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[Karakand]

Good god, Scalia-style conservatism has captured the Millennials. The little snits might be worse than the baby boomers.

The "everything will be puppies and ice cream once all the Boomers are dead" meme is some real fun ageism.

 

[watershed]

Many schools use race based quota systems.

If they fill up the quota will upper income african americans or upper income asians, that still counts and they tout it as "diversity"

When people look around campus brochures for diversity they see skin color and in college websites, they often tout their race percentages, but how many colleges do you see talking about how many poor kids they admit? I've yet to see one.

You said "sole factor" for admissions which race clearly is not. Also plenty of schools talk about the students they accept who come from poor neighborhoods or students who come from poor public high schools. Also many people have already brought up the various financial aid programs that are specifically designed to aid high performing students from lower class backgrounds. Its not either or.

 

[ronito]

This wont be popular but I believe that an organization of education should have the freedom to create a diverse student body to prepare their students for a broader life experience. I do believe that should include socio-economic backgrounds as well as racial backgrounds.

This comes from a guy who went to BYU, a school with 30,000 students only ~150 black students. Now I do think that's most likely due to the fact that not that many black people probably applied. Now if they had a bunch more black people apply and they wanted to maybe have more than 150 black people on campus to try and court more minority applicants I think they have the prerogative.

Now I don't think it needs to be institutionalized or mandatory. But I do believe that organizations have the right to shape their organization's demographics as they see fit, or not.

 

[quaere]

To those who feel that affirmative action does not foster a meritocracy:

It is an undeniable fact that Blacks in america perform less well in school and are less likely to enter college. Do you feel that this represents their true merit, and that black people simply aren't as intellectually vigorous as other races?

That is an honest question. If your answer is "yes," then you are explicitly a racist. If your answer is "no," then I'd be interested in hearing why you think this achievement gap occurs. To get you started: my answer is persistent cultural racism.

Yes, I think the numerical measurements of merit used in college admissions (which affirmative action as typically implemented circumvents) are representative of true merit. That's a major reason the racial achievement gap remains just as bad once in college. Is it any wonder less academically qualified students fail to graduate at a higher rate than more qualified students?

The problem with affirmative action in a university context is it is simply way too late. It would be far more effective to fix the schools in underrepresented minority communities so that by the time these students are applying to college they can compete on academic merit. To continue with college level affirmative action as a main method to correct for racial disparities is to admit failure at providing adequate primary education.

 

[zoku88]

Yes, I think the numerical measurements of merit used in college admissions (which affirmative action as typically implemented circumvents) are representative of true merit. That's a major reason the racial achievement gap remains just as bad once in college. Is it any wonder less academically qualified students fail to graduate at a higher rate than more qualified students?

The problem with affirmative action in a university context is it is simply way too late. It would be far more effective to fix the schools in underrepresented minority communities so that by the time these students are applying to college they can compete on academic merit. To continue with college level affirmative action as a main method to correct for racial disparities is to admit failure at providing adequate primary education.

I'm not sure if your first and second paragraphs match. Either that, or you didn't understand what I believe he meant by 'true merit', since he did mention performance in college in a previous post.

By true merit, I think he means what an individual's ability would be in a society where race didn't matter.

EDIT: Although, I think the numerical measurements of merit in college admissions wouldn't be a true measure of merit, even in an equal society. But that's beside the point.

 

[masud]

Meritocracy? Lol where they do that at?

 

[Onemic]

Yes, I think the numerical measurements of merit used in college admissions (which affirmative action as typically implemented circumvents) are representative of true merit. That's a major reason the racial achievement gap remains just as bad once in college. Is it any wonder less academically qualified students fail to graduate at a higher rate than more qualified students?

The problem with affirmative action in a university context is it is simply way too late. It would be far more effective to fix the schools in underrepresented minority communities so that by the time these students are applying to college they can compete on academic merit. To continue with college level affirmative action as a main method to correct for racial disparities is to admit failure at providing adequate primary education.

So you think anyone that gets into university through AA is just some dumbass that only got in because of their race?

 

[quaere]

By true merit, I think he means what an individual's ability would be in a society where race didn't matter.

