Giant Bomb Thread The Third: #TeamBrad
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Mr. Enigma
Member
Brad gets all the shit, but Ryan can be a big, fucking dumbass at games too.
I just don't understand why you would have a QL that's half Desmond. Then when everyone is waiting for the Desmond parts, he goes out of his way to do more of it. Also him losing the guy during the chase scene was sad.
No wonder he's late on the review. I like Ryan but cmon man you play games for a living...
Best explanation we've come up with so far is that they don't think the footage is especially flattering when blown up past its native resolution (though we would likely display it at native with a border, like in 3DS QLs).
At least I hope that's it. It's hard to imagine that sheer ineptitude is guiding their policy on this.
Arlecchino
Member
I've always found it pretty ridiculous that playing games "for a living" somehow gives you a license requiring you to be good at games at all times. I understand this is mostly brought up during extreme examples of ineptitude. But the whole idea is a ridiculously false premise. (That's not to say this invalidates any of the criticism of the game playing; I can understand it being frustrating)
firehawk12
Subete no aware
This is Sony. Don't expect too much of them!
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
You have to imagine if someone does something for hours upon hours on a daily basis, they would naturally develop a talent for it .. the idea is not far fetched by any means.
Especially if someone claims to be a devoted fan of a franchise, he should be picking up the mechanics of a new entry better than an average player.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Presumably, their talent is in writing/making videos though.
Typographenia
Member
Maybe you can buy one with your Sony rewards points. Better check that list again.
While you do have a point, I'd assume you pick up certain things just from being around games and having to play them. I never said a games journalist needs to be good at all games, I play a ton of games and I don't consider myself good at them all. My gripe here is that Ryan showed off the game really poorly with his play, and it's a shame because we know how into the franchise he is. I don't really think it takes "talent" to be serviceable at a game. There are some common sense things that any person with experience playing games should be able to pick up.
Empty Space
Member
I'm not saying the people who give Brad and Ryan shit all the time are right, but the "for a living" bit is a totally valid point to make. Have you ever watched somebody play a single player game who doesn't normally? Basic things like how objective markers work and what to do during a quick time event totally escapes them not because they are stupid or incompetent , but because they haven't been conditioned to understand those mechanisms. It really is interesting to watch two people with vastly different amounts of experience approach a game. I'd imagine Brad, Ryan, or anybody who chose to do this kind of work would have the same understanding you or the people who post on this board of just how games in general work.
Edit: Beaten a couple times over.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
They don't play games for a living. They review games for a living. They are two distinct occupations.
That's all well and good when you're playing by yourself at home and you can focus purely on the game. Playing in a production environment and trying to carry on an intelligent conversation at the same time is not that, not even remotely.
Not sure why I even post this response anymore, nobody listens or cares.
I understand what you're saying.
Meatvillain
Banned
As long as there is someone playing videogames on the internet there will be someone there to complain about how terrible they supposedly are at it.
Typographenia
Member
That's what always got me into trouble when I was younger. I'd be playing something, my parents would ask me a question, and I'd have to wait until I was done focusing on the game to respond. Parents weren't as understanding of my dilemma, in most cases.
People listen and care Brad, stop focusing on the negative posts!
Actually, I think that the majority of people *do* listen to you here. I assume that most of the people who are still posting the "Giantbomb is bad at video games" stuff are either doing it sarcastically or haven't been active in this thread long enough to know any better.
That's a fair point, hadn't really thought about that. My point does stand about the actual section of the game that was shown.
I don't really pop into the thread too often so sorry if I offended you with my ignorance.
Anyways back on AC3, I think I was more frustrated by how poor the Desmond stuff seems to look. It definitely seems like a whole other studio worked on those sections entirely. The faces for the Assassins are terrible.
Mr. Enigma
Member
I understand. I didn't really respect that until I started playing single-player games on Twitch.TV livestreams. There is a pressure there to keep viewers engaged and perform well at the game. It's a hard balance to find sometimes.
A relatively popular Twitch/esports dude I know said to me yesterday (paraphrasing) "just did my first play and talk type deal, holy fuck is that hard"
Earlier today I was talking to Jeff about something random while he was playing Halo 4 multiplayer and he just jumped straight into a pit for no reason mid-sentence.
It happens!
People forget how badly they actually play games. With all this quick restarting and no death penalty, their past mistakes cease to exist as soon as they restart. I think if people actually recorded themselves playing and rewatched it, they'd have a different opinion about the skills in these quicklooks. They seem to ignore how easily the smallest things trip them up.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Yep...there's a reason why game devs try to have separate people be dedicated to talking and dedicated to driving the demo when presenting something.
Empty Space
Member
You get way too much shit for what the most part amounts to a simple mistake that could easily be done be anybody who has to juggle speaking, trying to present a game, and possibly trying to learn something new all at the same time. I know that every time somebody asks me whats interesting about the current game I'm playing I lock up, stutter and mostly talk about it while navigating the menus.
