Great work, especially appreciate the final paragraph:
Ben Kuchera said:
Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
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NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Well, if you took out the iOS/Android games it drastically shortens that list. If there's one place where the argument of absolute shit and no moral reviewing is being done it's iOS/Andorid market. Pretty much 10/10 or 3/10. The market's in it's infancy, and to be honest using some kind 5 star or 10 point system on casual games is ridiculous to say the least, it should be more of the Kotaku YES/NO system.
Also, keep in mind that most movie reviews are using a star system, and you can't fully compare that to the 10 point system used in most game reviews. Taken against their own field it still works decently as an aggregate, just not useful for comparing different mediums.
Then again, I don't particularly have a grudge with Metacritic (or say Gamerankings that pre-dated it).. but it's pretty bullshit how it's used for bonuses and how it's made sites review different versions of the games with basically the same text just get a ranking on there.
It's a decent piece, but easily read? No fucking way, it's in drastic need of an editor. Dude needs to learn what a run-on sentence is!
I think there's some decent sites out there for people who are looking for legit journalistic approach to gaming.
jim-jam bongs
Member
magnificent.
APZonerunner
Member
Credit to Kuchera for following up.
It's worth pointing out to the US crowd with regards to MCV in general - it isn't a consumer magazine. It's a trade magazine. It goes out to managers of game stores, publishers, distributors, that kind of thing. It's not at all impartial, it doesn't do reviews, and it solely exists to hype up and big-up the industry, basically.
You can't buy it off a store shelf or whatever - usually if you work for a company in games they'll order copies in as part of a mass subscription. I know, for instance, that every GAME store gets a copy of MCV every week, as a friend of mine who worked there used to sling me their issues after they'd read them every week. It's mostly dedicated to that crowd. They'll have interviews not with developers, but with Marketing Managers, explaining how their awesome new ad campaign will shift millions of units - things like that.
I've seen a number of people pointing to MCV's content in the past week as an example of something negative, but you do need to keep in mind that apart from all this other horrid shit that site/magazine isn't intended to ever be read by the general public/consumers, even if sometimes there's an overlap.
It's worth pointing out to the US crowd with regards to MCV in general - it isn't a consumer magazine. It's a trade magazine. It goes out to managers of game stores, publishers, distributors, that kind of thing. It's not at all impartial, it doesn't do reviews, and it solely exists to hype up and big-up the industry, basically.
You can't buy it off a store shelf or whatever - usually if you work for a company in games they'll order copies in as part of a mass subscription. I know, for instance, that every GAME store gets a copy of MCV every week, as a friend of mine who worked there used to sling me their issues after they'd read them every week. It's mostly dedicated to that crowd. They'll have interviews not with developers, but with Marketing Managers, explaining how their awesome new ad campaign will shift millions of units - things like that.
I've seen a number of people pointing to MCV's content in the past week as an example of something negative, but you do need to keep in mind that apart from all this other horrid shit that site/magazine isn't intended to ever be read by the general public/consumers, even if sometimes there's an overlap.
I do also believe that sports are more important than games.
As for your second point, traditional game media (IGN, EGM, and so on) is close to being hopeless. But, I believe as long as gaming continues to be popular it will find a nice niche in the lifestyle, entertainment or technology sections of more traditional outlets. The industry is growing, the hobby is popular and there are lots of interesting stories to be found. Plus, I feel. traditional outlets will see the potential for traffic from game enthusiasts and want to get in on the traffic.
RedNumberFive
Banned
Disgusting. I hope this shit follows her for the rest of her "career."
No, you're probably right. But at least I'll be able to say I haven't been to a gaming site since the Rab Florence debacle.
It'll be a small consolation, but I'll feel better about myself.
Florence-gate? We need a catchy term for this that doesn't use that....woman's, name.
Five years ago, game sites like those we're championing in this thread (RPS, Kill Screen, PA Report) didn't exist. I'd like to think that in another five years, there will be more like them.
I also like how you squeeze a word like "meaningfully" in there. It saves you from actually being accountable since it's a word predicated on a value judgment, but you toss the $500 figure in there to make it sound like an actual, quantifiable bet. Spoken like a politician/lawyer.