I've defined merit for the purposes of my post as academic merit.

So you think anyone that gets into university through AA is just some dumbass that only got in because of their race?

Affirmative action, as typically implemented, causes its average beneficiary to be less academically capable than the average nonbeneficiary at the same school or business. This deficiency then shows up in the outcomes such as graduation rates or employee retention. Affirmative action is a poor way to correct for a deficiency in academic preparedness.

 

[captmcblack]

I've defined merit for the purposes of my post as academic merit.

Affirmative action, as typically implemented, causes its average beneficiary to be less academically capable than the average nonbeneficiary at the same school or business

Wait, so AA *causes* its beneficiaries to be underqualified?

 

[quaere]

Wait, so AA *causes* its beneficiaries to be underqualified?

Sorry, "results in".

 

[Htown]

Is it time for me to talk about the implicit racism in the assumption that AA generally leads to underqualified black people getting jobs over more qualified white people?

Here's a hint.

Why do you think there is always a more qualified white person?

 

[Vicetrailia]

I've defined merit for the purposes of my post as academic merit.

Affirmative action, as typically implemented, causes its average beneficiary to be less academically capable than the average nonbeneficiary at the same school or business. This deficiency then shows up in the outcomes such as graduation rates or employee retention. Affirmative action is a poor way to correct for a deficiency in academic preparedness.

At work, people use this mindset to downplay every single new black person who comes in, regardless of their credentials. White? "Hey, glad you're here!". Black? "What are you doing here?"

Black people, no matter how intelligent they are get treated like this out of the gate. It's disgusting.

 

[quaere]

At work, people use this mindset to downplay every single new black person who comes in, regardless of their credentials. White? "Hey, glad you're here!". Black? "What are you doing here?"

Black people, no matter how intelligent they are get treated like this out of the gate. It's disgusting.

Sounds like you have some very racist coworkers.

 

[Htown]

 

[travisbickle]

Make economic status, not race, the criteria, and you are not violating the spirit of the constitution and you get the same or better results.

Any research on this? or is it just a hunch?

 

[Zoramon089]

Any research on this? or is it just a hunch?

Lol, what do you think?

 

[timetokill]

The ideal method, IMO, for school admissions:

- No names, only numbers
- No genders
- no races
- Socioeconomic status-based AA

 

[AkuMifune]

The point where common sense must be a provable metric is when I know sheltered GAF has laid claim to a thread.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Sounds like you have some very racist coworkers.

Have racist attitudes subconsciously. Subtle, but still easy to pick up. Not KKK Racist.

 

[Miletius]

No.

If something is a factor then in some cases it is a deciding factor - those are the cases where the person would not have made it in were they a different race. If AA were never a deciding factor it would be functionally nothing.

Here is a thought experiment:

Person A has a 3.2 GPA and a 1300 SAT, etc
Person B has a 3.2 GPA and a 1300 SAT, etc

Person A is asian, person B is white. I take person B, all other things being equal. Now what was the "deciding factor"?

Now take the case where person A, the asian person, actually has a HIGHER GPA, and person B still gets in. This does happen all the time. (You can also substitute "is the child of an alum" or "is from Nebraska")

If race were never the deciding factor then AA would be pointless. In the case it would not alter who was admitted and may as well not exist.



Not only is it true, it is the entire point. (Although I would replace "deserving" with "qualified based on non-racial criteria) There are two scenarios here:

1. The set of people getting into a college are exactly the same with and without AA - in this case AA is pointless.

2. The set of people getting into college is different with AA than without - in this case race was a deciding factor for EVERY person who made it in with AA who would not have made it in without.

If you compare the set of people who would make it without AA to the set of people with AA where those sets differ is by definition people where race was the deciding factor.

Your "thought experiment" is not sufficient because it ignores a) any other mitigating factors and b) it too broad to really be applicable in the real world. In either case you are taking 2 kids with very different histories and trying to squeeze them into a matrix containing 3 categories -- SAT Score, GPA, and race. That's not how the real world works at all and that's not how college admissions work.

