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[CLEEK]

You're logic is flawed. I don't think people have a problem with the procedures and medical science.

Oh, that must be why stem cell research is A-OK in the minds of the religious right.

Of course the religious arbitrarily cherry pick which medial procedures is moral and which are not.

Abortion, much like that actual birth itself, is a medical procedure. A medical procured that can have a variety of reasons to perform it, but one none the less.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Also, pro-life is a misnomer. Anti-choice is far more accurate.

Anti-women is what it sounds like.

 

[Devolution]

I know. The 'sort of' was facetious. That was the entire point of the post I made and then drew his attention to. His comment that "I love (hate) how this always turns into an argument about social programs" because you cannot separate the two. It is one topic.

Indeed. Certain choices are only as good as their options.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Anti-women is what it sounds like.

Well, of course. That goes without saying.

 

[Yaboosh]

It may have a benefit to society at the expense of personal freedom.

Abortion disposes of personal freedom without net benefit to society.

I would say it disposes of personal freedom with a net negative to society.

But still, I think forcing people to give blood is a decent idea.

 

[Timedog]

If you cause a car accident in which you are ok but someone else gets hurt, your organs are forcibly harvested and given to them.

The only real difference here is that a fetus is not a person, and that I was lying in the first sentence above.

Beautiful.

 

[RDreamer]

Here's the Daily Show segment where it gets flipped on males, and they talk to someone that sponsored a personhood amendment

 

[Timedog]

I would say it disposes of personal freedom with a net negative to society.

But still, I think forcing people to give blood is a decent idea.

Oh whoops, meant negative, LOL.

 

[Devolution]

Here's the Daily Show segment where it gets flipped on males, and they talk to someone that sponsored a personhood amendment

I remember that episode. He clearly did not understand a thing when the guy asked him how he would feel about being told what he couldn't do with his body.

 

[foodtaster]

there are no legitimate arguments against pro-life. the woman can do whatever she wants until the baby is born. if she is so compelled to abort the baby a few weeks before the baby is born, then so what? (that being said, in my opinion a woman shouldn't be able to do it that late, but it's not really my choice)

what is worse, a baby unborn or the creation of a un-nurtured life? if the millions of miserable orphans are any indication, the answer is clear. an extreme view, sure, but when many of these people are killing themselves and suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death for adolescents, you see it makes sense.

don't bring children in the world that you cannot love with all of your might. and don't start with the adoption nonsense. the U.S adoption process is a joke (though it's getting much better, fast, AFAIK)

 

[Yaboosh]

Oh whoops, meant negative, LOL.

No you spoke right, you just said it doesn't have a net positive, which I think is clearly true. I was just trying to take you further and say it not only doesn't have a net benefit, it is hurtful to society to ban abortions.

 

[Slavik81]

You can unknowingly use a term that has a charged meaning. This is what's happening. The term "unborn child" is, I think, clearly not a scientific or medical term. It is a term created by people who want to appeal to emotions by referring to something that isn't a child as a child, and then putting the semi-disclaimer at the beginning. The word "child" in and of itself has a lot of connotations and baggage in every single person alive that I don't think really belongs in a debate about a fetus and what should happen to it. So, yes, people may use the term like that in neutral situations, but they've just fallen victim to both propaganda and to people who are careless about their own word choices in matters of importance.

Of course it's not a medical or scientific term. It's a colloquial term, appropriate for a colloquial discussion. If you want to debate your opponents on a field of rigorously defined terminology with carefully defined arguments, built of detailed premises and conclusions, I would be particularly thrilled to read it. I'm not being sarcastic. I love that stuff. But nobody in this thread has done that, because that is not the sort of discussion that is generally found on NeoGAF.

Even if I were to grant you that it's a loaded word, dismissing an otherwise well-made argument based on nothing more than the mistaken use of a well-understood word is simply lazy.

So, scientifically speaking, when does it go from fetus to child/baby?

Birth to adolescence would be the normal definition in biology.

 

[Duffyside]

Anti-women is what it sounds like.

Contrary to popular misconceptions, not all babies are boys!

 

[Jackson]

don't bring children in the world that you cannot love with all of your might. and don't start with the adoption nonsense. the U.S adoption process is a joke.

