion. That's really exciting because every MMO seems to have a blatantly obvious Achilles heel, whereas I can't identify one with GW2. It doesn't do everything perfectly; of course it doesn't. But I can see myself investing time in many facets of the game and that diversity of viable options is what makes me happy.
 
We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. Here are all the details: ow.ly/cFxlE ~RB2 #GW2We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. Here are all the details: ow.ly/cFxlE ~RB2 #GW2We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. Here are all the details: ow.ly/cFxlE ~RB2 #GW2We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. Here are all the details: ow.ly/cFxlE ~RB2 #GW2We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. Here are all the details: ow.ly/cFxlE ~RB2 #GW2We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. Here are all the details: ow.ly/cFxlE ~RB2 #GW2We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. Here are all the details: ow.ly/cFxlE ~RB2 #GW2We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. Here are all the details: ow.ly/cFxlE ~RB2 #GW2We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. Here are all the details: ow.ly/cFxlE ~RB2 #GW2We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. Here are all the details: ow.ly/cFxlE ~RB2 #GW2We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. Here are all the details: ow.ly/cFxlE ~RB2 #GW2We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. Here are all the details: ow.ly/cFxlE ~RB2 #GW2

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We will be conducting a stress test on Thursday, August 2 from 12:00 Noon PACIFIC Time to 4:00 PM PACIFIC Time.

Unlike previous stress tests, we will be actively working on the game during the event, so you might experience connectivity problems or discover features that are not working as designed. Any issues you experience are a result of the rigorous conditions of the stress test, and are in no way representative of the state of the game at launch. By participating in this stress test, you’re helping us make Guild Wars 2 a better game. Thanks for your cooperation—we’ll see you in-game! ~RB2
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Vinci said:
What I like about GW2 is that it does a large number of things in at least a competent fashion. That's really exciting because every MMO seems to have a blatantly obvious Achilles heel, whereas I can't identify one with GW2. It doesn't do everything perfectly; of course it doesn't. But I can see myself investing time in many facets of the game and that diversity of viable options is what makes me happy.
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Definitely. Of course I'll have to see how long the lasting appeal is but so far I'm really excited to play more. The hardest part about the BWE's for me was that I wasn't working towards anything with my character and in the back of my head I kept thinking "shit, this awesome Charr Warrior is going to be deleted! NooOOOooOO!"
 
BearPawB said:
I honestly wish there was game that was nothing but raids. Non stop raid encounters. No questing, no bullshit. Just a bunch of huge ass raids.
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Strange as it might sound, I think this needs to be made. In fact, it seems absurd it hasn't been made yet. I mean, lots of people love raiding, why force them to level 1-80? Give them a game that's nothing but raiding from the start. The exact same design philosophy as Guild Wars 2, applied to the other half of the game.

BearPawB said:
So far we know that there are some certainly big bosses in GW2, but i am not totally sure they will be much more than zerg->die->respawn->zerg. A hundred people zerging a huge dragon is cool in its own right, i think the difficulty is going to be hard to tune correctly.
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If I remember correctly, one of the higher level bosses (the Shatterer or Tequatl the Sunless) required people to protect and use siege weapons against them, help repair destroyed weapons, etc.
 
Well, I should be free from work to play in the last half of the stress test.
 
Vano said:
We've got a stress test coming up tomorrow. [/IMG]
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I'll be watching The Dark Knight Rises (yep, haven't watched it yet), but I should be able to catch the last couple of hours. At least this time I'll be able to see the whole end of beta event (which I'm guessing will be Hunger Royale again).
 
BearPawB said:
Raids are fun because they require a lot of skill. They require people to pay attention, and work as a team. They are fun because bosses have special abilities that make them unique to fight. Raids are fun because they are usually massive and beautiful. I am not, and never was a hardcore raider, i never beat the lich king, i never played WoW for more than 3-4 months at a time. But each time I did a raid, it was an amazing experience that made up for all the bullshit guild politicking and waiting around.
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I disagree. Raids do not require skill of any kind simply because they require a specific archetype of players to complete which the encounters are solely scripted for.

Bosses have special abilities is also not fun when each boss only uses those special abilities on queue. DBM is proof of this. Everything is timed/health related. There's nothing special about exactly when a boss will do what. There is no skill involved in reacting or preemptively performing action when you know the exact moment a condition will occur due to every fight being scripted.

Every archetype knows exactly what they have to do and when. A player not paying attention or not knowing their class is not "skill" related - it's simply not paying attention or not reading up on the "best build" for the chosen fight.

