December Comic |OT| Apocalypse NOW - Time Enough At Last.

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Yeah, my biggest complaints was Hazmat and Mettle were out of character. In a character driven book as well. Meh.

But art was amazing. Just feel bad for Walker.
 
I'm excited to see that Lone Wolf & Cub is getting an omnibus in March. I wanted to buy the first volume but saw it was out of print.
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
Before Watchmen, blanketly, is unnecessary dreck. Anyone who's read even a sentence of my posts or published criticism knows my feelings on the works of Cooke and Azzarello. Doesn't change the fact that Before Watchmen is a graveyard that sucks in good creative and spits out dreck. Has nothing to do with anyone being a hack and I'm offended by the implication on Cooke and Azzarello's behalf.
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I am aware of your feeling on the concept behind the books. The question remains, are you dismissing them as "dreck" based on actually having read them or are you being dismissive of them based on their mere existence? I learned a long time ago that its wise to judge things on their actual merits and not on preconceived notions.
 
crimsonspider89 said:
Yeah, my biggest complaints was Hazmat and Mettle were out of character. In a character driven book as well. Meh.

But art was amazing. Just feel bad for Walker.
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What on earth makes you consider a Battle Royale-inspired, Arcade-run murder arena comic a "character driven book?"

I don't know who Hazmat or Mettle are and I don't give a fuuuuuuuuuuuck, I want them dead.
 
Machine said:
I am aware of your feeling on the concept behind the books. The question remains, are you dismissing them as "dreck" based on actually having read them or are you being dismissive of them based on their mere existence? I learned a long time ago that its wise to judge things on their actual merits and not on preconceived notions.
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I read the previews.

And having read both 100 Bullets and the...Rorschach pages in question, I stand by my assessment. It's the only explanation for that coming from the same guy who led 100 consecutive issues to the best final page of any series in the history of the medium.
 
LiQuid! said:
What on earth makes you consider a Battle Royale-inspired, Arcade-run murder arena comic a "character driven book?"

I don't know who Hazmat or Mettle are and I don't give a fuuuuuuuuuuuck, I want them dead.
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Perhaps that the writer said it was? I'm mean he was obviously lying, but he did say it.

This whole kill em all attitude is so base.
 
crimsonspider89 said:
Cause that was what he said. I understand you want a blood bath but fans of said characters don't want this book to be mindless bloodbath.
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He had two options:
a) Kill off one of the newbs and go cheap
b) Kill someone established with the risk that he'd have less time to characterize that character in this context

I'd go B every time. I think he did a fine job, all things considered. Being unfamiliar with the character, I think he gave that character solid motivation, dilemma, crisis point. All the McKee bases were covered.
 
He didn't though. As someone who is familiar with the character. Mettle and Hazmat during the flashback was nothing like her. She was a bitch after her powers emerged but she was shown as having the perfect life pre powers. Mettle developed PTSD after killing a Nazi during FI. So he is not okay with killing anybody.
 
"Fans" of said characters. I feel bad for you guys, but yeah, I'm base, whatever. Gimme a show and make it interesting and fun to look at and I'm cool. There isn't enough murder in mainstream comics so I'll take it any way I can get it.

Back on Batman, so I really didn't like the issue at all. Half of it wasted with the Batfamily sitting around debating whether or not Joker knows who they are when they all wear nothing on their heads but a tiny, raccoon, bandit mask. Pretty amazing how fast Batman went from "Comic of the Year, If Not Comic of the Forever" (according to fanboys) with issue 13 to spinning its wheels and wasting time on total nonsense.

This is like a fucking DC thing now. They take a fucking year to tell any kind of story, each issue is a fucking drip of progress towards the end goal. Meanwhile Marvel is telling stories at speeds so breakneck you'd have to be a fucking millionaire to keep up with all the double/triple/quad shipping if you wanted to read everything in their line (not that you would). There HAS to be some kind of happy medium between these two styles of storytelling. DC needs to speed it the fuck up and Marvel needs to slow it the fuck down but holy shit are both companies trying REALLY hard to turn me back off picking up weeklies.

Edit: Before TTOB wakes up, yes I know the answer is to stop reading Marvel/DC and read indie/creator owned comics, shut up, I heard you the first time.
 
sazabirules said:
I'm excited to see that Lone Wolf & Cub is getting an omnibus in March. I wanted to buy the first volume but saw it was out of print.
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It's great. If you're lucky samurai executioner/path of the assassin will follow. Still no news on shin lone wolf I guess?
 
