JakOfTheShadows
Member
To be fair a lot of young white kids in America love black culture, but strangely that doesn't stop them from being racist.
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Zwarte Piet 2012 |OT|
- Thread starter Opiate
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Arjen
Member
Bravo
No. What I'm attempting to point out is that with a larger city diversity is going to be much more apparent. NYC Chinatown is a huge cultural force in the city, Little Italy is huge. When you have multiple nationalities in large numbers you get pockets of the city that are like leaving the USA all together.
Sure you could have a town with 10 people all from different countries and it would be relatively more diverse than NYC but none of the cultures would thrive. To simply disregard absolute figures is not the way to look at it. So what if Amsterdam has 50 people from Moldova, you aren't going to see much impact on the culture of the cityscape.
The majority of our country is in favor of all the things you listed and we are moving towards them. Ya'll don't appear to want to move an inch on the black caricature.
freenudemacusers
Member
I forgot that the us is a hive mind, thanks for reminding me
Do you deny the racist origins of this tradition y/n?
Always-honest
Banned
You're right. It IS racist. And although i think almost nobody in the Netherlands (black or white) really sees this as anything offensive i also think the Dutch should start to change this tradition. There is no real reason all these characters should be black. kids wouldn't give a fuck how they look.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
You forgot about the current sutuation with no refernces towards the historicall history, which already been changed. this is only love, fun and presents.
Ow, you don't know? I thought so...
Half and half
Member
Not to mention that the U.S. has a widely supported, major political party that is openly racist.
freenudemacusers
Member
Again, the question nobody seems to want to answer directly, if we are stripping the history, why do they still wear blackface?
What does this have to do with anything? Are you equating this holiday tradition to a racist political party?
You are judging an entire nation on one picture and no real understanding of what your seeing or its cultural relevance, how is that different from what I posted about your nation?
Guess what, all our nations have racist pasts, I deny that any racist relevance exists in 2012 with regards to Pieten, yes.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
They are black because they go through the chimney...
Do you know any normal black people with the same sort of clothes as Zwarte Piet?!?
Do you know anything about Sinterklaas anno 2012?
They must have some pretty good lip balm to protect their red lips.
freenudemacusers
Member
do they wear tape over their lips and a hat of made of Brillo too?
Always-honest
Banned
Sorry, read up. That's such a lame excuse. Why not a couple of black smudges on a the face and clothes?
Ruud_Luiten
Member
Because ghry go through the fucking chimney and get black from the chimney by delivering presents to the children.
Fucking racists they are, right? The word racism gets bad taste by people not diving into current situations....
The same sort of clothes? Do you know any Dutch people that wear those clothes that aren't dressing up as Zwarte Piet?
No. Because they're dressing up as Spanish Moors.
freenudemacusers
Member
So, uh, about the red lips and afro hair
Ruud_Luiten
Member
Why do santa uses fairies and why are they white?!?
It's a fucking tale for the younger kids... Tjeez, nothing to do with racism anymore.
Half and half
Member
Not equating them. I'm just saying America is a backward ass place when it comes to acceptance. With so much blatant intolerance here, I figured Americans would be numb to something like Zwarte Piet.
Also the country where a fella got sacked because he used a word that sounded racist (niggardly)
freenudemacusers
Member
lol I got nothing
Well, we generally frown on open displays of blackface and racial caricature, so I guess we have that.
Devolution
Member
Not judging an entire nation so much as the fact that individuals want to scream to the heavens that Zwarte Piet isn't blackface despite you know the fro and the red lips.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
It's a fairytail... Why are fairies all white?
Always-honest
Banned
Ruud, that's all bullshit. Although i Agree that basicly nobody in The Netherlands sees it as racist. It's like the Zwarte Pieten are a seperate species
, like oempa loempas.i used to think like you too. But it's denying the facts.
Well, kids wouldn't mind if they were white with smudges of black from chimney work.
Sure it's not because he's a Moor?
Half and half
Member
I will read this eventually. I wanted to say that I've seen first hand how Roma were ostracized in the neighborhood I lived in in The Netherlands. I didn't like it all. But still they're overall more generous than we are in terms of human rights.
Devolution
Member
Not all fairies are white but if you're talking western lit the answer should be obvious.
freenudemacusers
Member
Call me when they wear prosthetic hook noses and dark, curly wigs and beards.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
It was racist but anno 2012 there is nothing left. It's all about fun, love and presents. I think it is racist to think all black people have one look and look like zwarte Piet.
Devolution
Member
No you are the racists. lol.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
So you saying all dark people are having prosthetichook noses and dark, curly hair?
Now that's Racist!
freenudemacusers
Member
Devolution
Member
If you weren't such a racist it wouldn't be blackface. His logic is sound.
The thing of it is is that "blackface" is not a thing here, it's mainly where things get lost in translation here, you're placing Zwarte Piet in your culture and background. We are not the US, you cannot look at your worldview and placed the entire world under it. The Netherlands is far ahead of the US as far as acceptance of differences between people goes. Wether it's race, disabilities, gender or which gender you love. Granted, the entire world has ways to go, but judging Piet while your own country still has trouble accepting even the most basic of difference from what is considered the norm.
Let's just say it comes of as the lot of you are very much on your high horse.
Cigarbeetle
Neo Member
It kindles my heart to see how shortsighted a lot of Americans on GAF really are.
It's a good read, please keep going.
It's a good read, please keep going.
Arjen
Member
You do know blackface isn't a well known thing in the Netherlands? stop projecting your own cultural values on other nations.
Devolution
Member
What high horse? It's blackface. I'm not saying US-of A is better but this cognitive dissonance on the representation of Zwarte is just ridiculous. The fact that you even bring up where my country fails, and yes we're fucking well aware of where we fail, just shows how insecure and straw-man you want this argument to be. It's blackface. I didn't call you all racists, I didn't even call the event racist, I am saying to you, that Zwarte is blackface.
What values? If it was merely soot and dirt the character wouldn't need to utilize a fro and red lips. Can you honestly pinpoint why these are utilized rather than just a dirty person?
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
I come from a country that was one of the first to have national healthcare, one of the first to legalise gay marriage, and has the most unrestrictive abortion laws in the world. I don't know how any of that qualifies my opinion, but since you seem to believe it does I'll offer it anyways:
Zwarte Piet is racist hell, and anyone who disagrees is blind.
BomberMouse
Member
I think I'll never get the problem Americans have with blackface. PC correctness here is beyond ridiculous.
freenudemacusers
Member
I'm still waiting for the Afro and red lip explanation that removes this current tradition from its racist origin.
Truly a heinous state of affairs.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
What? Zwarte Piet is black face. You guys have parades every year celeberating Zwarte Piet. By which definition is that not a well known thing?
Ruud_Luiten
Member
I like this thread, just naming and screaming racist and don't knowing anything about current situation is so fucking up the word racism.
Carry on...
Carry on...
Always-honest
Banned
The word or the depiction?
freenudemacusers
Member
Blackface costume companies are job creators
Both.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
It's not about the color of the skin...
Check it out, Piets from last year:
Kids don't care about skincolor, they care about the fun, love and presents; being good.
Stop it please. The main argument in this thread is over the character known as Zwarte Pieten and the claims of racism being made about the character by people in the youtube video posted in the OP.
Now if you don't mind, let's get back to answering the question of why so many people in this thread are so damn defensive over the suggestion of changing the face paint color for a children's holiday character that's not supposed to be black in the first place?
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