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[Joel Was Right]

It was borrowed charm and technique that was done with more sincerity by Donner and Reeves. Any director that admits to adding a super baby element to a Superman movie because he was trying to attract the 'Devil Wears Prada crowd' is making a movie destined for failure.

There was nothing wrong with the love story -- in fact I thought it was actually a sharp contrast to the idealism of the character himself -- but the forgettable narrative between Luthor and Superman meant that the love triangle inadvertently became the most recognisable aspect of the film.

Dougherty and Harris may not have brought us a great Superman movie, but they absolutely nailed Clark Kent; his conflict, and to me as a fan that is just as important as getting chills at the back of my spine seeing Superman in the air with his cape flapping.

My man.

Spectacular. I even remember the score that played for these scenes. I also liked the scene where we have a close up shot of him pulling out the boat from the water; everything is submerged at first, and bit by bit, his face emerges, then his shoulders and as the camera zooms out you begin to see the silhouette of this structure emerging from the water. These aren't necessarily action shots, but fuck me, they were mythic

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

Spectacular. I even remember the score that played for these scenes. I also liked the scene where we have a close up shot of him pulling out the boat from the water; everything is under water at first, and bit by bit, his face submerges, then his shoulders and as the camera zooms out you begin to see the silhouette of this structure emerging from the water. These aren't necessarily action shots, but fuck me, they were mythic

If it was anywhere on youtube I would gif the FUCK out of the car flight/Supes setting down the car. Magical stuff.

It's a shame when a flawed movie with as many beautiful moments as Returns gets absolutely shitted on while movies like The Avengers are praised to high heaven.

 

[Joel Was Right]

If it was anywhere on youtube I would gif the FUCK out of the car flight/Supes setting down the car. Magical stuff.

It's a shame when a flawed movie with as many beautiful moments as Returns gets absolutely shitted on while movies like The Avengers are praised to high heaven.

With Man of Steel, you'll get Kryptonians fighting each other = meaning sound effects accompany the flight of fists and bodies being thrown several feet. Maybe some slow mo if we're lucky. Fans have been starved of scenes like that in these movies.

 

[Reiko]

If it was anywhere on youtube I would gif the FUCK out of the car flight/Supes setting down the car. Magical stuff.

It's a shame when a flawed movie with as many beautiful moments as Returns gets absolutely shitted on while movies like The Avengers are praised to high heaven.

I loved the shots Sculli... But all that shit was wasted for a real Superman challenge in a movie.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

9,339,680 views... Already? WTF?

That's like a million views in the past 2 hours or so.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

With Man of Steel, you'll get Kryptonians fighting each other = meaning sound effects accompany the flight of fists and bodies being thrown several feet. Maybe some slow mo if we're lucky. Fans have been starved of scenes like that in these movies.

Hey now, I'm still really positive about Man of Steel. I just don't feel like Returns ought to be shit on since it's also a pretty damn good superhero flick.

I'm still on board the Man of Steel train.

 

[zoukka]

It's a shame when a flawed movie with as many beautiful moments as Returns gets absolutely shitted on while movies like The Avengers are praised to high heaven.

That's because it wasn't fun. And there is no depth to remedy that. And Superman is a character that is the ultimate bore if not done right.

At least Avengers was full of cheese. It was like a condensed superhero flick. I didn't like any of the movies featuring the single avengers, but as a team they had enough stuff to keep me awake through it all.

 

[Discotheque]

With Man of Steel, you'll get Kryptonians fighting each other = meaning sound effects accompany the flight of fists and bodies being thrown several feet. Maybe some slow mo if we're lucky. Fans have been starved of scenes like that in these movies.

You have a point here. The last time people got this "throw a punch" bullshit we got that dogshit movie The Incredible Hulk.

Who's to say this won't be a repeat of the same thing. And also Ang Lee's Hulk is a good film. It could have done without that dog scene though lol.

edit: to be fair this has had much better promotional material than the Norton Hulk movie though

 

[Joel Was Right]

The thread on Catwoman's costume reveal had more views than the original Man of Steel thread in its entirety so I wouldn't get too excited about the view count of the trailer. I still think Superman is the bigger character than Batman, though and I hope it smashes the BO

 

[Reiko]

The thread on Catwoman's costume reveal had more views than the original Man of Steel thread in its entirety so I wouldn't get too excited about the view count of the trailer. I still think Superman is the bigger character than Batman, though and I hope it smashes the BO

I was talking about the Youtube views. It skyrocketed.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

There was nothing wrong with the love story -- in fact I thought it was actually a sharp contrast to the idealism of the character himself -- but the forgettable narrative between Luthor and Superman meant that the love triangle inadvertently became the most recognisable aspect of the film.