Well, fuck. I went back and read the solicits, and I'll need some money...

Superior Spider-Man
Age of Ultron
Captain Marvel
Gambit
Young Avengers
Avengers
New Avengers
Captain America
Wolverine
Scarlet Spider
Hawkeye

...

Granted, some of these books I only want to try one issue of (and Captain Marvel's still on very shaky ground), but still!
 
crimsonspider89 said:
He didn't though. As someone who is familiar with the character. Mettle and Hazmat during the flashback was nothing like her. She was a bitch after her powers emerged but she was shown as having the perfect life pre powers. Mettle developed PTSD after killing a Nazi during FI. So he is not okay with killing anybody.
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He didn't do these things in the context of the story?

I think he gave that character solid motivation, dilemma, crisis point.
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I disagree.

Look, as much as I love the minutia of Longshot's storied history, I'm not going to get my socks twisted because, say, his appearance in Wolverine and the X-Men contradicts whatever's going on in X-Factor. I don't think I'm breaking any new ground by saying one is a higher profile book and, thus, probably gets the right to sort of dictate how these characters work.

Sorry you don't feel like Mettle deserved to be that in love with someone, but that was his motivation, dilemma, and crisis point; all leading to the moment of resolution. Considering most comics can barely even pull that much off, I was fine with how it all went.
 
8bit said:
It's great. If you're lucky samurai assassin will follow. Still no news on shin lone wolf I guess?
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Do you mean Samurai Executioner? I googled Shin Lone Wolf and all I could find was a Dark Horse employee on their forum saying getting the rights to it were very complicated. That was posted in the beginning of 2012.
 
LiQuid! said:
"Fans" of said characters. I feel bad for you guys, but yeah, I'm base, whatever. Gimme a show and make it interesting and fun to look at and I'm cool. There isn't enough murder in mainstream comics so I'll take it any way I can get it.

Back on Batman, so I really didn't like the issue at all. Half of it wasted with the Batfamily sitting around debating whether or not Joker knows who they are when they all wear nothing on their heads but a tiny, raccoon, bandit mask. Pretty amazing how fast Batman went from "Comic of the Year, If Not Comic of the Forever" (according to fanboys) with issue 13 to spinning its wheels and wasting time on total nonsense.

This is like a fucking DC thing now. They take a fucking year to tell any kind of story, each issue is a fucking drip of progress towards the end goal. Meanwhile Marvel is telling stories at speeds so breakneck you'd have to be a fucking millionaire to keep up with all the double/triple/quad shipping if you wanted to read everything in their line (not that you would). There HAS to be some kind of happy medium between these two styles of storytelling. DC needs to speed it the fuck up and Marvel needs to slow it the fuck down but holy shit are both companies trying REALLY hard to turn me back off picking up weeklies.

Edit: Before TTOB wakes up, yes I know the answer is to stop reading Marvel/DC and read indie/creator owned comics, shut up, I heard you the first time.
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Avengers/New Avengers seems pretty slow, even if hypershipped.
 
LiQuid! said:
"Fans" of said characters. I feel bad for you guys, but yeah, I'm base, whatever. Gimme a show and make it interesting and fun to look at and I'm cool. There isn't enough murder in mainstream comics so I'll take it any way I can get it.

Back on Batman, so I really didn't like the issue at all. Half of it wasted with the Batfamily sitting around debating whether or not Joker knows who they are when they all wear nothing on their heads but a tiny, raccoon, bandit mask. Pretty amazing how fast Batman went from "Comic of the Year, If Not Comic of the Forever" (according to fanboys) with issue 13 to spinning its wheels and wasting time on total nonsense.

This is like a fucking DC thing now. They take a fucking year to tell any kind of story, each issue is a fucking drip of progress towards the end goal. Meanwhile Marvel is telling stories at speeds so breakneck you'd have to be a fucking millionaire to keep up with all the double/triple/quad shipping if you wanted to read everything in their line (not that you would). There HAS to be some kind of happy medium between these two styles of storytelling. DC needs to speed it the fuck up and Marvel needs to slow it the fuck down but holy shit are both companies trying REALLY hard to turn me back off picking up weeklies.
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Uh, what? Were it not for the fact they love shipping more than motherfucking tumblr, most of Marvel's stories would be slow as molasses. I mean, for fuck's sake, this is the company that employs Brian Michael Bendis.

