Support NeoGAF

[Big Baybee]

My entire problem with Zwarte Piet is the red lips and Afro wigs. If he truly is supposed to be a man covered in soot, change the traditionally racist imagery that the entire world recognizes except for the Dutch apparently. It would be really easy to just have smudges on his face and clothes, children would not give a fuck, and everyone knows this.

Recognizing the racist origin but refusing to change the racist depiction is fucking stupid.

 

[tirant]

As far as I see it:

- The Dutch uses black face-painted guy as a Christmas icon since decades
- Back in the US, American racists uses black face-painted guys as a means to denigrate blacks
- Regular Americans dennounce the Dutch Zwarte Piet because it reminds them to their own homegrown racists since it seem that American racist insults / parodies are now somehow a universally spoken language

Yep, totally reasonable and understanding of different cultures, no projection of your own phobias and complexes at all. It reminds me of the whole "chinese eyes" during the stupid scandal with the world cup basketball championship.

This.

Whoever sees any kind of racism in Zwarte Pete can only come from an American culture. No one in the Netherlands sees any kind of racism there. Zwarte Piet is a positive figure. Everyone loves him.

What about the Spanish Three Wise Men? Are they also Racist?

And what about this?

 

[freenudemacusers]

I can only laugh now

 

[Timedog]

My entire problem with Zwarte Piet is the red lips and Afro wigs. If he truly is supposed to be a man covered in soot, change the traditionally racist imagery that the entire world recognizes except for the Dutch apparently. It would be really easy to just have smudges on his face and clothes, children would not give a fuck, and everyone knows this.

Recognizing the racist origin but refusing to change the racist depiction is fucking stupid.

Ex-act-ly.

 

[Metrotab]

My entire problem with Zwarte Piet is the red lips and Afro wigs. If he truly is supposed to be a man covered in soot, change the traditionally racist imagery that the entire world recognizes except for the Dutch apparently. It would be really easy to just have smudges on his face and clothes, children would not give a fuck, and everyone knows this.

Recognizing the racist origin but refusing to change the racist depiction is fucking stupid.

And the perspective here is that eroding the racist origin (as has been succesfully done) is enough to neutralize the depiction, since the depiction no longer involves racial factors.

 

[OmegaDragon]

Zwarte Piet is an incredibly beloved character in the Netherlands and Belgium, he together with Sinterklaas has brought countless people joy when they were a child, including myself. It is therefore not surprising to still see people so eager to maintain the character as he is, both to maintain their childhood memories and because they wish for the children of today to have such fond memories of the celebration as well. There are of course also the general feeling that people 'outside' are trying to change something of theirs and the often mistaken belief that those 'outside' criticisms come with the implication that anyone enjoying the holiday in its current form is himself a racist or at least has conscious negative racial associations with the character.

All that said, there is nothing wrong with changing the character. Clearly there are those that are offended by the character, after all, without that we wouldn't have the video in the OP to start with, nor would it be a subject of discussion every year within the Netherlands itself. Now, you might think that the amount of people in the Netherlands who object to the character is relatively slim, and it might be, we have no way of knowing one way or the other. Regardless, does that make it right to ignore their concerns? Especially when you look at the other side of things.

None of the reasons children enjoy Zwarte Pieten so much these days; his kind character, his giving out presents and candy, his antics or any number of other things require the character to look as he does right now. Why couldn't he look different? Why couldn't the festival change with the times again? If it can't, why not now? Sinterklaas has changed at many points in history, in subtle or more overt ways. People arguing tradition should probably argue that the festival be celebrated in its original form, in which case we wouldn't be dealing with a blackface character at all..

Nice post as usual. The Sinterklaas story and also what Zwarte Piet is has been changed a lot. And I don't think the children really cared or even knew what changed. So why not subtly changed Zwarte Piet's look? If we want to keep the soot story, then just scrap the red lips and the afro wig. You can also subtly introduce Pieten with different skin colors.