Dougherty and Harris may not have brought us a great Superman movie, but they absolutely nailed Clark Kent; his conflict, and to me as a fan that is just as important as getting chills at the back of my spine seeing Superman in the air with his cape flapping.

Not sure if we saw the same movie. Superman stalks her to her house and invades her privacy using his 'see through walls' power. He has sex with her, impregnates her as Superman and leaves her for a few years, only to return to act bumbling and awkward with her as Clark. He flies her around town and flirts with her knowing well and good that she's with another dude.

Their relationship made no fucking sense. At all.

 

[Angry Fork]

I can't be bored by Returns, don't know how people lodge that complaint against it. There's a lot of weak/stupid shit in it for sure that I wish wasn't but the direction and music carry it so far for me. I have it on blu ray and watch it every once in a while and it just has wondrous romantic superman feel. I get goosebumps by so many scenes. I hope Man of Steel has that as well as the raw action Returns was missing.

If only Nolan's name was attached to the script I'd have some more faith but Goyer for the screenplay... how are you guys not worried. Goyer will either achieve a miracle by writing something good on his own in the 20+ years he's been in the business, or the characters/dialogue will be terrible and everyone will still praise it because Nolan's name is on it and flashy visuals.

Hopefully Snyder doesn't ruin key emotional scenes by putting in 70s funk or 99 red balloons where it shouldn't be.

Not sure if we saw the same movie. Superman stalks her to her house and invades her privacy using his 'see through walls' power. He has sex with her, impregnates her as Superman and leaves her for a few years, only to return to act bumbling and awkward with her as Clark. He flies her around town and flirts with her knowing well and good that she's with another dude.

Their relationship made no fucking sense. At all.

This stalker complaint is so incredibly weak. He does it once when he hears arguing with her husband because he's curious if she still has feelings for him. Who WOULDN'T do something like this if they were Superman and was/still is in love with someone. It's not like he watched her undress.

People just throw around 'stalker' and 'emo' with Returns because they didn't like it/thought it was stupid/boring etc. and it's easy to use certain trigger words to dismiss something and then it catches on and everyone starts using it.

 

[Discotheque]

I think Superman Returns has a dumb ass story and isn't a very good film. But it is shot very well and has some bright spots in it.

Still think John Carter is the best Superman film since the first one.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

This stalker complaint is so incredibly weak. He does it once when he hears arguing with her husband because he's curious if she still has feelings for him. Who WOULDN'T do something like this if they were Superman and was/still is in love with someone. It's not like he watched her undress.

Because it's incredibly out of character.

But let's establish something else about this movie - it doesn't give us a reason to believe their romance. Why in the world does Clark like Lois? It so shamelessly relies on the previous movies that it doesn't even bother establishing any kind of rapport between them in the film. It's just lazy.

 

[Reiko]

I can't be bored by Returns, don't know how people lodge that complaint against it. There's a lot of weak/stupid shit in it for sure that I wish wasn't but the direction and music carry it so far for me. I have it on blu ray and watch it every once in a while and it just has wondrous romantic superman feel. I get goosebumps by so many scenes. I hope Man of Steel has that as well as the raw action Returns was missing.

If only Nolan's name was attached to the script I'd have some more faith but Goyer for the screenplay... how are you guys not worried. Goyer will either achieve a miracle by writing something good on his own in the 20+ years he's been in the business, or the characters/dialogue will be terrible and everyone will still praise it because Nolan's name is on it and flashy visuals.

Hopefully Snyder doesn't ruin key emotional scenes by putting in 70s funk or 99 red balloons where it shouldn't be.



This stalker complaint is so incredibly weak. He does it once when he hears arguing with her husband because he's curious if she still has feelings for him. Who WOULDN'T do something like this if they were Superman and was/still is in love with someone. It's not like he watched her undress.

People just throw around 'stalker' and 'emo' with Returns because they didn't like it/thought it was stupid/boring etc. and it's easy to use certain trigger words to dismiss something and then it catches on and everyone starts using it.

Nolan will shut the movie down. He wouldn't stamp his name on shit.

 

[zoukka]

This stalker complaint is so incredibly weak. He does it once when he hears arguing with her husband because he's curious if she still has feelings for him. Who WOULDN'T do something like this if they were Superman and was/still is in love with someone. It's not like he watched her undress.

If you are defending Superman for just being "human", then you know for a fact that he's been looking at every single woman with the x-ray vision.

