IrishNinja
Member
i don't know what's worse for me, accessible souls or elder scrolls souls...i don't want either though, bad writeup
wait changing director? aww maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan
wait changing director? aww maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan
Edge 249: Dark Souls II. To be more "direct," "straightforward," and "understandable"
- Thread starter Visualante2
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sublimit
Banned
I would love to see him working on a new IP.
Augemitbutter
Member
accessibility worked well for Ninja Gaiden 3, will work for Dark Souls II as well.
So much whining here ahhh. Dark Souls is already more accessible, to an extent, than Demon's. I think people need to stop assuming how 'easy' or 'accessible' they will make it and wait for them to show the changes themselves. There are parts of the game that are just annoying and not difficult. Removing those would make it more accessible and fine by me.
The games still have a ton to offer in single player and not to mention the hundreds of hours that tons of people spend PvPing. There's more to these games than just difficulty.
The games still have a ton to offer in single player and not to mention the hundreds of hours that tons of people spend PvPing. There's more to these games than just difficulty.
I think, [Dark Souls II] will be more straightforward and more understandable, is what people are more worried about.
one of the best trailers ever IMO.
Jesus, you guys are ridiculous.
Just because someone throws out the word accessibility (which isn't inherently bad) you immediately assume the worst. Heaven forbid they actually explain game mechanics or add a easy mode (which doesn't affect you in any way shape or form). What a stubborn lot.
They have a group of hardcore fans and I doubt they'll betray them.
Just because someone throws out the word accessibility (which isn't inherently bad) you immediately assume the worst. Heaven forbid they actually explain game mechanics or add a easy mode (which doesn't affect you in any way shape or form). What a stubborn lot.
They have a group of hardcore fans and I doubt they'll betray them.
IrishNinja
Member
also, Skyrim stuff is a very unwelcome analogy - yes, i gather why Namco'd like to see those sales; no, i don't care as a consumer and would be most upset to see this series go in that direction.
it's about a bit more than just that word.
The original links are these:
Original article, with Myiazaki original translated answer.
http://metro.co.uk/2012/08/29/dark-souls-interview-hard-master-556118/
And the comments on the "mistranslation" that was more of a backtrack due to the foaming outrage that that sentence from the creator elicited through the internet.
http://metro.co.uk/2012/09/05/miyazaki-backtracks-over-dark-souls-difficultly-level-566203/
I wonder if that reaction from the player base isn't behind the decision to put Miyazaki in a Producer overseeing role to protect him if this sequel really turns sour to the Souls games enthusiast audience. That way From can easily discard DS 2 directors for a more in the shadow role and Miyazaki returns to please the masses in future games. So it is not Namco that talked about having a difficulty setting on Souls games, in fact it was Namco that tried to quickly "clarify/backtrack" what Miyazaki told in the original article that was supposedly mistranslated.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Yea honestly this has me concerned...
And the accessibility factor as well. But I won't jump to conclusions right now. I'm surprised how soon its been announced, though maybe I shouldn't be.
H_Prestige
Banned
He is supervising this game.
Rygar 8 Bit
Jaguar 64-bit
you get me super hyped then drop this shit on me? fuck off
They shouldn't have to worry. If it's great it's great. Just let them get on with it.
"An eternal battle rages at the heart of Dark Souls II. On one side stands the stern force of challenge, the very soul of the Souls series. It has inspired thousands of fans to hack their way through two of the most demanding and rewarding games of an era, fans who expect at least the same test on the next go around. On the other side is the bright promise of accessibility. And why not? Why shouldn’t FromSoftware and Namco Bandai open Souls up to a wider audience when it could otherwise be in danger of becoming stuck in a cult cul-de-sac?
There are many, after all, who have been put off by the series’ habit of obscuring its best assets from all but the most committed. Entire systems, such as Dark Souls’ covenants and Demon’s Souls’ World Tendency, remain mysteries to even reasonably experienced players – wouldn’t it be a service to the games to help everyone understand them better? On the other hand, isn’t the very nature of the Souls series about obfuscation and what it makes you work for? Aren’t its greatest pleasures about the slow crawl of discovery in a world that refuses easy interpretation? What would the series lose if it was made more explicit?