Raids are designed around "whack-a-mole" gameplay. If X happens, do Y. Before F happens, do G. That's it. Stand here, move here, don't do this, do this instead. It's the same EVERY time due to tank/heals/dps.

If you want to see player skill you will PvP - that is the only remotely dynamic gameplay element in most MMOs due to group play - since you never know what tactic the enemy will do next.

Even still, PvP is not without it's "scripted" moments - especially in 1v1. Most MMOs have a "build" which is most effective for PVE or PVP. If you know the class, know the build, you know exactly what a player will do next before they do it. You know when he sees you casting X he will do Y. You know how to juke a player into blowing abilities, etc. It's not "scripted", but it is predictable.

Raiding, by design, isn't about testing a player's skill. It's about testing a group's ability to not watch TNG on their second monitor while raiding. It's about giving a player a repeatable time-sink with a small chance at getting 1 piece of armor or weapon they need to progress to the next time-sink. It's about creating an environment for subscription fees by dangling a shiny piece of loot in front of a player and telling them they can't walk into the next dungeon unless they hit a specific item level requirement, forcing them to dump hours into antiquated dungeons just to walk into the next antiquated dungeon for more whack-a-mole combat.

Raiding is counter-intuitive. Dungeon grinds should be fun and unique. They should not rely on "We need 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 pure dps and one hybrid with an offspec/set for healing.

They should be dynamic. They should not be predictable. Will GW2 dungeons fill that role of unpredictability? I don't think we are to that point yet of knowing for sure - but the simple fact that you can have 5 different archetypes with 5 different builds every time you step foot in the same dungeon will make for interesting gameplay. You are not shoehorned into "you stand here until..." "you do this until..." "keep an eye on DBM and right before X timer goes off do this..."

I don't see GW2 dungeons being whack-a-mole. Not saying people won't get bored of them - but by simply removing the trinity you have to create boss fights with greater dynamics and less scripting since you will never know the player makeup of a particular group.

/rant off

Sorry if I offended you or anyone else - just had to speak my mind after years or raiding... by design, it's just not fun the way it is. If it were about the player skill and no gear treadmill, things would be entirely different and we'll have to see how it plays out in GW2.

EDIT:
Another update... check your clients if you haven't already.
 
Jack_AG said:
It's about giving a player a repeatable time-sink with a small chance at getting 1 piece of armor or weapon they need to progress to the next time-sink. It's about creating an environment for subscription fees by dangling a shiny piece of loot in front of a player and telling them they can't walk into the next dungeon unless they hit a specific item level requirement, forcing them to dump hours into antiquated dungeons just to walk into the next antiquated dungeon for more whack-a-mole combat.
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I agree with this so much that it has even spoiled non-MMO games for me that were mostly fine, because I identify these same hooks and tricks to elongate playing time. Games like Monster Hunter, for example.

That's why I cherish Dark/Demon souls so much. It's hard because it is, not because you have to grind boss #32, which you know by heart, for two weeks before being able to defeat boss #33. You CAN grind (and it makes the game easier, unfortunately), but it's neither necessary nor the intended way to play.
 
Wait, so to be sure: For Germany-GAF it's from 9:00 PM to 1:00 in the morning, right?

edit: yes it is! Yay!
 
Raids became the same old song and dance for me. Also, once you go past a certain point, you end up raiding as though it were a job. I enjoyed BC 10 mans and some of WOTLK, but even in Wrath, I was burning out. You learn the dance steps for he boss and then repeat them.

The fact you have to schedule your life around them is a drawback as well. Once you get to the point that you're raiding with players you hardly know just because they're signed up for that raidspot in your guild, it is no longer a social activity. It's just coming in to work.
 
etiolate said:
Raids became the same old song and dance for me. Also, once you go past a certain point, you end up raiding as though it were a job. I enjoyed BC 10 mans and some of WOTLK, but even in Wrath, I was burning out. You learn the dance steps for he boss and then repeat them.

The fact you have to schedule your life around them is a drawback as well. Once you get to the point that you're raiding with players you hardly know just because they're signed up for that raidspot in your guild, it is no longer a social activity. It's just coming in to work.
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Raids felt much more epic in Vanilla WoW with 40 players. And NOTHING compares to the awesomeness that was EQ raids. No player caps, no instanced zones, and the boss fights were insane.
 
I'm not sure about the whole logging in earlier than midnight on early release. ANet knows how much people cherish grabbing names. Opening an hour early would cause an uproar by Bob and co who set their alarm at 2:45 AM just to get up and get their names, to find their names taken.

I think it will be a lot more formal than BWE's.

Stress test tomorrow you say?