 

[Htown]

And the perspective here is that eroding the racist origin (as has been succesfully done) is enough to neutralize the depiction, since the depiction no longer involves racial factors.

Utter nonsense and you know it.

 

[Metrotab]

Utter nonsense and you know it.

No, I don't know it. Please explain to me why what I said is nonsense, when in the shared cultural understanding Zwarte Pieten no longer represent black people in any form and have become a distinct idea.

 

[tirant]

The only thing I don't understand is why there's almost no real black people disguised as Zwarte Piet.

In Spain, with the three Wise Men, now it's very common to find real black people as 'Baltasar', the black wise man.

 

[Metrotab]

The only thing I don't understand is why there's almost no real black people disguised as Zwarte Piet.

In Spain, with the three Wise Men, not it's very common to find real black people as 'Baltasar', the black wise man.

Several people here in this thread have said black people disguise as Zwarte Piet too.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

god I love this gaf time of year when it's time to discuss the completely NOT RACIST tradition of zwarte piet.

 

[Raiden]

This is bullshit. Everything is racist these days and its pissing me off. It has gotten to the point where people are afraid of calling a black guy black.

 

[Steelrain]

This thread....man, this thread. Those pictures on this page....

 

[Big Baybee]

This is bullshit. Everything is racist these days and its pissing me off. It has gotten to the point where people are afraid of calling a black guy black.

Most black people prefer being called black............at least in America.

 

[Stet]

So, let's make our next discussion about the skin color of santa. Traditions are old and a thing from the past right?

Here's the funny thing about your comparison. Every year, thousands of black men dress up as Santa Claus and don't feel it necessary to paint their faces white.

Why is skin colour so important to the tradition of Piet?

 

[tirant]

Several people here in this thread have said black people disguise as Zwarte Piet too.

Nice to know. I have only live two years in the NL to experience zwarte piet.

This year I will miss Sinterklaas

Here's the funny thing about your comparison. Every year, thousands of black men dress up as Santa Claus and don't feel it necessary to paint their faces white.

Why is skin colour so important to the tradition of Piet?

Why are so important the beard and the big belly in Santa Claus? These characters have some basic characteristics. I dont think my children would be able to recognize a black Santa Claus, or a white Baltasar (Wise man). The same with Zwarte Piet.

 

[Kreed]

This.

Whoever sees any kind of racism in Zwarte Pete can only come from an American culture. No one in the Netherlands sees any kind of racism there. Zwarte Piet is a positive figure. Everyone loves him.

So all the people in the video Opiate posted are US citizens? Or in this article posted a few times in this thread?

http://www.thedailyherald.com/supplements/weekender/23102-quinsy-gario-on-zwarte-piet.html

Or on this site?

http://zwartepietisracisme.tumblr.com/

All of these people are from the US?

 

[Raiden]

Most black people prefer being called black............at least in America.

Yeah but here in Belgium its just awkward. Best thing to say is person of colour.

 

[2San]

Yeah but here in Belgium its just awkward. Best thing to say is person of colour.

I'm Dutch, but "persoon van kleur" of "kleuring" sounds pretty akward as well. Honestly the best way to refer a black man in the Netherlands is just assume that he is from the Surinames and call him "Surinamer". If you don't know the exact origin.

Getinte man/vrouw?

That seems to be the police description, but that pretty much describes everyone not white.

 

[soepje]

Getinte man/vrouw?

 

[tirant]

So all the people in the video Opiate posted are US citizens? Or in this article posted a few times in this thread?

http://www.thedailyherald.com/supplements/weekender/23102-quinsy-gario-on-zwarte-piet.html

Or on this site?

http://zwartepietisracisme.tumblr.com/

All of these people are from the US?

You can find people offended by everything in this world: Vaccines, Internet, Computers, Videogames, Carnaval, Christmas, the moon, traditional medicine. Everyone that has lived in the NL can tell you, it's not an issue there. And I don't think it is in the rest of Europe.