As we find out in issue 249, the answers to these questions are in the hands of game directors new to the Souls series, Tomohiro Shibuya and Yui Tanimura, who have taken the reins from Hidetaka Miyazaki. Their descriptions of how they intend to mould Dark Souls II into a more approachable form seem reasonable. But Shibuya admits that their approach will be influenced by their individual characters. “I personally am the sort of person who likes to be more direct than subtle,” he tells us. “[Dark Souls II] will be more straightforward and more understandable.” We sympathise if that sort of statement concerns you, but at the same time, we can surely agree that we would all like to see Dark Souls attain as great a presence as The Elder Scrolls. How it gets there is a worthy matter for debate, but it’s certainly a noble task."
This view on the difficulty of Dark Souls bothers me. There aren't many games like Dark Souls, or ANY, really.
Most modern games on console are very mediocre, very generic, very easy. There are so many games for people to choose from.
Yet, for some reason, people want to lower the difficulty of Dark Souls?
Why not pick up another game?
Or, why not read up on the game, watch a few tutorials, and try again?
Why not respect that the "difficulty" is a big part of what makes Dark Souls so enjoyable? It's one of the most important aspects of the game (In making it what it is.), actually.
Dark Souls is a perfect example of what gaming is all about. The reward is in the challenge.
Hopefully the developers can maintain the aspects that make DS so enjoyable, though. But I doubt it'd be the same type of game.
I think Hidetaka Miyazaki talked about trying to appeal to casual players with Dark Souls, or implied it.. Or?
There are many, after all, who have been put off by the series’ habit of obscuring its best assets from all but the most committed. Entire systems, such as Dark Souls’ covenants and Demon’s Souls’ World Tendency, remain mysteries to even reasonably experienced players – wouldn’t it be a service to the games to help everyone understand them better? On the other hand, isn’t the very nature of the Souls series about obfuscation and what it makes you work for? Aren’t its greatest pleasures about the slow crawl of discovery in a world that refuses easy interpretation? What would the series lose if it was made more explicit?
As we find out in issue 249, the answers to these questions are in the hands of game directors new to the Souls series, Tomohiro Shibuya and Yui Tanimura, who have taken the reins from Hidetaka Miyazaki. Their descriptions of how they intend to mould Dark Souls II into a more approachable form seem reasonable. But Shibuya admits that their approach will be influenced by their individual characters. “I personally am the sort of person who likes to be more direct than subtle,” he tells us. “[Dark Souls II] will be more straightforward and more understandable.” We sympathise if that sort of statement concerns you, but at the same time, we can surely agree that we would all like to see Dark Souls attain as great a presence as The Elder Scrolls. How it gets there is a worthy matter for debate, but it’s certainly a noble task."
This view on the difficulty of Dark Souls bothers me. There aren't many games like Dark Souls, or ANY, really.
Most modern games on console are very mediocre, very generic, very easy. There are so many games for people to choose from.
Yet, for some reason, people want to lower the difficulty of Dark Souls?
Why not pick up another game?
Or, why not read up on the game, watch a few tutorials, and try again?
Why not respect that the "difficulty" is a big part of what makes Dark Souls so enjoyable? It's one of the most important aspects of the game (In making it what it is.), actually.
Dark Souls is a perfect example of what gaming is all about. The reward is in the challenge.
Hopefully the developers can maintain the aspects that make DS so enjoyable, though. But I doubt it'd be the same type of game.
I think Hidetaka Miyazaki talked about trying to appeal to casual players with Dark Souls, or implied it.. Or?
Tylahedras
Banned
Fuck.
Look, the mystery and the danger are mixed with the art to create the game's appeal. They are integral. If you try to make the game more easily understood you fuck with the mystery, if you try to make it easier to not die you fuck with the danger.
At least the art still looks fucking amazing.
Look, the mystery and the danger are mixed with the art to create the game's appeal. They are integral. If you try to make the game more easily understood you fuck with the mystery, if you try to make it easier to not die you fuck with the danger.
At least the art still looks fucking amazing.
Phat Michael
Banned
god this thread is funny. I love the overreactions. all they said is accessable and understandable and people think its going to be a straight up cake walk.
id love more of a story and mechanics which are more understandable.
I guess people dont want change, yet if it was more of the same everyone would complain.
cant wait, the game is going to be fantastic.
id love more of a story and mechanics which are more understandable.
I guess people dont want change, yet if it was more of the same everyone would complain.
cant wait, the game is going to be fantastic.
Baloonatic
Member
Worrying. I'd hate for them to add loads of cutscenes, quest markers and forced tutorials.
I am a bit worried by what i read about Dark souls 2...
Imho, It worked because it's not accessible. To make it accessible may result in betraying what made the game so great in the first place.