Very happy then to say that today I ....
http://hom.guildwars2.com/en/#page=main&details=pYFAAgw%2F%2B%2BCAAQAAAgHAAQCBAgCAAAAAPIEIQAAAAAA
 
chiablo said:
Raids felt much more epic in Vanilla WoW with 40 players. And NOTHING compares to the awesomeness that was EQ raids. No player caps, no instanced zones, and the boss fights were insane.
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I actually prefer raids with less people. I like playing with others that I trust and am familiar with.
 
etiolate said:
I actually prefer raids with less people. I like playing with others that I trust and am familiar with.
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Big raids and familiarity aren't mutually exclusive.

I was in multiple big EverQuest guilds of 60+ people and we all knew each other pretty well.
 
Zefah said:
Big raids and familiarity aren't mutually exclusive.

I was in multiple big EverQuest guilds of 60+ people and we all knew each other pretty well.
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I thought I knew most of my old guild pretty well until we hit up some 5-mans and 10-mans. Nothing screams "this is going to suck" than losing 1 person in a 5-man, especially a tank/healer.

Smaller raid/dungeon groups introduce consequence in a way that a large scale raid never will be able to do.

Going from 25 down to 19-17 - you can still finish the whack-a-mole process of raiding. Going from 5-4 or 5-3 and you will be screwed. There's a far smaller margin of error the smaller the group gets. I like this :)

Not because I think i'm an amazing player, quite the contrary, but because it introduces challenge.
 
Quadrophenic said:
oh shit, Congrats Brett! And I never got to meet you ingame to give you my stuff lol
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Thanks Quadrophenic!!!!! No worries at all! Was good enough just trying to kill the damn wyrm and get to play the game with you for awhile.

etiolate said:
I actually prefer raids with less people. I like playing with others that I trust and am familiar with.
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As for "raids", I'm glad that the term is not even in GW2 (maybe it's still in existence in WvW ... IE relic raids". I'm very happy with the 5 man dungeon gig.
 
I might be able to make it for the last two hours...

On a side note, does anyone(when using a phone) get tempted NOT to fix auto correct? It's hilarious what you say sometimes...

This is an exemplar denying.
(Thus(this) it's(is) an example sentence.)
(Lol, happened again!)
 
Jack_AG said:
I thought I knew most of my old guild pretty well until we hit up some 5-mans and 10-mans. Nothing screams "this is going to suck" than losing 1 person in a 5-man, especially a tank/healer.

Smaller raid/dungeon groups introduce consequence in a way that a large scale raid never will be able to do.

Going from 25 down to 19-17 - you can still finish the whack-a-mole process of raiding. Going from 5-4 or 5-3 and you will be screwed. There's a far smaller margin of error the smaller the group gets. I like this :)

Not because I think i'm an amazing player, quite the contrary, but because it introduces challenge.
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While it makes each individual more valuable in general and increases challenge in that sense, it also reduces the challenge of coordinating a massive force of individuals and making sure everyone knows exactly what to do and when. That was a huge part of the fun of EverQuest raids and the sense of accomplishment was incredible when you finally bested a powerful boss before anyone else on the server.

I really don't care either way anymore, though, since everything in modern MMORPGs is instanced to all hell. I couldn't care less about raiding in a safe and secluded instanced environment.
 
I dislike mass player, non-mechanical raids, so I didn't enjoy any of my few attempts in earlier MMOs. For me Ulduar and the Black Temple from World of Warcraft will forever remain the best raids ever created (and Mimiron my favorite boss). This will likely not change because I have no intentions of ever stepping foot inside a raid again in a way that'd probably satisfy me.

Etiolate is spot on with the "schedule your life around it" bit, I can't abide by that anymore, and I never particularly appreciated it in the first place. I like doing big blocks of gaming from time to time, but I want them on my own schedule.

Nothing will sour your ass on a game more than feeling forced/guilted into playing when you don't want to. When we hit Wrath of the Lich King and raid nights would keep clashing with evenings I'd want to go out with my wife is when I kinda hung it up.

They have LFR nowadays to kind of mend this, but LFR is like the least amount of fun I've ever had in an MMO ever. It's just so mindless and undertuned and you just feel like you're in this big MMO daycare where they jingle keys in front of you to keep you entertained.
 
Zefah said:
While it makes each individual more valuable in general and increases challenge in that sense, it also reduces the challenge of coordinating a massive force of individuals and making sure everyone knows exactly what to do and when. That was a huge part of the fun of EverQuest raids and the sense of accomplishment was incredible when you finally bested a powerful boss before anyone else on the server.
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How exactly is telling 39 other people first pull starts at 8:00pm server time, when in reality, starts at 8:48pm server time, challenging? A mass e-mail or guild note is not a challenge. If people do not come when called, that is not your fault nor can you do anything to make them come at a specific time other than dangle that piece of "maybe" loot in front of them?