Florence & the PR Machine.
good work by kuchera and the pa report.
nice to finally see a comment by eurogamer and to clear up the legal threat existence thing that mcv tried to obfuscate with twitter comments. probably took him about as long as a halo unboxing video to send that email over to bramwell too.
nice to finally see a comment by eurogamer and to clear up the legal threat existence thing that mcv tried to obfuscate with twitter comments. probably took him about as long as a halo unboxing video to send that email over to bramwell too.
I can't imagine her being able to hold a straight face during a conversation with another journalist (if she ever gets a chance) - our libel laws are loathed by real journalists. The only reason they haven't been changed yet is because our politicians love the status quo.
I imagine she'll continue writing freelance for non-enthusiast mainstream press (The Sun etc) while looking for a quiet PR job...
EternalGamer
Banned
You should have listened to last week's Cheap Ass Gamer podcast. They accused Rab of being a dick (even titled their show after it) and said Wainwright was only guilty of being young and not knowing the ropes.
Ha!
Clapping starts slow and rises to a standing crescendo.
Also, I feel bad for mean tweeting her just now. Very juvenile.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
What am I supposed to say? Am I supposed to say that in five years it will still be Monday, October 29, 2012? I can't say that it won't be *any* different! So I chose "meaningfully" -- i.e., different in any way that is relevant to the things that you all are concerned about. Is that fine? Sorry, sir.
Because people know you mess with PA, you will not come out of it unscathed.
funkystudent
Member
Stephen Totilo ‏@stephentotilo
@ZombieSPni Not scared in the slightest. A story is forthcoming later this week.
WE WON!!!!
It only took a week and days of internet fighting but they got there in the end.
But man that Wainwright lady sure dug a hole for herself.
At first I would say a well worded statement of apology would have fixed things but Im sure that making legal threats even though you know you have no ground to stand on would probably open a whole other can of worms.
Will be interesting to see what she does next. My guess is she wont even mention it ever again and will have a job in PR at Square within the next 6-12 months making legal threats when ever a game gets under a 8.5.
@ZombieSPni Not scared in the slightest. A story is forthcoming later this week.
WE WON!!!!
It only took a week and days of internet fighting but they got there in the end.
But man that Wainwright lady sure dug a hole for herself.
At first I would say a well worded statement of apology would have fixed things but Im sure that making legal threats even though you know you have no ground to stand on would probably open a whole other can of worms.
Will be interesting to see what she does next. My guess is she wont even mention it ever again and will have a job in PR at Square within the next 6-12 months making legal threats when ever a game gets under a 8.5.
i'd imagine that pr companies like their employees to be more discreet than wainwright is, working subtly to influence people instead of taking a bold step that backfires and makes their company look dreadful in the media. but well, she does have the contacts.
thread title change pronto!
thread title change pronto!
I liked this paragraph:
I think Lauren won't be posting on GAF anymore after this, and with good reason.
Is it worth pursuing now, Kotaku, that you are being shown how it's done?
EternalGamer
Banned
All I know is I:
-clicked on two separate ads on that Kuchera story page.
-tweeted it
-Facebooked it
-liked it on Facebook
In other words, I did all that bullshit media people always want you to do but I have never once done before in my life. That is how much I appreciate Kuchera's coverage.
You sure you aren't a lawyer?
You were talking about the gaming press. You said it wouldn't be "meaningfully different" in five years. If I take your bet and come to collect in five years, you'll point to something like how IGN is still the same bunch of tools and crass commercialism it's always been. I'll point to the dozen or so respectable new gaming sites doing real work in the field, but you'll respond by saying it's not "meaningfully different." Like I said, it's a value judgment and utterly unquantifiable.
WrenchNinja
Member
She posted on GAF before?
Really? For shame.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Well I feel a lot less sorry for Wainwright after those confirmations. Some of the stuff she has been criticised for have been things many of her peers do too but threatening libel certainly isn't. It is surprising that she didn't realise how it would make her look though.
Apparently, yes. At least as far as I can remember from this thread.