Any college admission counselor or HR person will tell you that the selection process looks at many different aspects of a person and qualitatively evaluates them based on many different factors. Trying to boil those factors down a, b and c, where c is categorically something that keeps one person over the 2nd is just not realistic in real life. As you mentioned, other factors could be "soccer player" or "flutist" or "ex-soldier," or "president of the student council." There are a lot of non-mathematically viable qualities in each application.

Yes, AA is a factor in admissions, intended to assist minorities in the admissions or job hunt process. But there isn't ever a circumstance where an unqualified person can just waltz in ahead of another person simply based on their status as a minority. Say the only Hispanic to apply to Harvard one year was a 3 time 12th grade repeater who scored a 680 on the SAT. Do you think they are going to let him in solely based on racial preference?

 

[Cipherr]

:lol

 

[Superman00]

People are putting way too much emphasis on AA as if a huge population of the student body is there only because of AA. There may be a quota at a lot of universities, but I doubt it is that huge of a percentage. Universities take a look at GPA, SAT score, extracurricular activities, leadership and etc.

I'm asian and I do agree that as a minority, there is a lot of subtle racism toward us because we are the model minorities. We have to work harder than everyone else in order to be recognize. Not only do we have to work harder than other race, we have to work harder than the next asian.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Are you?
What programs, exactly? How do you know you're benefiting?

My race is put into consideration when being accepted. They obviously do not outright tell me what exact benefits my race has given me or if I wouldn't have been accepted if I were white.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Here's the solution. Stop using AA as a modifier for admission or hiring. Start increasing funding to underprivileged children of all races. A child of any race that is poor is at a disadvantage. The child had no part in his/her parents' financial shortcomings. If you want to even the playing field, help all children in that situation. How is a white child raised in a poor broken home any more at fault for his/her situation than a poor black child whose family has been deprived of resources from a history of slavery and segregation?

 

[Ultima_5]

Wasn't there a curb your enthusiasm episode where larry made an affirmative action joke?... it's not really on topic, but it vaguely relates to the topic.

 

[BobLoblaw]

Wasn't there a curb your enthusiasm episode where larry made an affirmative action joke?... it's not really on topic, but it vaguely relates to the topic.

Season 1, Episode 9.

In my opinions, I'm for AA but ONLY when everything is 100% equal. If there's a job that comes down to two candidates, one white and one non-white, and they both have the same experience, degrees, etc, then go with the minority. Otherwise go with whoever's best qualified. Same goes for universities.

 

[Dmented]

Season 1, Episode 9.

In my opinions, I'm for AA but ONLY when everything is 100% equal. If there's a job that comes down to two candidates, one white and one non-white, and they both have the same experience, degrees, etc, then go with the minority. Otherwise go with whoever's best qualified. Same goes for universities.

Here's what happens when it's not 100% equal. It's pretty crazy.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...by-culture-of-complacence-incompete/?page=all

 

[IHaveCandy]

Season 1, Episode 9.

In my opinions, I'm for AA but ONLY when everything is 100% equal. If there's a job that comes down to two candidates, one white and one non-white, and they both have the same experience, degrees, etc, then go with the minority. Otherwise go with whoever's best qualified. Same goes for universities.

Why not create a new merit-based method of deciding? First of all, the notion that there would ever be two candidates that are 100% identical is rather ridiculous. Second, even if that were to happen, choosing one over another based on race is still completely absurd.

 

[twobear]

Perfect. It's pretty mindblowing the number of unqualified people who get into college. To blame the problems on the small group who actually are qualified is absurd.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

That about sums it up.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Affirmative action isn't without its draw backs. The question is, is it better than the alternative?

 

[Gattsu25]

This is perfect

 

[way more]

Gotta love white kids who have parents that pay for their car, tuition, housing, and health insurance say they don't want to see others get a free ride.

Edit: I don't mean anyone in this thread but more the people sampled in this survey. I spent a lot of time with financially supported, white, frat boys who thought it was ironic to say "nigger" and that white men were the most oppressed people in history.

 

[Trojita]

The fuck is the criteria for a millenial? I was thinking of Christianity Apocalypse or SMT when seeing that in the topic..