It's a bit depressing that a company who built up a complete new experience does not go on in the same concept and instead tries to follow the big franchises.
Moreover, when he speaks about Skyrim, he does not say what Bethesda does better than DS, what they can learn from them... he basically says: "They sell more...so we have to follow them".
I can understand that a company needs to sell as much as they can... but I am definitly worried that accessibility may kill the franchise.
Imho, It worked because it's not accessible. To make it accessible may result in betraying what made the game so great in the first place.
It's a bit depressing that a company who built up a complete new experience does not go on in the same concept and instead tries to follow the big franchises.
Moreover, when he speaks about Skyrim, he does not say what Bethesda does better than DS, what they can learn from them... he basically says: "They sell more...so we have to follow them".
I can understand that a company needs to sell as much as they can... but I am definitly worried that accessibility may kill the franchise.
Imp the Dimp
Member
I have yet to play a sequel where accebility actually was an improvement. Oblivion is probably the worst offender.
Ingueferroque
Banned
But more transparent mechanics and a more obvious storytelling experience is exactly what Dark Souls doesn't need, we have games like Skyrim for that. I hope Dark Souls 2 goes further into its own niche to keep the experience unique.
Thank god this game isn't outsourced though.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
I hate to say this, but I may bite if true.
Ingueferroque
Banned
Part of why Demon's and Dark appealed to me because it is one of the few modern games that still have a sense of mystery to it. The more time and energy I put into it, the more I get out of it. And at the same time it doesn't feel like reaching the end is something inevitable, but a real reward that will give me a real sense of accomplishment.
Fans of Demon/Dark Souls have every reason to worry. Words and terms thrown out by publishers and developers like "accessibility", "expanding the audience", "We want___ audience" and "We want hardcore gamers and new fans to enjoy it" are well known code words for casualization and dumbing down in this day and age. And the fact that the dev team are look at TES (Skyrim in particular, probably) as something to aspire to only worsen fears.
Lumination
'enry 'ollins
What scares me most is the changing of directors. Why did that happen? If they wanted to make it more accessible, (that one thing no one on gaf wants unless it's Dark Souls apparently) I would've trusted the vision of the man who helmed the first two.
demosthenes
Member
I'm almost positive that they used the word 'accessible' when talking about Dark Souls and it freaked everyone the fuck out. People need to calm down, jesus.
H_Prestige
Banned
By what definition are Demon's/Dark Souls "cult"? They both sold over a million. They are both critically adored. They both get tons of press.
When I think of cult, I think of some of those bizarre japanese otaku games that only like ten people play.
When I think of cult, I think of some of those bizarre japanese otaku games that only like ten people play.
BobTheFork
Member
It's relative. Demon's souls was far more accessible IMO. It was hard as balls but they always pointed the player in the right direction and the rest was on the player. Dark Souls added systems they didn't explain, they hid NPC's and important shop keepers that sold basic items and left you to wander without knowing where to go. The hub system made the difference and they can adjust DS2 to be more guided without hurting the combat or difficulty.
Ingueferroque
Banned
People who say this probably have not played Dark Souls, or enjoyed it when they did. It's really understandable.. Dark Souls is one of the last bastions of gaming where we aren't forced to sit through scripted sequences, cutscenes, QTE's, and aren't shown button prompts everywhere we go.
It is basically the antithesis of the Bioshock Infinite footage shown yesterday.
Since Dark Souls was so unique (and critically well-received for what made it unique), it would be nearsighted not to focus on that with the marketing and approach for the sequel. Being more like other games is not something that will directly benefit in an increase of sales if you ask me.
demosthenes
Member
Played through Dark Souls 3 times and loved every second of it. Thanks though.
H_Prestige
Banned
Dark Souls added accessibility through seamless world, bonfires, and estus flask. There was quite a bit of pointless tedium in Demon's that needed to be addressed.
Problem is, I don't think there is any tedium left in the series that needs to be addressed. After the new patch, there's hardly any walking to do either since you can warp practically anywhere.
Ghost_Protocol
Member
I can't believe that after everything we've seen and done and know about the people who make the Souls' games, that anyone would be worried about them ruining the experience in the slightest. It's ridiculous.
It's obvious that what they mean by "more accessible" is that they'll actually explain what things like world tendency and kindling are from the get-go, so we don't have to fumble through and figure it out on our own. Is that really what we love about the series? Being clueless about fundamental game mechanics?