It also seems that some gaming press that were dismissing this story are now commenting on the part about her threatening libel and the cover-up as if it is a new discovery from the PA story. That's what people have been arguing about this entire time.
https://twitter.com/aegies/statuses/262995387575590912
I don't understand why everyone was so hesitant to believe the story from the start. From the beginning Rab said that EuroGamer had no choice because of the libel claim. The tweets Wainwright made regarding this were out in the open.
MCV seemed to have lied or bended the truth when responding to questions if Intent threatened a libel lawsuit.
Arthur Gies said:
https://twitter.com/aegies/statuses/262995387575590912
I don't understand why everyone was so hesitant to believe the story from the start. From the beginning Rab said that EuroGamer had no choice because of the libel claim. The tweets Wainwright made regarding this were out in the open.
MCV seemed to have lied or bended the truth when responding to questions if Intent threatened a libel lawsuit.
faceless007
Member
I'll bet you $500 that in five days you won't have convinced most of the people in this thread pushing for change that it's totally hopeless and there's no point to discussing the issue at all.
If you can't lay out the exact and explicit objective quantitative changes that would have to happen for your bet to be satisfied, it's a pointless bet because there's no arbiter.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
TunaMarshmallow
Member
Yes, very sure.
Well, what you're basically saying is that I could just be dishonest about the whole thing. That's true. I could be. But I won't be.
It isn't as if all facts are empirical facts. There are many truths which can't be specified in quantified terms. If, as you said, there was a groundswell of independent media sources performing the kind of work you have in mind, that would obviously constitute a meaningful change, and only a liar would say otherwise.
Contrarians gonna contrarian
They said no legal action was "taken" which pretty much confirms it was threatened, it's just a slimy way of making it sound like it wasnt.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
1. I would never take that bet. You're right.
2. I've already gotten a much more positive reaction than I was anticipating.
3. I've not said that pushing for change is hopeless. What I've said is that pushing for change *within the current system* is pointless. Building an alternative media from the ground up is not only doable in principle but *very* doable in practice, and I've not said otherwise. (What I have said, and what is primarily a matter of taste, is that I don't see any reason to have such a media structure in place. But that's neither here nor there.)
bigdaddygamebot
Member
It made my heart grow three sizes today.
jim-jam bongs
Member
how anyone could believe that in the first place blows my little mind
I think he was just trying to redirect our rage in a more constructive direction, but she was able to redirect it right back to herself almost instantly.
She's like a Mroll. Half man, half troll. She's her own worst enemy.
SolidSnakex
Member
You're probably right, but I thought that this issue would've been dead days ago. Yet this topic seems like it just sits on the front page, and now we have a tweet from Stephen saying that Kotaku is going to run a story on it. So, we're seeing more sites pick up on it. Does that mean that IGN, Game Informer, Gamespot etc. are going to run it? Who knows, but at least we're seeing more people care about it.
Bumping for Stephen. I don't know what your story is about, but if I can help...
Here are the tweets of MCVUK EIC Michael French shortly after the fallout.
https://twitter.com/Michael_French/statuses/261464206883311617
Later he responded to Ben Kuchera
Looks like someone must have been twisting the truth.
Michael French said:
https://twitter.com/Michael_French/statuses/261464206883311617
Ben Kuchera said:
Later he responded to Ben Kuchera
Michael French said:
Looks like someone must have been twisting the truth.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
I mean something more like this:
Even if this story is the talk-of-the-town for the next month, and even if the EIC of every major enthusiast outlet on the planet publishes an editor's letter about it and promises to crack down in house, I believe that the overall climate of the games-enthusiast press will be the same in five years, and I believe that it wil not be rivalled by any alternative grassroots media structure.
yeah and she liked to follow games journalism controversies on here which is somewhat ironic.
that thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=495020&highlight=stanton
edit: totally missed shagg beating me with actual posts. go to his post.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I just felt a bit bad about the pile on and didn't feel comfortable coming to any conclusions without knowing the real facts. What we knew did point to that but it could have been her employers behind it.
Awesome work. It fills me with so much fuck that GAF has turned out to be the best investigative journalist to come out of this.
Though unexpected I guess.
The goal of this thread is exposing the problem to a larger audience. Period. Even if the industry never changes as a result, we still will have done a good thing. Your requirement for actual change as a result of this discussion is nothing but a false dilemma you're placing on us.
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