It's not a challenge getting 40 players to work together since there are only 4 archetypes the entire raid gets lumped in:

Tank
Melee DPS
Ranged DPS
Heals

You're not telling 40 individual people what they need to do - you're telling melee where to stand, ranged where to stand, healers where to stand and Tank is obvious. You're still grouping everyone into basically 4 players.

What is the difference between 60 players divided into 4 groups taking down a huge boss or 5 players taking down a huge boss? What makes the 60 people so special? Because they showed up within an hour of the raid start? Because they followed the rest of the avatars for their chosen archetype?

The thing is that if you lose 3 melee DPS, 4 ranged, 1 healer and 1 tank - it really won't make a dent in the overall outcome of a 60 man because someone will pick up the slack a bit.

It's much harder to organize a group of 5 to take down a dungeon than 60. Simply because damn near half of that 60 won't be pulling their own weight and don't matter. In a 5 man - everyone has to pull their own weight.

Fake Edit:
Again, sorry if I sound combative, it's just my style of typing I think. I also think it serves to show just how much I loathe raiding after all these years ha! Nothing against you or anyone that likes it - I just think the design is fundamentally flawed.

I don't want you or anyone to think i'm coming at anyone :D

Edit:
Also, please let me know if I come across the wrong way or sound like a prick since that is not my intention.
 
Jack_AG said:
Raiding, by design, isn't about testing a player's skill. It's about testing a group's ability to not watch TNG on their second monitor while raiding. It's about giving a player a repeatable time-sink with a small chance at getting 1 piece of armor or weapon they need to progress to the next time-sink. It's about creating an environment for subscription fees by dangling a shiny piece of loot in front of a player and telling them they can't walk into the next dungeon unless they hit a specific item level requirement, forcing them to dump hours into antiquated dungeons just to walk into the next antiquated dungeon for more whack-a-mole combat.

Raiding is counter-intuitive. Dungeon grinds should be fun and unique. They should not rely on "We need 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 pure dps and one hybrid with an offspec/set for healing.

They should be dynamic. They should not be predictable. Will GW2 dungeons fill that role of unpredictability? I don't think we are to that point yet of knowing for sure - but the simple fact that you can have 5 different archetypes with 5 different builds every time you step foot in the same dungeon will make for interesting gameplay. You are not shoehorned into "you stand here until..." "you do this until..." "keep an eye on DBM and right before X timer goes off do this..."

I don't see GW2 dungeons being whack-a-mole. Not saying people won't get bored of them - but by simply removing the trinity you have to create boss fights with greater dynamics and less scripting since you will never know the player makeup of a particular group.

/rant off

Sorry if I offended you or anyone else - just had to speak my mind after years or raiding... by design, it's just not fun the way it is. If it were about the player skill and no gear treadmill, things would be entirely different and we'll have to see how it plays out in GW2.

EDIT:
Another update... check your clients if you haven't already.
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I honestly don't see how you can say that about raids and think that GW2 dungeons will bring anything different to the table sans a different threat dynamic. They will still do X where you need to do Y before G happens, you just won't need a "tank" or a "healer" for specifics.

By removing the trinity you DO KNOW the makeup of an entire group - support/CC and/or DPS. I honestly don't know how they will create more than just a whack-a-mole design but that is to be seen. It will still require the coordination of a team much like it would if you had a tank/healer/DPS setup. I don't understand what these mobs will do if they don't have X ability that hurts Y that you need to move out of the way of. I mean ... you can only have a mob do so many dynamic things before it's just impossible to beat at all.

I just don't understand what you think will be brought to the table by these mobs just because you're bringing 5 of the same type of characters. I mean, besides support, CC, and DPS what else can classes do? Doesn't that actually simplify what tactics you can use because other games have support, DPS, CC, tank, and healer? Honestly asking.

You really simplify tactics there as you could raid stack certain classes (something that WILL be done in GW2 once people find the path of least resistance for dungeons) and things were dynamic in many fights ... of course a boss can have so many things it can do, what would you expect? These aren't other players here, there HAS to be some sort of AI involved based on what the players are bringing.

I'm not sure if you were just in the best guild but there was definitely challenge and to say there was no "skill" involved is just wrong. Skill is based on repeating something until you are very good at it. Basketball players have skill because they've taken the same shot over and over and over and over. The same goes with any game. Unless you were carried you had to have some sort of skill and knowledge of an encounter and in the case with WoW that bar did lower as time went on.

