EternalGamer
Banned
Truly a philosophical question for the ages.
Great piece, Totilo. Tweeted, Facebooked, liked, signed up for Kotaku account, etc.
If i do this stuff often enough maybe sights will get the message.
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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
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Truly a philosophical question for the ages.
Great piece, Totilo. Tweeted, Facebooked, liked, signed up for Kotaku account, etc.
If i do this stuff often enough maybe sights will get the message.
The Omega Man
Member
From Totillo's article:
Way to trivialize the issue, what a terrible quote to choose, it is not the the t-shirt and the broken statue what makes me think your perception of the game you are reviewing has been compromised; it's the travels to Korea that Blizzard paid to one of the people from your show, it's the trip to Italy for one of the Assassins Creed games, or the trip to Hawaii you took from Capcom and the other one to Italy from Capcom as well, so you think all those travel sucked?
then by all mean don't accept free PR trips anymore, should I check my head because I think all those PR paid trips have influenced you and your crew some way or another?
You guys are delusional if you think all those PR treats haven't influenced you, de-lu-sio-nal.
Way to trivialize the issue, what a terrible quote to choose, it is not the the t-shirt and the broken statue what makes me think your perception of the game you are reviewing has been compromised; it's the travels to Korea that Blizzard paid to one of the people from your show, it's the trip to Italy for one of the Assassins Creed games, or the trip to Hawaii you took from Capcom and the other one to Italy from Capcom as well, so you think all those travel sucked?
then by all mean don't accept free PR trips anymore, should I check my head because I think all those PR paid trips have influenced you and your crew some way or another?
You guys are delusional if you think all those PR treats haven't influenced you, de-lu-sio-nal.
Edit: Oh snap, one year old video! Still fucking hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKDfYkg1Le4
Around 1:04
That ain't Mountain Dew....
Really? It was about as self-serving as they come with the "we have to suffer through people keep saying we suck even though we're great". And it went out of its way to portray Lauren in a better light by deliberately omitting facts.
jim-jam bongs
Member
never assume malice when incompetence is just as likely an explanation
Stephen (Kotaku) claims they always get rid of swag, everything gets given away, donated or simply thrown away and no one would ever take anything like that for themselves. Kotaku video editor posts a picture of himself on twitter being prepared for a long gaming session. People notice that huge freaking flag (Ubisoft swag) in the background, which is said swag that Stephen said isn't being taken home by anyone and gets thrown away.
chickdigger802
Banned
jim-jam bongs
Member
seriously, I can't believe how badly Geoff Keighley has owned himself here
Was there any repercussion for this in any way?
chickdigger802
Banned
owned? how so?
To give him so credit, he acknowledges that is was a mistake and kinda admits that swag innevitably gets sent home in the article. But also, he also avoids mentioning this mishap in the article about conflicts of interests in games media, it kinda hurts the point of saying swag dont matter and then present a tweet of someone with a flag....with a AC3 hashtag...with also sandy hashtag.
EternalGamer
Banned
I want to talk about this defense:
Do any hardcore gamers think mainstream gaming media represent "arrogant oppression"? I can see someone (incorrectly in my view) referring to film, tv, or book critics in an anti-intellectual way as cultural snobs, but game writers? They seem to mostly fall all over themselves to defend big IP and blockbusters that get blowback from hardcore gamers. Sure there are the occasional cases of RE6 or Uncharted 3 (both of which, I might add, also received a fair amount of hyperbolic praise in the gaming press despite a lack of uniformity), but there are far more cases like Call of Duty, Halo, Mass Effect 3, Dragon Age 2, and others where the press serves as vanguards of the competent retread and high review scores. I mean, this is an industry where an 8/10 review score is considered "bad." There is a reason for that. It is because games media have consistently doled out high scores to games they dont think are particularly unique or interesting but hey they have millions of dollars in production values so "8.5."
I am sure the videogame media would like to flatter itself that it is defending the frontlines of intellectual culture. It probably makes them feel better about taking a BA in liberal arts and then dedicating their lives to writing about videogames. But if they actually believe they are defending a hardline of high expectation, then maybe they are putting too much emphasis on the post of anonymous 12 year olds complaining on their website that their favorite game did not get a 10. Taking the comments of ranting kids and juxtaposing their opinions to it to demonstrate their higher standards just demonstrates how they are exactly the opposite a serious critic trying to defend a "respectable opinion."
To put it another way this thread is largely about how games media are often too complicit with PR agendas and look how long it is, how many contributors there have been, and how much conversation it has generated. Now compare all this to any thread complaining about how a certain game didn't get a higher score. The former complaint totally dwarfs the later in every regard.