So work to make it better? What kind of argument is that? Let's throw our hands up for everything that doesn't currently work well!

 

[CLEEK]

Ummmm....wtf

Burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise.

 

[foodtaster]

So work to make it better? What kind of argument is that? Let's throw our hands up for everything that doesn't currently work well!

added a clarification. you are correct, it should be made better, and is becoming better quickly.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

So work to make it better? What kind of argument is that? Let's throw our hands up for everything that doesn't currently work well!

But that's The American Way!

 

[Timedog]

To Republicans, the ability to do what you want with your own money is more important than the ability to do what you want with your own body. If someone wants to tell them what they should do with their money, it's the worst offense imaginable. But it's perfectly okay for them to tell other people what to do with their bodies.

Money > Bodily autonomy

 

[Mercury Fred]

Contrary to popular misconceptions, not all babies are boys!

Hi, a bundle of cells is not a baby. Cheers.

 

[Suairyu]

Someone clarify for me:

Does GOP just mean 'Republican'?

 

[MIMIC]

Burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise.

You just equated a human being to "having a soul". So I'm not a human being because there is no such thing as a soul? What you posted made absolutely no sense.

there are no legitimate arguments against pro-life. the woman can do whatever she wants until the baby is born. if she is so compelled to abort the baby a few weeks before the baby is born, then so what? (that being said, in my opinion a woman shouldn't be able to do it that late, but it's not really my choice)

what is worse, a baby unborn or the creation of a un-nurtured life? if the millions of miserable orphans are any indication, the answer is clear. an extreme view, sure, but when many of these people are killing themselves and suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death for adolescents, you see it makes sense.

don't bring children in the world that you cannot love with all of your might. and don't start with the adoption nonsense. the U.S adoption process is a joke (though it's getting much better, fast, AFAIK)

This is the dumbest thing I have ever read.

 

[Devolution]

To Republicans, the ability to do what you want with your own money is more important than the ability to do what you want with your own body.

Money > Bodily autonomy

Last time I checked there aren't mandatory vasectomies for dudes with several baby mamas on welfare.

 

[foodtaster]

This is the dumbest thing I have ever read.

feel free to say what you think is dumb. fact is, this thread is just a bunch of men arguing about an issue we cannot comprehend personally. the world is already rampant with overpopulation, do we really want children in the world whose mothers do not want them? let's get real here.

 

[Dany]

Someone clarify for me:

Does GOP just mean 'Republican'?

Yes. Grand Old Party are the republicans.

 

[Raonak]

A fetus needs a woman's womb to live. she should be allowed to abort aslong as it needs her to surive.

we really don't need more low income single mothers in this overpopulated world.

 

[Yaboosh]

Last time I checked there aren't mandatory vasectomies for dudes with several baby mamas on welfare.

Wait, do you really think that the GOP would really have a problem with that if they could get away with it?

 

[Aylinato]

Someone clarify for me:

Does GOP just mean 'Republican'?

yes, it means the Grand Old Party, it's their slogan.

 

[Izick]

Oh, Republicans.

 

[ronito]

Wait, do you really think that the GOP would really have a problem with that if they could get away with it?

depends, do the mandatory vasectomies include white men?

 

[Air]

Oh, that must be why stem cell research is A-OK in the minds of the religious right.

Of course the religious arbitrarily cherry pick which medial procedures is moral and which are not.

Abortion, much like that actual birth itself, is a medical procedure. A medical procured that can have a variety of reasons to perform it, but one none the less.

I recall under Bush that there were laws enabling stem cell research, especially for adults. It was always embryonic stem cells that was the problem. I guess you can make the case that bush wasn't part of the religious right as it is understood today.

http://stemcells.nih.gov/policy/2001policy.htm

People have been giving birth for thousands of years, I think other religious people would be ok with that. Again this controversy stems from where you define a human. Pro-lifers generally define it around inception, pro-choicers generally will define it several months after, but a couple of months before the scheduled birth. So your last point still doesn't make sense to me, and just comes across as a way to get cool points on the Internet.

 

[Devolution]

depends, does it include white men?