PVP was almost just as predictable in any MMO I've seen. You will use the same skillset based on what another player does and most likely (if you are good) you know what skillset they are going to use. I can't even count how many 5v5 WoW matches went down almost always the same way. Stun off healer, kill main healer ... or when it was stacked DPS stop the cleave from happening then repeat kill healer and/or weakest class that could be cleaved down.

Now, what I do agree with you on is how they went about it. The gear grind sucked in most MMO's I've played, it was fun and such for a while but a % off a boss without anyway to really 'grind' towards an item you wanted really sucked. Honestly, the worst part about raiding WAS the gear grind. The encounters were almost always enjoyable if you had the proper gear and good people to play with no matter how many times you did it (much like MANY games people replay).

I don't agree with the schedules most raiding guilds adhered to or the way they made it a 'second job' ... but the mechanics were there (for WoW at least) that made those encounters really enjoyable and until you had the encounter down it was up in the air. If you read wiki's and had people telling you what to do that's a different story but the first time in 40 man Naxx was absolutely hell (the fun type of hell), where you had to learn stuff.

The grind is gone in GW2 it seems, there won't be a gear grind so anybody can go anywhere once they are 80, but I honestly don't know what you expect out of the mobs as there is a limit to what mobs can do before it's just unfair for a group.

Don't get me wrong, raiding definitely had its downside, but it was extremely enjoyable if with the right people and you weren't just being carried to get a certain piece of gear (which even then could be fun).

Jack_AG said:
How exactly is telling 39 other people first pull starts at 8:00pm server time, when in reality, starts at 8:48pm server time, challenging? A mass e-mail or guild note is not a challenge. If people do not come when called, that is not your fault nor can you do anything to make them come at a specific time other than dangle that piece of "maybe" loot in front of them?

It's not a challenge getting 40 players to work together since there are only 4 archetypes the entire raid gets lumped in:

Tank
Melee DPS
Ranged DPS
Heals

You're not telling 40 individual people what they need to do - you're telling melee where to stand, ranged where to stand, healers where to stand and Tank is obvious. You're still grouping everyone into basically 4 players.

What is the difference between 60 players divided into 4 groups taking down a huge boss or 5 players taking down a huge boss? What makes the 60 people so special? Because they showed up within an hour of the raid start? Because they followed the rest of the avatars for their chosen archetype?

The thing is that if you lose 3 melee DPS, 4 ranged, 1 healer and 1 tank - it really won't make a dent in the overall outcome of a 60 man because someone will pick up the slack a bit.

It's much harder to organize a group of 5 to take down a dungeon than 60. Simply because damn near half of that 60 won't be pulling their own weight and don't matter. In a 5 man - everyone has to pull their own weight.

Fake Edit:
Again, sorry if I sound combative, it's just my style of typing I think. I also think it serves to show just how much I loathe raiding after all these years ha! Nothing against you or anyone that likes it - I just think the design is fundamentally flawed.

I don't want you or anyone to think i'm coming at anyone :D

Edit:
Also, please let me know if I come across the wrong way or sound like a prick since that is not my intention.
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Because those groups are dynamic in themselves. You're not telling "Melee" to just get out ... I mean, on some fights sure. Take the 4 Horseman in 40man Naxx, that was almost 8 sub groups that had to switch and be relatively self sufficient while paying attention to the entire raid and health. That fight was insane! Same with C'thun in 40 man, it was all about your small group and taking things out as they appeared.

When you have a 40 man raid like in Naxx with entry level gear ... ONE person can wipe that raid if they die, everybody had to know what to do, when to do it, and where. You say people not pulling their weight but you're speaking of farm status at that point if you take a 25 man down to 19 and still beat the encounter. This, is another thing I kind of disagreed with the "treadmill".

I know where you stand! I'm that way too, but I can't deny that for a couple years, raiding was awesome. What it became after playing for too many hours to count was what I hated. The treadmills, the hours, the people not showing up (usually wasn't a problem in the top guilds as you had backups).

And don't worry, you're not being combative, I'm practically in the same boat with my outlook on 'raids' in the other games. It just doesn't fit my lifestyle or playstyle anymore. But, I can't deny that the first months of most raids were an absolute blast trying to figure things out. Hell, I remember the second boss in BWL 40 man sitting in their with my officers for an hour or so just talking strategy and where we should stand and such ... that's good times.

But yeah, don't worry about the conversation man, it's just a discussion!

@Weltall and Retro, jealous of my Wall of Text up there? =P
 
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