 

[strafer]

Is it next year yet?

 

[Angry Fork]

Because it's incredibly out of character.

But let's establish something else about this movie - it doesn't give us a reason to believe their romance. Why in the world does Clark like Lois? It so shamelessly relies on the previous movies that it doesn't even bother establishing any kind of rapport between them in the film. It's just lazy.

Because it assumes everyone knows their history. It isn't a full fledged reboot, I think it should have been but oh well.

Lois actress was terrible as Lois though and completely unlikable which hurt how people felt about them as well.

If you are defending Superman for just being "human", then you know for a fact that he's been looking at every single woman with the x-ray vision.

He probably is but the movie doesn't show that so there's little/no basis in labeling him as a creepy stalker if there's no evidence for it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same people judging him for looking through a kitchen wall would applaud him if he looked through women's clothes.

 

[zoukka]

He probably is but the movie doesn't show that so there's little/no basis in labeling him as a creepy stalker if there's no evidence for it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same people judging him for looking through a kitchen wall would applaud him if he looked through women's clothes.

Yeah him looking at her was just a thing that had to be in the movie. It's so natural and human. Everyone can relate to that.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Not sure if we saw the same movie. Superman stalks her to her house and invades her privacy using his 'see through walls' power. He has sex with her, impregnates her as Superman and leaves her for a few years, only to return to act bumbling and awkward with her as Clark. He flies her around town and flirts with her knowing well and good that she's with another dude.

Their relationship made no fucking sense. At all.

I stopped reading here

 

[Angry Fork]

Yeah him looking at her was just a thing that had to be in the movie. It's so natural and human. Everyone can relate to that.

It wasn't necessary but it doesn't break the movie or make it terrible. There are story issues but that scene isn't one of them imo and yet almost every drive by insult to Returns refers to a stalker or emo scene. He 'stalks' once and flies on his own 'emo-like' maybe once or twice for a combined 30 seconds? And then goes back to saving people or talking to characters, it's nonsense.

Problems with Returns were
1. No physically domineering villain to fight with
2. The stretching of Superman's capabilities to unbelievable lengths with Krypton mountain.
3. Luther was too comical and clumsy instead of proper diabolical/evil.
4. The use of his other abilities felt like scenes that were just there to check boxes. Use laser eyes to disintegrate falling debris -check, use ice breath to stop fire immediately after - check, etc. I'm not sure how else you'd do this kind of thing but it didn't feel organic.
5. Horribly miscast Lois.
6. Love child was weird/unnecessary.
7. Not a full reboot so instead of building character relationships and connections with the audience they're forced to assume things. This is alright for comic fans but normal people are left wondering why they should care about anyone in the movie.

Some other stuff I can't think of right now. Stalker/emo has no place though.

The reason these movies want you to sympathize with Superman is because shit like Avengers is stupid when there's no character development. People loved that movie but I do not get it at all, it's so fucking boring to me I watched it once and know I can't watch it again without wanting to skip straight to the Hulk bits. Everything is meaningless and pure eye candy. Superman deserves the Bruce Wayne treatment from Nolan trilogy although I know he won't get it because Goyer/Snyder.

 

[zoukka]

Well I don't have any relationship with the character so I just want a good action movie (because let's face, it that's the best thing we could possibly get out of this or any other superhero flick). The character is quite dull in my opinion. He's basically the space Jesus with puberty problems.

And for the record I did not think Avengers was a good movie by any means. The final fight against the aliens was yawn-inducing.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

My man.

Still the best looking super hero movie out there.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

The reason these movies want you to sympathize with Superman is because shit like Avengers is stupid when there's no character development. People loved that movie but I do not get it at all, it's so fucking boring to me I watched it once and know I can't watch it again without wanting to skip straight to the Hulk bits. Everything is meaningless and pure eye candy. Superman deserves the Bruce Wayne treatment from Nolan trilogy although I know he won't get it because Goyer/Snyder.

Here's the thing though. Man of Steel has been written by Nolan and Goyer. The exact same team up that was responsible for writing Batman Begins. I'm guessing Nolan approached Snyder because he presumably believed that Snyder would adapt their work well. If you want a superman that deserves the Wayne treatment, this is pretty much as close as it you can get.

It wasn't necessary but it doesn't break the movie or make it terrible. There are story issues but that scene isn't one of them imo and yet almost every drive by insult to Returns refers to a stalker or emo scene. He 'stalks' once and flies on his own 'emo-like' maybe once or twice for a combined 30 seconds? And then goes back to saving people or talking to characters, it's nonsense.