It most certainly does. I don't recall them caring so much if men are sexually free and active. The onus is on women to keep their legs shut.

 

[Duffyside]

Maybe the fetus is a human, but it's just better policy to acknowledge it as a human-fetus that can be aborted. People don't want to hear that though.

This is why I make an effort to partake in these discussions. The pro-choice movement always shows its true, ghastly colors.

Hi, a bundle of cells is not a baby. Cheers.

It is a human. Bye.

 

[Devolution]

This is why I make an effort to partake in these discussions. The pro-choice movement always shows its true, ghastly colors.

daffyside pls

 

[Angry Fork]

Are you guys really shocked by this?

Really?

Usually they try to hide it since they need the women vote but now they're just coming right out about it. They really think the tea party base is enough to win elections it seems but we'll see what happens.

 

[Yaboosh]

depends, do the mandatory vasectomies include white men?

Yes, it does. But only those on welfare.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Cuz children are just like parasites. Or cancer.



.

Unless humanity was struggling to maintain a decent population children are pretty much that most of their lives let alone when they are not near birth.

 

[Divvy]

This is why I make an effort to partake in these discussions. The pro-choice movement always shows its true, ghastly colors.

Do you believe that we choose the option where more lives are spared?

 

[CLEEK]

You just equated a human being to "having a soul". So I'm not a human being because there is no such thing as a soul? What you posted made absolutely no sense.

'Human Being' is an ambiguous term. Certainly not a scientific one. It can mean any member of the homo genus (does a neanderthal have a soul?), or just a person. But the common theme is that it is an actual person.

Is a human foetus a human being? Nope, not until the foetus has become a baby. And a foetus doesn't become a baby until it is born.

 

[Timedog]

This is why I make an effort to partake in these discussions. The pro-choice movement always shows its true, ghastly colors.



It is a human. Bye.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly

Also a human. Should we force mother's to carry these babies to term?

 

[Suairyu]

Devo, that picture in that link looks really scary. Horror movie scary.

yes, it means the Grand Old Party, it's their slogan.

Cheers.

It is a human. Bye.

It can't even be recognisably classified as such until it starts to develop a brain and other human organs, and probably even beyond that.

Unless, of course, you want to classify every sperm and egg as human too.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

They stir up the base with this bullshit every 2-4 years and then go right back to not giving a flying fuck when congress seats/presidencies aren't up for grabs.

 

[Devolution]

Devo, that picture in that link looks really scary. Horror movie scary.

It can't even be recognisably classified as such until it starts to develop a brain and other human organs, and probably even beyond that.

Unless, of course, you want to classify every sperm and egg as human too.

Women who menstruate are all mass murderers. That's timedog btw.

 

[ronito]

Yes, it does. But only those on welfare.

oooh, that's hard to call. On one hand you have the white and on the other you have the poor....

 

[Loofy]

Guys remember this?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=452953

I dont know why theres so much outrage at the police officer kicking a parasite.

Same with those drunk doctors that accidently decapitated the not-yet baby.

 

[Devolution]

oooh, that's hard to call. On one hand you have the white and on the other you have the poor....

If it's in their voting blocks why would they want to cull their votes. Besides it's an issue that's always been focused on women.

 

[Timedog]

Women who menstruate are all mass murderers. That's timedog btw.

Actually, that's manslaughter babe.

 

[Suairyu]

Women who menstruate are all mass murderers. That's timedog btw.

You guys are stealing me and Chinner's shtick with that avatar sharing business!

Actually, that's manslaughter babe.

That presumes that, ahem, THE GOP doesn't consider it the fault of the menstruating woman.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Guys remember this?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=452953

I dont know why theres so much outrage at the police officer kicking a parasite.

Yes, because it was obviously her choice to be savagely beaten.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Guilty Of Penetration: Gift Of Pregnancy

Government Oppressing People

Guns Over People

Group Of Peabrains

Gag On Penises

 

[MIMIC]

'Human Being' is an ambiguous term. It can mean any member of the homo genus (does a neanderthal have a soul?), or just a person. But the common theme is that it is an actual person.

Is a human foetus a human being? Nope, not until the foetus has become a baby. And a foetus doesn't become a baby until it is born.

So what is a "person"?