John Walker said:
Do any hardcore gamers think mainstream gaming media represent "arrogant oppression"? I can see someone (incorrectly in my view) referring to film, tv, or book critics in an anti-intellectual way as cultural snobs, but game writers? They seem to mostly fall all over themselves to defend big IP and blockbusters that get blowback from hardcore gamers. Sure there are the occasional cases of RE6 or Uncharted 3 (both of which, I might add, also received a fair amount of hyperbolic praise in the gaming press despite a lack of uniformity), but there are far more cases like Call of Duty, Halo, Mass Effect 3, Dragon Age 2, and others where the press serves as vanguards of the competent retread and high review scores. I mean, this is an industry where an 8/10 review score is considered "bad." There is a reason for that. It is because games media have consistently doled out high scores to games they dont think are particularly unique or interesting but hey they have millions of dollars in production values so "8.5."
I am sure the videogame media would like to flatter itself that it is defending the frontlines of intellectual culture. It probably makes them feel better about taking a BA in liberal arts and then dedicating their lives to writing about videogames. But if they actually believe they are defending a hardline of high expectation, then maybe they are putting too much emphasis on the post of anonymous 12 year olds complaining on their website that their favorite game did not get a 10. Taking the comments of ranting kids and juxtaposing their opinions to it to demonstrate their higher standards just demonstrates how they are exactly the opposite a serious critic trying to defend a "respectable opinion."
To put it another way this thread is largely about how games media are often too complicit with PR agendas and look how long it is, how many contributors there have been, and how much conversation it has generated. Now compare all this to any thread complaining about how a certain game didn't get a higher score. The former complaint totally dwarfs the later in every regard.
Onion_Relish
Member
If someone wanted to pay me to drive a Ferrari or fly me to Italy, I would take the offer in a heartbeat. I'd still pan the game if it was garbage. It's called ethics, try it some time.
QUOTE=EternalGamer;44007854]Post[/QUOTE]
Yeah, its seems like an exaggeration, theres always a small part of for audience that is wary at your actions and their implications. It happens in most media but ive noticed that game journalists always bring it up in a defensive and sometimes outright offended manner, the responses to those comments arent any better. Its a non-issue that has nothing to do the Wainwright situation, just like the horrible offensive comments made against her.
Yeah, its seems like an exaggeration, theres always a small part of for audience that is wary at your actions and their implications. It happens in most media but ive noticed that game journalists always bring it up in a defensive and sometimes outright offended manner, the responses to those comments arent any better. Its a non-issue that has nothing to do the Wainwright situation, just like the horrible offensive comments made against her.
jim-jam bongs
Member
...
really? whatever credibility he has ever had has disappeared into a swirling flush of dorito and dew stained diarrhea circling the toilet bowl of this corrupt industry.
Your brain then wires the game x to a positive experience. There are things you cannot influence about this. It's called psychology.
I'm sure he has always aspired to be the Doritos Pope.
Blue Ninja
Member
As a student of journalism, I should've started reading this thread a lot sooner. Definitely interesting, but I haven't read enough yet to start clamoring my opinion from rooftops.
There's obviously something wrong with the games press when games that are inherently buggy or unpolished are still praised into the heavens, even if the buggyness is cause for a lot of frustration. It's something we've all known for years, but checking out some more recent reviews for recent games has made me wonder about it again.
Anyway, back to reading.
There's obviously something wrong with the games press when games that are inherently buggy or unpolished are still praised into the heavens, even if the buggyness is cause for a lot of frustration. It's something we've all known for years, but checking out some more recent reviews for recent games has made me wonder about it again.
Anyway, back to reading.
EternalGamer
Banned
It was an evenly divided piece. I think it is clear where Totilo comes down on the issue, but he does give a lot of space to voices like Robert Florence, Jeff Green, and Shawn Elliot. Whether or not I think it takes some of these criticisms too lightly it at least does not dismiss them.
chickdigger802
Banned
what credibility? He hosts the spike VGAs and is a face on the television.
But sacrificing one's credibility allows him to do his excellent Final Hours features occasionally.
Keighley has pretty much always been a host type personality who endorses stuff and then does some occasional good journalism on the side. And he is certainly being transparent about everything, which is all we can really ask.
jim-jam bongs
Member
I remember seeing the orange smoke from g4 announcing his selection, truly an historical moment.
yes, and who is going to take any of those "excellent" features seriously now?
MiniBossBattle
Member
Can't wait to see the Doritos pope signs & cutouts at the VGAs.
The point of these things at least in part is to make the games "journalist" feel special and that quite obviously does work.
JohnWalker said:
This is just hilariously delusional.
Being a games "journalist" requires no real knowledge or skill of any kind. Members of the games press don't appear to have any more expertise than the average Gamefaqs poster.
He makes it sound like they are highly trained and educated scientists.