Not that it's really a problem, though. Sometimes stories need to take their time, and in the case of Batman #15, I feel like you're calling things like "rising the tension" and "developing the characters" "total nonsense", when really, they aren't.
 
Nope. Not at all.

You really need to read Academy. Mettle was nothing like Mettle at all. He is in love and all. Hell, he didn't have Hazmat nor Mettle during the issue address that Hazmat and Mettle beat him before. And to question the power difference.
 
ElNarez said:
Uh, what? Were it not for the fact they love shipping more than motherfucking tumblr, most of Marvel's stories would be slow as molasses. I mean, for fuck's sake, this is the company that employs Brian Michael Bendis.

Not that it's really a problem, though. Sometimes stories need to take their time, and in the case of Batman #15, I feel like you're calling things like "rising the tension" and "developing the characters" "total nonsense", when really, they aren't.
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That's what I meant by breakneck, the ridiculous shipping schedule. Look at Iron Man. Much love to Gillen, seriously but I can't think of more efficient way to get rid of $12 and get nothing in return over the course of a month than to have bought all four issues of Iron Man since Marvel Now started.

Re: "rising the tension" and "developing the characters" I'm trying real hard not to go off into another big rant full of more uses of the word "fuck" than I'd realize until after I hit "submit reply" but I think you're wrong, I think what you just said is laughable, and I think Batman 15 was a terrible issue and you're trying to rationalize it just made me hate it worse.

NOW TELL ME WHERE THE HELL BATMAN'S GLOVES WENT!!!!!
 
LiQuid! said:
That's what I meant by breakneck, the ridiculous shipping schedule. Look at Iron Man. Much love to Gillen, seriously but I can't think of more efficient way to get rid of $12 and get nothing in return over the course of a month than to have bought all four issues of Iron Man since Marvel Now started.

Re: "rising the tension" and "developing the characters" I'm trying real hard not to go off into another big rant full of more uses of the word "fuck" than I'd realize until after I hit "submit reply" but I think you're wrong, I think what you just said is laughable, and I think Batman 15 was a terrible issue and you're trying to rationalize it just made me hate it worse.

NOW TELL ME WHERE THE HELL BATMAN'S GLOVES WENT!!!!!
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He slipped them off in a panel. Easy to miss.
 
Batman was pretty good, an issue full of set up. Those can be hit or miss and I guess this one was a bit boring. I liked the back up more than the main story. Next issue shit is about to pop off though.
 
LiQuid! said:
Tell me exactly which panel so I can go find said panel and then come back and call you a liar and an apologist.
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It's the same one as the exploding helicopter, the fingers go limp as he slips out of them to escape the ropes. It's really really easy to miss if you aren't looking for it.
 
B-Dubs said:
It's the same one as the exploding helicopter, the fingers go limp as he slips out of them to escape the ropes. It's really really easy to miss if you aren't looking for it.
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I see an exploding helicopter and his glove is in the foreground of the frame.... But there is NO hand slipping out of said glove. It looks very much as if the hand is still inside of said glove. The very next panel Batman is gloveless. The gloves are nowhere to be found.
 
LiQuid! said:
I see an exploding helicopter and his glove is in the foreground of the frame.... But there is NO hand slipping out of said glove. It looks very much as if the hand is still inside of said glove. The very next panel Batman is gloveless. The gloves are nowhere to be found.
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Nah that's a gloveless hand, you can tell because the ropes around it aren't tight anymore they're all loose.
 
B-Dubs said:
Nah that's a gloveless hand, you can tell because the ropes around it aren't tight anymore they're all loose.
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There is NO way that is a gloveless hand! It has the little spikes sticking out of it like his gloves do! It is 100% gloved! And there is no evidence of a hand slipping out of it!
 
Acid08 said:
That is the panel but it really wasn't made as clear as it could have been.
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Yea, it could definitely be better. It's really not something you can see unless it's pointed out to you.

LiQuid! said:
There is NO way that is a gloveless hand! It has the little spikes sticking out of it like his gloves do! It is 100% gloved! And there is no evidence of a hand slipping out of it!
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I mean that it's a handless glove. I screwed up my phrasing.
 
crimsonspider89 said:
Nope. Not at all.

You really need to read Academy. Mettle was nothing like Mettle at all. He is in love and all. Hell, he didn't have Hazmat nor Mettle during the issue address that Hazmat and Mettle beat him before. And to question the power difference.
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At count I believe you're using he/him to describe at least three different people and your last sentence involves no subject whatsoever.