I think what a lot of people here are talking about has more to do with some of Ryan's questionable choices on how to quicklook AC3. I get it he has a deadline to meet and showcasing what he did killed two birds with one stone, but that doesn't change the fact the video was boring and frustrating to watch if informative.
Ryan reviewed and played through all the Assassins Creed games. Once you've played for a couple of hours it isn't hard at all to then grasp how it all works. If he has played them all surely he should have decent if not a good understanding of to play the game well.
It's the most basic of things he struggles with that's why people bring it up. Using a mini map or looking at the whole screen shouldn't be challenging especially if you have played video games in general for all these years.
Another one of these conversations.
They play a lot of games, and they're trying to hold entertaining conversations simultaneously. Plus, they're playing with the knowledge that thousands of people are watching. Cut them some slack. There are plenty of other places you can go if you want to see high-level video game play.
They play a lot of games, and they're trying to hold entertaining conversations simultaneously. Plus, they're playing with the knowledge that thousands of people are watching. Cut them some slack. There are plenty of other places you can go if you want to see high-level video game play.
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
I really don't see why it is such a foreign concept to people. I know even if I'm just in a Live Party with my friends, if I'm in an engaging game, then I tend not to talk much. The only time I seem to be able to talk and play as well as normal is MP shooters, SP is way too hard for me.
Arlecchino
Member
The main thing I've noticed is not only is it more difficult to hold a conversation while playing a game (along with being aware what you're doing is going out to thousands of people) but also that the perception of the person playing is different from the person watching.
When you're watching, at least for me, I'm way more focused on UI elements and instructions. Whereas while you're playing you can definitely lose track of things.
When you're watching, at least for me, I'm way more focused on UI elements and instructions. Whereas while you're playing you can definitely lose track of things.
MiniBossBattle
Member
Can't you guys purchase a Vita Dev Kit? It has an HDMI out
brianmcdoogle
Member
Fair enough. One can appreciate good design without being able to have the manual dexterity to play the game. This reminds me of showing my friend Bioshock and having him attempt to play it. He was really into video games up until the N64; he had never played a dual-stick FPS, so he could barely make it to the submarine contraption in the beginning of Bioshock. Yet, he was able to pick up on the environmental clues, understand the lighting cues, and other nice design details. I played and he watched and was wishful that he could actually "play" the game.
Yet, I do wonder what we consider to be important traits of video game reviewers.
For example, I mentioned earlier a lot of movie mistakes I readily notice on my own without anyone pointing them out. I catch these things because I read about film theory, know how to study a frame, understand the basic (very basic, sadly) concepts of photography and editing, and so on. I've taken the time to learn the basics, and some intermediate information, about the medium. I also know programming, have programmed and designed my own games, and so on.
Ebert isn't just a good writer; he knows his movies. He knows its theories. He knows when a scene disobeys the 180-degree rule. He knows when action scenes lack any sense of spacial acuity, or when fast editing is masking bad direction and incoherent action (see Transformers). He's not harping on nitpicks of plot, or bad dialogue lines (though he points them out if there are some). There is a depth to his reviews and analysis that is missing from youtube commenters and forum posters. It is the reason he is so decorated a writer.
I guess what I'm getting at, and what I think about for far too much, is that game reviewers simply are uneducated in the medium of making games, and culture and the world at large). They know nothing of programming, scripting, design, and so on. Yes, they use the word "design" a lot, but in some nebulous concept that only serves to confirm their superficial enjoyment of a game (Tokyo Jungle), or to trash a game. Are some of them good writers? Yes. And do they have a lot of knowledge of games from years of playing them? Sure. But, without knowledge of how these things we called video games work, it is mostly just referential.
I'm rambling, and I'm definitely not trying to be accusatorial to anyone at Giant Bomb or in the press in general, but these thoughts just pop into my mind when we have these "serious" discussions on game reviewers and game "journalism", a word that must be placed in quotes since these people don't study journalism, or at the very least go to college. There exists books and literature on game theory, the theory of play, basic psychology, and so on that I doubt reviewers for games ever bother to read. It's like hearing that Quentin Tarintino became a filmmaker because he watched a lot of movies, and failing to recognize that he also read a lot of stuff on film itself.
I feel like some of this can be applied to game makers as well. Maybe it is because I've been watching a lot of movies lately, and the last game I played to completion was a month or two ago, but there is just an emptiness to video games that I feel is not going away. Of course there is a satisfaction to pressing buttons and having that translate to actions on the screen, but... I don't know. I haven't had a series of intellectual thoughts about a video game since Braid, and while I enjoy the Mass Effect series greatly, they are a guilty pleasure. Even highly praised games like Bioshock and Spec Ops: The Line are either undermined by their play mechanics or far to concerned with appearing to be serious and heavy that they hang a lantern on other works that are of greater importance that are filled with subtlety.
Anyway, I've had my say. And I'm rambling.
Back to the topic at hand, I still wish they go back and finish The Ripper. Or, even Load Our Last Save. What was the last episode of that series?