I cannot blame you of thinking It's racist. I have studied American culture, and I'm sure I would think the same If I had your background. That's why you should try to understand why It's not racist here.

 

[Goldrusher]

Americans would implode if they spent a month in Holland or Flanders.

Would a newspaper in the US get away with printing this?

And some for the Dutch readers:

 

[Timedog]

This is bullshit. Everything is racist these days and its pissing me off. It has gotten to the point where people are afraid of calling a black guy black.

It's pissing you off that some people are upset that a tradition with racist origins that could easily be changed (and they've already made changes) offends some people? Uh, okay. I don't know anyone that's afraid to call a black guy black (where it's appropriate to even point out their race).

 

[Metrotab]

The Flemish language union states that 'zwarte' is more neutral than 'neger'. However, the union also says 'black' is discriminatory in the States, which I don't think is true, seeing the overall attitude towards the word on NeoGAF.

So I don't know really. I think saying 'neger' in a neutral intonation is fine. And 'zwarte' has WW2 ties with collaboration.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Americans would implode if they spent a month in Holland or Flanders.

Would a newspaper in the US get away with printing this?

Don't see the big deal, it's just a black pete celebrating the (historically racist but no longer racist despite the black skin soot, red lips, and afro hair remaining unchanged) holiday tradition by putting on a fun show for the little Dutch child. I assume, though, his costume is in a bag somewhere.

 

[Goldrusher]

Quick, someone tells these black kids they shouldn't be celebrating it:

And shame on the black mayor.

 

[Kreed]

You can find people offended by everything in this world: Vaccines, Internet, Computers, Videogames, Carnaval, Christmas, the moon, traditional medicine. Everyone that has lived in the NL can tell you, it's not an issue there. And I don't think it is in the rest of Europe.

I cannot blame you of thinking It's racist. I have studied American culture, and I'm sure I would think the same If I had your background. That's why you should try to understand why It's not racist here.

I can see you haven't been following this thread at all. But I'll just point out that this issue from the article:

Shortly after my history lesson with Quinsy, I attended a formal debate on the topic. The moment that it all became real to me was when the question was asked: Who has ever been called Zwarte Piet? About sixty percent of the room lifted up their hand, the other forty percent that did not raise their hand being the white audience, including myself. My friend next to me had lifted her hand as well, telling me afterwards that twice a child had called her Zwarte Piet, and both times the parents did not correct the child. It's just a child though and he/she means well, because they like Zwarte Piet.

I realized, seeing those raised hands, that a child does make a link between Zwarte Piet, the mischievous helper, whose current depiction stems from slavery, and a person of African descent. It’s not a very positive image. Every year people that know the history must look at a reenactment of colonial slave-times being celebrated. To some it might be an innocent children’s holiday but to others it must be painful having to smile as the country cheers on Sint Nicholas and his helpers.

...has absolutely nothing to do with "American" culture.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Quick, someone tells these black kids they shouldn't be celebrating it:

And shame on the black mayor.

lol

 

[Half and half]

Quick, someone tells these black kids they shouldn't be celebrating it:

And shame on the black mayor.

What's the mayor's name? I'd like to read up on him.

 

[Htown]

Yeah, come on, guys. Zwarte Piet can't be racist, some of his best friends are black!

 

[2San]

I can see you haven't been following this thread at all. But I'll just point out that this issue from the article:



...has absolutely nothing to do with "American" culture.

It has everything to do with "American" culture. We don't make a big deal out of every little thing for one. Also the article is purposely misleading showing it's biased nature. Zwarte Pieten in it's current inception are not "mischievous" helpers nor are they slaves.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Yeah, come on, guys. Zwarte Piet can't be racist, some of his best friends are black!

But the kids are having fun, it can't be bad if kids are around!

*considers dropping family fun lynching image in thread*

 

[Steelrain]

But the kids are having fun, it can't be bad if kids are around!