Here's what happens when it's not 100% equal. It's pretty crazy.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...by-culture-of-complacence-incompete/?page=all

Ninety-seven percent of the bus and train operators at the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority are black, with only six white women out of more than 3,000 drivers, according to Metro documents — a lack of diversity at one of the region’s largest employers that has led to an acknowledgment of failure in affirmative-action documents and spawned a series of lawsuits.

The homogeneity, interviews with dozens of current and former Metro workers indicated, is a proxy to a clubby culture of favoritism in which merit has little to do with promotions, and accountability, such as noting safety violations, is a career death knell. In typical examples, court and Metro records show, a black man who spent eight years in prison for dealing PCP was promoted to a high-level management position soon after his release, and whites in the same positions as blacks with far less seniority are inexplicably paid less.

It is a culture in which a white male engineer near completion of a Ph.D. was passed over for a management position in favor of a black man who was barely literate, multiple staffers said.

Shiiiieeet.


The DC Metro is incompetent as fuck.

 

[Famassu]

Here's the solution. Stop using AA as a modifier for admission or hiring. Start increasing funding to underprivileged children of all races. A child of any race that is poor is at a disadvantage. The child had no part in his/her parents' financial shortcomings. If you want to even the playing field, help all children in that situation. How is a white child raised in a poor broken home any more at fault for his/her situation than a poor black child whose family has been deprived of resources from a history of slavery and segregation?

This has already been answered.

1) poor white people DO get help, you're acting like they are just ignored by everyone
2) poor white people aren't in as bad a situation as people from poor minorities

 

[travisbickle]

Season 1, Episode 9.

In my opinions, I'm for AA but ONLY when everything is 100% equal. If there's a job that comes down to two candidates, one white and one non-white, and they both have the same experience, degrees, etc, then go with the minority. Otherwise go with whoever's best qualified. Same goes for universities.

There's no "best qualified", there is either under-qualified, qualified, or over-qualified.

 

[zoku88]

Here's the solution. Stop using AA as a modifier for admission or hiring. Start increasing funding to underprivileged children of all races. A child of any race that is poor is at a disadvantage. The child had no part in his/her parents' financial shortcomings. If you want to even the playing field, help all children in that situation. How is a white child raised in a poor broken home any more at fault for his/her situation than a poor black child whose family has been deprived of resources from a history of slavery and segregation?

Uhm, one is treated differently in society than another?

I'm not sure how you haven't noticed, but black people tend to be treated by society worse than white people. More negative stereotypes as well (especially when it comes to intelligence.) More targetting by police. etc.

To boil down all problems as being socioeconomic is incredibly naiive. Or maybe willful ignorance.

It's great that none of those things ever happened to you, but to ignore that it happens to many other people is incredibly mean.

 

[IrishNinja]

I don't like affirmative action. Meritocracy is a far preferable system of determining optimal candidates.

actual meritocracies are an ideal, like utopias. they'd don't exist.

 

[Serenity]

The fuck is the criteria for a millenial? I was thinking of Christianity Apocalypse or SMT when seeing that in the topic..





Shiiiieeet.


The DC Metro is incompetent as fuck.

Then the rest of the country is too except you know switch the white and black people in this story :/

 

[wildfire]

The bolded parts of this study are pretty lulzy, btw.

That said, I think once all of the damage of the centuries of racially-based socioeconomic inhibitors - which, until roughly 1965 were de jure for many groups of people - is completely and quantifiably fixed, then all "affirmative action" should be based completely on one's financial standing.

Until then, the reasons for affirmative action in its current form still exist and are still necessary to help level the playing field.

How would you quantify as fixed?

 

[HarryHengst]

The fuck is the criteria for a millenial? I was thinking of Christianity Apocalypse or SMT when seeing that in the topic..





Shiiiieeet.


The DC Metro is incompetent as fuck.

Switch black and white in that story and its how America works. America is still such a deeply racist and discriminating country it is shocking and goddamn hilarious when people think they live in a post-racial country. It is not a coincidence that, for example, prisons are mostly filled with black males, its an example of policy working as expected.

The fact that discrimination is forbidden by law does not mean it does not exist anymore, something those millenials interviewed apparently seem to forget.