Edit"
SomePRGuy said:
Right now people in the press hang their ethical hat on reviews. The same person who goes to an event doesn't do the review, reviewers aren't influenced, etc - as if reviews were the start and end of where integrity matters. But for a PR person a major goal is to build up so much pre-release hype that the reviews are ultimately irrelevant.
chickdigger802
Banned
I mean Geoff been doing this for years. Don't think anything has changed besides him being a meme now.
stephentotilo
Behind The Games
I meant to note that she had written about Square Enix games but didn't have that in what was published. I added a note about that shortly after the piece ran. Her argument is that she didn't cover the games she did mock reviews of and therefore thought there wasn't a conflict of interest. That's what I was trying to convey there, not that she'd never written about Square Enix games at all, because, of course she did. It's been well-documented.
I think it goes without saying that not everyone would agree that the standard she expressed there isn't one that everyone would agree is best. But she's clearly re-thinking this stuff, so we'll see what happens.
stephentotilo
Behind The Games
Thanks. I had a couple of comments from you ready to make the final cut. One survived!
That was her argument? eh
jim-jam bongs
Member
well I'll have to agree to disagree on that, this farce has moved him from the status of occasionally insightful mouthpiece to walking joke. that's a notable shift as far as I'm concerned.
Her argument was also that it's common for the games press to also collect paychecks from publishers. Why was there no follow up to that?
I actually would like to know exactly who those people are so I can avoid giving them any clicks or reading their stuff. If it's common, why don't we hear about it, why don't these people disclose this when they think it's okay? More questions than answers, really.
stephentotilo
Behind The Games
Isn't it clear? He even wore a pope hat made of doritos!
jim-jam bongs
Member
yeah, I was referring to the quote rather than the picture but hey, keep fucking that chicken.
There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with companies doing cross promotion or with a host personality taking money to promote said cross promotion.
jim-jam bongs
Member
context is irrelevant, clearly.
I'm not sure how I didn't make this connection until now, but I'm sure the reason journalists are so tired of hearing about corruption is that the most common accusation of corruption comes from fanboys complaining that reviews or coverage are paid off by Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo/Activision/etc. because a game scored too high or too low. For example, before this broke, the only accusations of bias I heard directed towards Giant Bomb were about how they hated Sony because they don't talk about their games enough on podcasts and don't do Vita Quick Looks.
That's not a good reason to avoid dealing with more legitimate criticism, but the console wars stuff has to have an effect.
That's not a good reason to avoid dealing with more legitimate criticism, but the console wars stuff has to have an effect.
That's true! Also, the never-ending deluge of writers who think that game journalism is broken and that they are the ones who can fix it.
I finally read Kotaku's article. It's an interesting recap with a bunch of different and previously unheard perspectives, but I'd like to see more of an opinion, and much more introspection in the future. I'll consider it a process I guess, with the sights on how good they are at remembering the lessons learned here.
Still, a nice read.
Still, a nice read.
jim-jam bongs
Member
it's a factor, sure, but it's also yet another thing which isn't exclusive to games. in Australia you can be a Holden fan or a Ford fan, never both. motoring writers have been dealing with the same crap when reviewing cars for years, that doesn't preclude them from being mature enough to face allegations of legitimate corruption.
EternalGamer
Banned
I dont completely agree. Most of them DO have knowledge of the games industry that is fairly extensive. But what makes the quote weird is that they work for an enthusiasts press; alot of their audience has that type of knowledge as well.
So it seems somewhat delusional to me to write off criticism as if the people critcizing are the uninformed masses and they are the ones with sophisticated tastes. More and more it seems to me that game enthusiasts at large are way more critical than games media are of blockbusters.
I like this.
EternalGamer
Banned
It is pretty easy to why they mostly just always respond to that argument; it is because it is so stupid, so it is easy for them to deflect and come out looking better.
Then again.. What if they are right?
Maybe the people we should be targeting all along are fucking "Day one, perfect 10, jizz my pants" fanboys who drive this whole nonsense? Is that really the largest audience segment?
If so, fuck, that is even more depressing.
Yes, I do, and I should have included that. My bad.
Tip for your swag-thing: Create a twitter account dedicated to swag-stuff and make it a private account so it cannot come up in search and stuff. People who are interested what happens to the swag can follow the account and see what's up. That way, they know exactly where the swag goes (donations, trash, and so on), can be sure that people don't take it home with them to have it hanging on their wall and everything's disclosed.
jim-jam bongs
Member
also, in my time as a tech journalist for one of the largest print publishers in Australia I copped constant allegations of bias from fanboys. one day I was a shill for Microsoft, Apple the next and some weeks I was a neck bearded love child of Richard Stallman and Linus Torvalds. you brush it off and grow the fuck up.
This is why this meme is so odd to me. Geoff is a presenter now. He does non editorial stuff like show promotions and interview panels. That's his thing now.
jim-jam bongs
Member
nah don't go down that path man. there will always be a lowest common denominator, that's no excuse for pandering to it.
Thanks man, saving this!
Keighley shotting sugar water like it's hard spirit with some promo girl at a CoD event is one for the books.
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