Again, didn't really mean to incite a discussion about skill.
My frustration came from the structure of the quick look mixed with Ryan's play. We really didn't need 30 minutes of Desmond stuff and 25 minutes of running around in a forest. They only showed a city for a minute or 2.
I think that the really unplanned stuff is awesome for Farming Simulator or whatever, but it's a bit different for a game like this with alot of eyes on it.
Mr. Enigma
Member
Rudds, if you're still here, have you guys ever trashed a Quick Look and re-did it because you didn't like how it turned out? Or do you always go with the first take no matter what?
chickdigger802
Banned
Don't most youtube folks just record the playthrough and do a commentary pass afterwards?
I don't think it would be needed for GB (no1 came here for MLG speedruns or w/e), but it does seem like a decent approach.
I don't think it would be needed for GB (no1 came here for MLG speedruns or w/e), but it does seem like a decent approach.
But a lot of the funny from the GB QLs are unplanned.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Well, I will say... how much do sports journalists have to know about the sport in order to properly right about it? They may know all the rules, all the plays, all the history... but only a minority of them will ever play at the pro-level or understand the feeling of being down a goal in the dying minutes of a playoff game.
I look at video games in that manner, where the experiential nature of the game is privileged over everything else. So things like "gameplay" become terms that people talk about as opposed to, well, scene composition or framing or any of the more technical aspects of cinematography when we talk about film.
As for the knowledge gap, that's the problem. Playing games is only half the process when it comes to thinking about games - getting into the components of game design is important as well, but it's very rare for people to come up in that direction. You'd have to be part critical, part creative, and part expressive... but that's just a big ask for most people.
As useless as a film degree can be, especially if you aren't actually in the film production side of the equation (ie, you don't want to be a grip or a gaffer or camera operator or whatever), there's something useful about just studying a medium both as an artistic endeavor and as an object of critical study. I don't know if games will ever reach that point though... the people who go to "game schools" are more interested in coding and making games than anything else it seems.
brianmcdoogle
Member
You don't have to play at pro-levels. You don't need to know how to be a great programmer. But, you need to know the pitching strategy when you have a guy on first and second in the 7th inning when up 3-2. Otherwise, you're just saying "oh, that was a strike" and so on. And, this problem isn't only specific to game reviewers, but it is much more prevalent.
Understanding the basics is my plea, and the curious knowledge to read and expand their intellectual vigor.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
You're talking about thousands of people so realize you are painting with a pretty broad brush with a statement like that
What a fucking Newb, man.
darkressurection
Banned
I will corroborate the "talking and being entertaining while playing a game is hard" story. I recently got capture equipment and basically set out to make GB style video stuff. It is EXTREMELY easy to just miss stuff, especially when it is just text on the screen. I was screwing around streaming a JRPG and went to check stream chat and when I turned back to the game I just thought "Wait what the fuck was I supposed to be doing again?"
I remember playing games in arcades when I was a kid I'd always start messing up if I noticed someone stopped to watch me play. Except in multiplayer/sports games for some reason, where it had the opposite effect.
Now I haven't watched the AC3 quick look because of spoilers, but was Ryan playing a section of the game he hadn't played before? I think that's always a bad idea when they do that in quick looks of story-heavy games, they're kind of ruining that section of the game for themselves.
Now I haven't watched the AC3 quick look because of spoilers, but was Ryan playing a section of the game he hadn't played before? I think that's always a bad idea when they do that in quick looks of story-heavy games, they're kind of ruining that section of the game for themselves.
I should be doing hw
Member
To play devil's advocate, Ryan was sure fucking up a lot during long moments of silence in that QL. In fact the whole vibe of that video seemed less an attempt at entertainment than it was to stream a game on release date. I don't even mind if he is or isn't playing very well, but definitely wasn't a QL to go back to because of all the uneventful meandering through the world with dry commentary.
Does Sony even sell those to non-developers? Plus isn't it super crazy expensive?
Brad's response is completely accurate and understandable. From the end-user perspective though it can be extremely frustrating. As an easy example I literally could not watch the Chrono Trigger endurance run. On screen text would indicate clearly where they need to go, and then they would run in the opposite direction for 20 minutes wondering where to go. I think that's the only time where I was like "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING??"
But generally yes, they do stupid shit but most people probably wouldn't do any better in that environment anyway, and it's not usually something that detracts from the video.
This.
Also, with many console games, modern auto-saving can make it very difficult to 'pick' a part of the game you want to re-play for a Quick Look (especially if you haven't finished the game yet and you can't risk messing with your own auto-save).
Yes. And he couldn't have picked a worst moment in the game to show off, in terms of story and mission. But also the save system makes it impossible to go back in the campaign.
They really should have put a "SPOILERS. WE WILL RUIN AC3 FOR YOU" bumper at the start of the QL though, like they did back in the day for the Fallout 3 DLC.
Meatvillain
Banned
This is a bummer and a bit of a step backwards after Brotherhood/Revelations :/
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