So I'm kind of at a loss as to how to respond, but it sounds like your core argument is that "A book few people read was not properly acknowledged."

Fair enough. I guess, since the book was cancelled, you could pretend Mettle died at the end of it instead of in this book? I don't know what else to tell you. As someone who never read that book and was drawn to the book because of the creative team involved (pretty much the audience they were going for, as why would they only want to appeal to the audience of a book that couldn't be financially supported?) I was satisfied with the execution (no pun intended).

I don't know what else to tell you. They succeeded at what they were trying to do, which is gain the interest of someone who never read the books most of these characters appeared in. It seems like what you want is for them to make sure they appeal to the readers of the books these characters used to be in, none of which were ever drawn by Kev Walker.

Avengers Academy never drew my interest because, frankly, I was never drawn in by the talent involved. I care about that sort of thing way more than Mettle's back story. I loved Runaways because of Vaughan and Alphona (god I miss Alphona). I didn't read the subsequent runs so I have no investment in what may or may not have happened to the cast in the interim and the subsequent "backstories" that had emerged over that timeframe.

As much as Hopeless may have missed out on details, do you really believe, fundamentally, that someone who went to school to be an Avenger wouldn't sacrifice himself for someone he loved?
 
Ok, SOME Comic-GAFers think this is a picture of a hand slipping out of a glove and I think said GAFers are bonkers. This is the panel in question and it shows up DIRECTLY preceding a shot of a gloveless Batman struggling to escape some rope.

Rest of Comic-GAF, YOU be the judge.

Sb3Th.jpg


I'm gonna make fucking missing dog posters for Batman's gloves and hang them around my neighborhood.

Edit:
B-Dubs said:
I mean that it's a handless glove. I screwed up my phrasing.
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What about that glove illustrates whether or not that it could even be considered handless? THIS IS MADNESS!
 
I have no problem with the death scene. I have a problem with the scenes prior to the death scene.

Mettle was completely OOC with his statement about I don't care if anyone else dies as long as you don't. He was shown developing PTSD after killing a Nazi and is always shocked by how brutal and strong he is when he loses his temper. He is also shown as more reckless and not the cautious one unlike Hazmat. Hazmat speaking truthfuly would of been the one to think about a way to approach Arcade. And after he threw her she would be angry and throwing cuss words every way.

On top of that this is Hazmat and Mettle and Reptil's second encounter with Arcade. And they never question how Arcade received these power upgrades.

And Gage established that Hazmat was happy and content before her powers appeared where in the beginning Hopeless sets her up as a hater to begin with.

Those are the OOC moments I speak of.
 
LiQuid! said:
That's what I meant by breakneck, the ridiculous shipping schedule. Look at Iron Man. Much love to Gillen, seriously but I can't think of more efficient way to get rid of $12 and get nothing in return over the course of a month than to have bought all four issues of Iron Man since Marvel Now started.
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Sure, they're all done-in-one adventures, but how do you not see the thematic connection or all the things Gillen sets up that inform his take on Iron Man? Really, the only problem I have with it is Greg fucking Land, but when he's not drawing human being he's good enough.

LiQuid! said:
Re: "rising the tension" and "developing the characters" I'm trying real hard not to go off into another big rant full of more uses of the word "fuck" than I'd realize until after I hit "submit reply" but I think you're wrong, I think what you just said is laughable, and I think Batman 15 was a terrible issue and you're trying to rationalize it just made me hate it worse.

NOW TELL ME WHERE THE HELL BATMAN'S GLOVES WENT!!!!!
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Yo, there's been more than a couple of times where I broke out the expletive-laden big rant. I'm fine with it, and I think it would help me understand what the fuck you're on about, because as willing as I am to say that sometimes Snyder's way too much in love with his ability to write prose to write anything but scenes of dudes talking about the crazy fucked up shit that just happened, this was him at his most reasonable when it comes to wordcount.

Also, Batman & Robin was still better.
 
Spike Spiegel said:
Who's screaming "Aaaiiiee"? Someone off panel? And what the hell is wrong with Batman's wrist?
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The screaming, I imagine is coming from the poor GPD officers getting their shit smoked.

As for Batman's wrist, I dunno bro, it's bent?

Listen, AT BEST, let's assume I am willing to admit that the glove pictured has NO HAND in it (I am not) this is still only evidence of ONE handless glove! The other glove remains unaccounted for! THIS COMIC IS BULLSHIT!
 