Problems with Returns were
1. No physically domineering villain to fight with
2. The stretching of Superman's capabilities to unbelievable lengths with Krypton mountain.
3. Luther was too comical and clumsy instead of proper diabolical/evil.
4. The use of his other abilities felt like scenes that were just there to check boxes. Use laser eyes to disintegrate falling debris -check, use ice breath to stop fire immediately after - check, etc. I'm not sure how else you'd do this kind of thing but it didn't feel organic.
5. Horribly miscast Lois.
6. Love child was weird/unnecessary.
7. Not a full reboot so instead of building character relationships and connections with the audience they're forced to assume things. This is alright for comic fans but normal people are left wondering why they should care about anyone in the movie.

These are some great points.

 

[jett]

I really don't like the use of color in Returns. It just looks strange to me.

 

[RoninChaos]

First time seeing the trailer just now.

What is up with them changing Pa Kent's character? He's a pessimist and tells Clark maybe he shouldn't have saved those people? And that quote at the end?

The fuck? This isn't Superman.

Yeah... That bothered me. I'm guessing they're going to have him spend half the movie doubting himself and being a loner.

 

[RoninChaos]

We're not gonna hear any of the classic John Williams music either, are we?

 

[strafer]

I'm not a hero.

 

[Joel Was Right]

This is particularly true when it comes to demigod-like figures such as Superman and Hulk. A good example of this is Jason Bourne using a rolled up newspaper to produce a more thrilling and memorable fight scene than the mass destruction of concrete super strength offers. The Incredible Hulk and Avengers both did this, but I cant point to any memorable fight scene in either.

Whilst I do want Superman to demonstrate his strength and power, I'm not sure how you achieve without risking a generic action scene.

 

[greendomo's ghost]

Superman Returns failed for me because I didn't believe any of it. I didn't believe Superman would abandon us for four years. I didn't believe he would be in love with THAT Lois. I didn't believe anyone in the world, they all felt like charicatures. The most likeable and relatable character in that film was James Marsden.

II didn't believe Luthor's grand plan. Or Luthor himself actually. And by tying themselves so closely to the Reeves version, they really made that believability stretch. I felt like Metropolis had been stuck in a time bubble for 20 years.

The whole movie felt to me like Superman's bastard child. Half from one world, have from another, and making no real sense.

Does it have some nice cinematography?
Yes.
Does it have a few good emotional moments? Yes.
When you take away the nostalgia of the Reeves version does it stand on it's own merits?
No.

 

[krypt0nian]

This is particularly true when it comes to demigod-like figures such as Superman and Hulk. A good example of this is Jason Bourne using a rolled up newspaper to produce a more thrilling and memorable fight scene than the mass destruction of concrete super strength offers. The Incredible Hulk and Avengers both did this, but I cant point to any memorable fight scene in either.

Whilst I do want Superman to demonstrate his strength and power, I'm not sure how you achieve without risking a generic action scene.

You need to watch Superman:TAS. They prove you wrong so many times over. And I could write/envision a Hulk fight scene in my sleep that would bowl anyone over.

I cannot relate to anything you've written about Superman in this whole thread, so I guess I'll just chalk it up to wholly different perspectives on this.


Oh, and not entirely directed at you by any means, but any praise of Returns outside of some goergeous shots here and there, is as bad as praising Lois & Clark. Terrible, terrible stuff and painful for a real Superman fan to endure.

 

[Hindle]

A film about a god who can basically do anything yet Luthor beats him by kicking him over, that was my problem with Returns.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

This is particularly true when it comes to demigod-like figures such as Superman and Hulk. A good example of this is Jason Bourne using a rolled up newspaper to produce a more thrilling and memorable fight scene than the mass destruction of concrete super strength offers. The Incredible Hulk and Avengers both did this, but I cant point to any memorable fight scene in either.

Whilst I do want Superman to demonstrate his strength and power, I'm not sure how you achieve without risking a generic action scene.

Either have Superman go up against a physically powerful enemy, or have enemies that he can obliterate in droves whilst maintaining a PG rating, like Thor fighting the frost giants.

Just watch this and tell me it wouldn't be awesome in live action.

 

[Messypandas]

None of the characters in Returns were likeable

 

[Blader]

The worst and weirdest thing about Superman Returns is Jimmy Olsen. What the hell were they thinking?

 

[jett]

We're not gonna hear any of the classic John Williams music either, are we?

Nope, and that's a good thing.

 

[Router]

A film about a god who can basically do anything yet Luthor beats him by kicking him over, that was my problem with Returns.