*considers dropping family fun lynching image in thread*

Thermonuclear warfare.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Not racist, kids are having fun

 

[Herbspiceguy]

Quick, someone tells these black kids they shouldn't be celebrating it:

Was just going to post that in predominantly black schools/neighbourhoods Sinterklaas is celebrated. And yes even black kids/teens proudly dress up as zwarte piet.

 

[Dude Abides]

Did you guys know that black people performed in minstrel shows? Therefore not racist.

 

[Fivefold]

Not racist, kids are having fun

I remember reading somewhere that those girls started smoking pot and then realized the whole white power thing is dumb as fuck, and now they're hippies.

Marijuana literally cured their racism.

 

[tirant]

...has absolutely nothing to do with "American" culture.

Shortly after my history lesson with Quinsy, I attended a formal debate on the topic. The moment that it all became real to me was when the question was asked: Who has ever been called Zwarte Piet? About sixty percent of the room lifted up their hand, the other forty percent that did not raise their hand being the white audience, including myself. My friend next to me had lifted her hand as well, telling me afterwards that twice a child had called her Zwarte Piet, and both times the parents did not correct the child. It's just a child though and he/she means well, because they like Zwarte Piet.

I realized, seeing those raised hands, that a child does make a link between Zwarte Piet, the mischievous helper, whose current depiction stems from slavery, and a person of African descent. It’s not a very positive image. Every year people that know the history must look at a reenactment of colonial slave-times being celebrated. To some it might be an innocent children’s holiday but to others it must be painful having to smile as the country cheers on Sint Nicholas and his helpers.

Really?

First. You are assuming that Zwarte depiction comes from slavery. Which is all but confirmed.

And Second. You are also assuming that everyone that called those people zwarte piet did it with 'racist' intentions. Specially when the calls come from children. And specially when Zwarte Piet is a positive figure. They could have call them thousands of things worse If they really wanted to insult them.

You know how children think? They live in a world full of unknown events and unknown people. They look for explanations alllll the time. If you have children you will know that they can't stop asking why about everything. And when they don't have an answer or an explanation they look for one by linking new events and experiences to already known concepts.

As you know, NL is a country where black people are a minority, and it's quite common for some children to not see a black person in real life until they go to school. Which is the only black person they know and they take as a reference? Zwarte Piet. And what's wrong about it? Nothing.

 

[midonnay]

Not racist, kids are having fun

racist against chinese? >_>

 

[Goldrusher]

What's the mayor's name? I'd like to read up on him.

Franc Weerwind

 

[freenudemacusers]

Did you guys know that black people performed in minstrel shows? Therefore not racist.

They got paid too! Not even zwarte piet gets paid!

 

[tirant]

Franc Weerwind

http://media.nu.nl/m/m1fz0iha7htr.jpg

And you know? He belongs to D66!! So He is also a communist!

 

[Metrotab]

Did you guys know that black people performed in minstrel shows? Therefore not racist.

Minstrel shows were all about making fun of black people.
Modern Zwarte Piet isn't.

Key difference.

 

[PdotMichael]

My entire problem with Zwarte Piet is the red lips and Afro wigs. If he truly is supposed to be a man covered in soot, change the traditionally racist imagery that the entire world recognizes except for the Dutch apparently. It would be really easy to just have smudges on his face and clothes, children would not give a fuck, and everyone knows this.

Recognizing the racist origin but refusing to change the racist depiction is fucking stupid.

I'm from the non-dutch world and I don't see it.

 

[Dude Abides]

Minstrel shows were all about making fun of black people.
Modern Zwarte Piet isn't.

Key difference.

They were lighthearted fun. Stop being so PC.

 

[Kreed]

Yeah, come on, guys. Zwarte Piet can't be racist, some of his best friends are black!

This is really getting more pathetic as the topic goes on. I just want to see ONE person defend this character in a logical manner without trying to brush these opinions off using "discrimination 101" tactics.