Additionally, the crestfallen knight in the firelink shrine clearly explained that adventurers should go up through the waterway to the undead parish first, but tons of people decided to ignore that, go to the graveyard, die by the skeletons repeatedly, say the game is too hard, and quit. If they decide now to say, 'Hey motherfucker, go the fuck upstairs first if you want to live!" I'm fine with that. Things like that shouldn't be cause for concern.
Also, I want more lore/story.
It's obvious that what they mean by "more accessible" is that they'll actually explain what things like world tendency and kindling are from the get-go, so we don't have to fumble through and figure it out on our own. Is that really what we love about the series? Being clueless about fundamental game mechanics?
Additionally, the crestfallen knight in the firelink shrine clearly explained that adventurers should go up through the waterway to the undead parish first, but tons of people decided to ignore that, go to the graveyard, die by the skeletons repeatedly, say the game is too hard, and quit. If they decide now to say, 'Hey motherfucker, go the fuck upstairs first if you want to live!" I'm fine with that. Things like that shouldn't be cause for concern.
Also, I want more lore/story.
teh_J0kerer
Member
Im confused. A lot of people in this thread seem scared by the Elder Scrolls reference.. but that was in a sentence written by the author of the article.. not something said by a person working on DS2. That isnt an indication of anything.
H_Prestige
Banned
I do like the sense of mystery. The sense that no matter how much you think you know, there are things hidden in the depths that you don't know, and perhaps never will.
I only just recently found out BP mobs only spawn on NG+. That's not something the game tells you. I doesn't even tell you what BP mobs are or anything about gravelording. You just discover as you play.
jimmypython
Member
people play dark souls for it's being dark souls, not Skyrim......
Yeah, because the people getting worried about one word in this thread aren't jaded and cynical at all.
Oh lol.
I thought these guys were all about making games "they" enjoyed. They said so in a documentary, and their recent game history seems to back it up; Armored Core, Demons Souls, Dark Souls, etc.
Those were risky games to develop and publish -- why are they changing directions now?
Dark Souls obviously deserved far more sales than it got, but trying to change the audience, or widen the appeal-parameters (IE; Make it more generic.) in the middle of the series like this is not a good idea in my opinion.
Dark Souls was huge. A sequel on the same difficulty level should atleast sell 10% more than Dark Souls did. And since it warranted a sequel, those must be worthy numbers.
If they keep the difficulty level of Dark Souls, and simply add an easy mode option (Ie Reduce mob HP by 50%, increase your health by 200% and damage by 50%, easy to make money and so on.) that can only be chosen once when you start the game, then nobody should have any issues regarding the difficulty of the game, right?
Yeah, I think I remember that they talked about things like that, or at the very least heavily implied it on numerous occasions. They spoke/implied about trying to reach more audiences, making the game easier and so forth I think. So, maybe it's just part of the process/talk.
It doesn't need to be dumbed down, but it needs to not have dumb mechanics to make the game hard just to be hard. I'm guessing they want to make more accessible to increase sells.
I'm more bothered by this "EVERYTHING MUST BE WOW/COD/SKYRIM" mentality that seems to be permeating from this industry as of late, like there is an albatross around one's neck for attempting differentiality at times. I know it's more imperative now than ever to break into those audiences for higher sales (often to sustain higher budget costs), but damn am I cranky about it.
opticalmace
Member
Pretty decent score for PSABR.
Zeouterlimits
Member
I'm going to wait and see.
Dark Souls didn't disappoint, so I'll wait until we see some previews next year.
I'll probably pick up the magazine to read it though.
Dark Souls didn't disappoint, so I'll wait until we see some previews next year.
I'll probably pick up the magazine to read it though.
EatinOlives
Member
To a degree, yes. One of the greatest things about the game is the constant feeling of having to explore a highly hostile land that well and truly feels dangerous and foreign. The game, and by extension the world, being complex and obfuscated contributes wonderfully to this mood, because it transfers the feeling of the unknown directly to the player.
This is one of the subtle things that so many other developers completely fail to grasp. They think they're "being helpful" by explaining everything, hence shitty GPS systems with 10,000 icons that explain everything and ruin all sense of discovery, fast travel that kills level design for the sake of instant gratification, and ham-fisted stories shoved in your face because they really want every single person to understand it.
Of course, I'm in no way implying that Dark Souls II is going to have shitty GPS/tutorials/story because this blurb said it was going to be accessible, but it suffices to say the lack of accessibility is actually a good thing in the game, because it works wonderfully in contributing to the overall feeling of venturing into a deep unkown that both your character and you have to actively work toward understanding.
Sentenza
Member
Wonderfully put.