 

[Byakuya769]

And it's the fucking truth. I worked as a graduate assistant in the office of development/alumni relations, and they received the donor calls that coincided with applications from a mediocre student all the time.

 

[Trojita]

Then the rest of the country is too except you know switch the white and black people in this story :/

The shit remark was in reference to the article. The incompetent part was in reference to actually having to use their service.

Also in reference to the other replies, I have never worked at any place that had that high of a disproportionate number of one race aside from local demographics, but then again I live in the North.

 

[Dude Abides]

Here's what happens when it's not 100% equal. It's pretty crazy.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...by-culture-of-complacence-incompete/?page=all

I would not take any claim in the Moonie Times at face value.

 

[C4Lukins]

Well 43% of people are wrong.

This sort of thought process perpetuates racisim. "You need help to achieve."

 

[way more]

Well 43% of people are wrong.

This sort of thought process perpetuates racisim. "You need help to achieve."

All those millionaires that created wealth from a vacuum would be so ashamed. Sounds like the 43% were those lazy bones that had parents and public education, and streetlights.

 

[C4Lukins]

All those millionaires that created wealth from a vacuum would be so ashamed.

Do you really believe wealth is created from a vacuum?

 

[LuffyZoro]

Malingie's post here is a good one. I'll just emphasize again the racist implications of believing that a system sans AA is "meritocratic."

Let's say I believe that a system without affirmative action is purely meritocratic, and that everyone gets exactly what is "merited" to them or what they "deserve" based on their intelligence and work ethic.

Now, consider again that Blacks in America perform noticeably worse in aggregate than Whites or Asians in High School, and are significantly less likely to go to college, even when we consider socioeconomic status. Again, if I believe everyone is showing their true "merit" and that everyone gets what they deserve, then I am implicitly arguing that black people are inferior. It's the only logical conclusion, if I begin with the premise that my society is a truly meritocratic one. Black people simple don't deserve as much "merit."

However, if I instead assume that my society is not inherently meritocratic, and that black people perform worse because of persistent, cultural biases against them, then if we want a meritocracy, something has to be done to un-tilt the table and create as reasonable a facsimile of real meritocracy as we can.

That "something" is Affirmative Action. If you have a better solution to help balance the system, I'm all ears. Balancing by socioeconomic status helps to a degree, but it does not address the problem of racism, which is still very significant and persistent in our culture.

I wouldn't argue that Black people are inherently inferior, obviously, that would be ridiculous. However, you can see the achievement gap, and I would say that by the time you're getting to college admissions that an individual person's "merit" is pretty much fixed. I think that a better solution would be to intervene earlier, so that the achievement gap is much smaller by the time you get to college.

 

[Arksy]

Malingie's post here is a good one. I'll just emphasize again the racist implications of believing that a system sans AA is "meritocratic."

Let's say I believe that a system without affirmative action is purely meritocratic, and that everyone gets exactly what is "merited" to them or what they "deserve" based on their intelligence and work ethic.

Now, consider again that Blacks in America perform noticeably worse in aggregate than Whites or Asians in High School, and are significantly less likely to go to college, even when we consider socioeconomic status. Again, if I believe everyone is showing their true "merit" and that everyone gets what they deserve, then I am implicitly arguing that black people are inferior. It's the only logical conclusion, if I begin with the premise that my society is a truly meritocratic one. Black people simple don't deserve as much "merit."

However, if I instead assume that my society is not inherently meritocratic, and that black people perform worse because of persistent, cultural biases against them, then if we want a meritocracy, something has to be done to un-tilt the table and create as reasonable a facsimile of real meritocracy as we can.

That "something" is Affirmative Action. If you have a better solution to help balance the system, I'm all ears. Balancing by socioeconomic status helps to a degree, but it does not address the problem of racism, which is still very significant and persistent in our culture.

That's a pretty big assumption to make, that a system without AA is purely meritocratic. I'd say that from that premise, the rest of the argument is flawed.

A system without AA isn't by necessity meritocratic but a system with AA cannot be purely meritocratic.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Of course it's opposed by millennial. They didn't live through the historic context of why such programs were originally thought to be needed.