We could be having a discussion about women in countries where their skin isn't allowed to be exposed and we would probably see the same cries of "You aren't from our country/the women here like it/your country is flawed/don't push your beliefs on us" etc....

It has everything to do with "American" culture. We don't make a big deal out of every little thing for one.

So all the black people complaining within your own country are US citizens? Can you back that up with proof/something other than generalizations about US Citizens?

Also the article is purposely misleading showing it's biased nature. Zwarte Pieten in it's current inception are not "mischievous" helpers nor are they slaves.

Really?

First. You are assuming that Zwarte depiction comes from slavery. Which is all but confirmed.

This was already brought up by itsgreen on page 6/13, among others. The issue is people of African decent/black in the countries Zwarte Piet is celebrated in being confused with Zwarte Pieten by random children, not Zwart Piet's constantly changing origins.

And Second. You are also assuming that everyone that called those people zwarte piet did it with 'racist' intentions. Specially when the calls come from children. And specially when Zwarte Piet is a positive figure. They could have call them thousands of things worse If they really wanted to insult them.

You know how children think? They live in a world full of unknown events and unknown people. They look for explanations alllll the time. If you have children you will know that they can't stop asking why about everything. And when they don't have an answer or an explanation they look for one by linking new events and experiences to already known concepts.

As you know, NL is a country where black people are a minority, and it's quite common for some children to not see a black person in real life until they go to school. Which is the only black person they know and they take as a reference? Zwarte Piet. And what's wrong about it? Nothing.

And this was also covered by itsgreen on page 3/7. I understand the children are calling them a "now" positive figure/who's origins have been changed to be more positive/not discriminatory. The problem is children shouldn't be confusing an entire ethnic group with a character that isn't supposed to be black anymore/vs a man covered in soot. All I'm trying to figure out in this thread since page 3/6 is why you "defenders" are so opposed to changing a couple of colors of Zwarte Pieten so that children won't be confused anymore (green lips/bright red hair/or purple skin for example) other than just not wanting to change your traditions? Not one person has given me a good reason for this refusal towards a simple color swap that would solve this whole issue.

 

[Goldrusher]

Anyway, some fun facts from Antwerp.
The Sint had 53 Pieten, who handed out:

- 30 000 speculoos cookies
- 5 000 mandarine oranges
- 5 000 chocolate figures
- 5 000 balloons
- 7 000 wool hats

 

[Metrotab]

And this was also covered by itsgreen on page 3/7. I understand the children are calling them a "now" positive figure/who's origins have been changed to be more positive/not discriminatory. The problem is children shouldn't be confusing an entire ethnic group with a character that isn't supposed to be black anymore/vs a man covered in soot. All I'm trying to figure out in this thread since page 3/6 is why you "defenders" are so opposed to changing a couple of colors of Zwarte Pieten so that children won't be confused anymore (green lips/bright red hair/or purple skin for example) other than just not wanting to change your traditions? Not one person has given me a good reason for this refusal towards a simple color swap that would solve this whole issue.

Because Flemish/Dutch society at large does not consider it an issue to the point there's political will for it to change, or even any debate. There's absolutely no momentum, not even among ultra-progressive left-wing politicians.

Opposed to that is the momentum to keep it as it is, since it's considered a cherished element of our local folklore which we all grew up with. And people don't wanna change it for 'overzealous political correctness', especially if it's because of external pressure.

 

[Metrotab]

They were lighthearted fun. Stop being so PC.

Light-hearted fun, at expense of a disenfranchised group of people with less-than-equal legal stature. Minstrel shows are very understandably offensive.

Modern Zwarte Piet is in no way comparable.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Light-hearted fun, at expense of a disenfranchised group of people with less-than-equal legal stature. Minstrel shows are very understandably offensive.

Modern Zwarte Piet is in no way comparable.

You just need to view the minstrel shows in a cultural context.