And stabbing him in the back...





... While standing on an island made of one of the few things in the universe that can kill him.

 

[Eidan]

A film about a god who can basically do anything yet Luthor beats him by kicking him over, that was my problem with Returns.

Goddamn. I remember leaving the theater and all anyone was talking about was how Superman didn't fight anyone.

 

[Hindle]

I think Snyder recognises he's never going to beat the first two films when it comes to emotion, he has to go in the other direction, great action being the focus with emotional moments in between.

 

[Dead Man]

And stabbing him in the back...





... While standing on an island made of one of the few things in the universe that can kill him.

That there was a problem too.

 

[Router]

First time seeing the trailer just now.

What is up with them changing Pa Kent's character? He's a pessimist and tells Clark maybe he shouldn't have saved those people? And that quote at the end?

The fuck? This isn't Superman.

Go read Superman: Birthright to see the direction they are taking Kent. He's conflicted. He's still the Pa Kent we all know but it's more human I guess.

 

[Angry Fork]

A film about a god who can basically do anything yet Luthor beats him by kicking him over, that was my problem with Returns.

Clark being stabbed by kryptonite and kicked over/incapacitated isn't a problem, it's when he later raises an entire mountain of kryptonite that makes the whole thing silly.

 

[Messypandas]

This is Superman in a post 9/11 world

 

[JB1981]

If it was anywhere on youtube I would gif the FUCK out of the car flight/Supes setting down the car. Magical stuff.

It's a shame when a flawed movie with as many beautiful moments as Returns gets absolutely shitted on while movies like The Avengers are praised to high heaven.

Magical stuff when he set down the car? Really sculli ? Lol

 

[Dead Man]

Clark being stabbed by kryptonite and kicked over/incapacitated isn't a problem, it's when he later raises an entire mountain of kryptonite that makes the whole thing silly.

Not to mention the plot was basically cribbed form the first movie. When three of the 5 movies feature Kyrptonite, it is too fucking much.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

My man.

For some reason the shot of people walking down the street and seeing superman on patrol as he flew by really stuck with me.


Anybody have a gif of that?

 

[artist]

Still the best looking super hero movie out there.

teehee

 

[Joel Was Right]

This latter scene came from a fanart wallpaper, not Singer or any of the screenwriters. This fan was flown on set and given the VIP treatment. I would have just demanded payment personally lol

 

[Mengy]

Returns may not have been action packed (I still don't understand the demand to see Superman smash through things), but he still had that a presence to him in the film. The scene where he changes in the elevator, for example, or when he appears at the roof of the Daily Planet blowing out the cigarette. Singer evoked the mythic power and romanticism of Superman just by how he panned the camera around him. I dont think we've seen any other comic book adaptation achieve that yet

Honestly, I like Returns, and I agree with you mostly, but even I have to admit the movie had so many flaws. Mostly the story, I would have done so many things differently. I would have skipped the super boy entirely. I would have given Lex a much better plan / scheme than a real estate thing. I would have had an enemy that Superman could have actually fought against, and yes I would have had Superman actually throw some punches.

The plane scene was the climax of the movie for me. That scene was done absolutely perfectly. I'm still saddened by how the film just peters off afterwards.

You need to watch Superman:TAS. They prove you wrong so many times over. And I could write/envision a Hulk fight scene in my sleep that would bowl anyone over.

I cannot relate to anything you've written about Superman in this whole thread, so I guess I'll just chalk it up to wholly different perspectives on this.


Oh, and not entirely directed at you by any means, but any praise of Returns outside of some goergeous shots here and there, is as bad as praising Lois & Clark. Terrible, terrible stuff and painful for a real Superman fan to endure.

I agree on TAS, I wish to God a live action Superman movie would just use TAS as a template and run with it. Dial Superman down a few notches so that he can be challenged realistically. Make Lex an "honest" businessman who runs half of Metropolis and uses the shield of law to protect himself from Superman. Give Clark and Lois a real relationship. TAS did so much right, it's still my favorite adaption of Superman ever.

However, I disagree with you about Returns. While it did a lot of things horribly, it still had a lot of very good points about it.

 

[Mengy]

This latter scene came from a fanart wallpaper, not Singer or any of the screenwriters. This fan was flown on set and given the VIP treatment. I would have just demanded payment personally lol

Really? That's actually my favorite scene in Returns, second only to the plane scene. It always made me feel like even though they got so much wrong in the movie, they really did deep down understand who Superman really is. Kind of disappointing to know that it wasn't Singer's or the screenwriters doing...