Machine said:
I am aware of your feeling on the concept behind the books. The question remains, are you dismissing them as "dreck" based on actually having read them or are you being dismissive of them based on their mere existence? I learned a long time ago that its wise to judge things on their actual merits and not on preconceived notions.
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It's nice of Birdie to take a moral stance instead of his typical bobble headed yes-man stance.

Sadly it's a futile effort.

The funnybook racket is built on shitty verbal and broken contracts.

Including Watchmen. Why did Alan Moore and Dave Gibbon's think they'd be treated any different after the 40 years of creator buggery that preceded them?

The only way to stick it to The Man is to stop buying The Man's shit. Stop paying to see the movies. Stop buying the video games. Stop buying the toys.

Hit the fuckers where it hurts across the board.

Marvel and DC aren't going to change.

Fuck creators, get paid = Marvel/DC.
 
Actually, I think those involved in comics need to get a worker's union started which would be the best thingf. It would force DC/Marvel to be more fair to the writers and artists and such.
 
I think Arena is about the same as Uncanny Avengers to me. I bought it mostly for one character (Rogue, Laura) theres a second character I like in both (Alex, Nico) and the villain got himself all amped up something new. I'll probably buy more. I'll even try that Young AVengers you kids are freaking out over I guess
 
I'm going to be that guy and say it.

Avengers Arena. 3/4 of the characters no one gives a fuck about in any significant amount. Hell the most popular character is Laura and her popularity has waned quite a bit.

Mettle? Good, he was lame and boring. Kawabunga dude.
Laura - She'll live, the question is can the not make her the female wolverine as in being a punching bag for everyone. This is a good time to focus on her state of mind and how she feels about having to kill her fellow avengies.
Hazmat - Hopefully she survives somehow because I like her bitter/chip on the shoulder attitude.
Electric Boy - Meh
Dino Boy - Meh
 
The Take Out Bandit said:
It's nice of Birdie to take a moral stance instead of his typical bobble headed yes-man stance.
Sadly it's a futile effort.
The funnybook racket is built on shitty verbal and broken contracts.
Including Watchmen. Why did Alan Moore and Dave Gibbon's think they'd be treated any different after the 40 years of creator buggery that preceded them?
The only way to stick it to The Man is to stop buying The Man's shit. Stop paying to see the movies. Stop buying the video games. Stop buying the toys.
Hit the fuckers where it hurts across the board.
Marvel and DC aren't going to change.
Fuck creators, get paid = Marvel/DC.
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On the other hand, I became reluctant to support most indie, creator-owned stuff years ago. Why? Broken promises and unfinished stories. I have been collect a LONG time and I have long boxes full of comics that started full of promise and potential that were abruptly cancelled mid-story and never gave any sense of closure. You get burned enough and you eventually become risk averse in that regard.
 
Angelus Errare said:
I'm going to be that guy and say it.

Avengers Arena. 3/4 of the characters no one gives a fuck about in any significant amount. Hell the most popular character is Laura and her popularity has waned quite a bit.

Mettle? Good, he was lame and boring. Kawabunga dude.
Laura - She'll live, the question is can the not make her the female wolverine as in being a punching bag for everyone. This is a good time to focus on her state of mind and how she feels about having to kill her fellow avengies.
Hazmat - Hopefully she survives somehow because I like her bitter/chip on the shoulder attitude.
Electric Boy - Meh
Dino Boy - Meh
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Am I crazy or is the Akira dude from Gen Hope on the cover? Or is that Reptil or some shit.
 
Lyte Edge said:
I checked it out yesterday...the comic should have been titled "Morbius, The Living Vampire #0." Don't bother with it unless you're interested in his new series.
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It actually got me interested in the character, but I don't think the art will be as good.

Also, the new Dark Avengers quasi-reboot is actually pretty great, story-wise.

The DA get shunted to this alternate Earth where Reed, Dr. Strange, Tony Stark, and others have quadroned off their own sections of the city.

UNCIVIL WAR.
 
Last thing on this and I'm done.

Hopeless failed miserably at the thing he claims his book will be about. Characterization. There's no real way to discuss it further. Defending it is defending poor work. And this is with characters that are easily researched He's using paper dolls to prop up a story that disregards their basic natures.

I get that some haven't read them before, and are oblivious to this, but he is still turning in poor work. I'm sure there are people who are unfamiliar with Watchmen, who think JMS is rocking their socks.
 
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