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[Fantastical]

And what do you think would happen if guns were illegal? Surely you'd think knife mass murders would increase, right? Are you going to ban knives next? My argument is you cannot legislate the insane because if they are determined to kill, even at the expense of their own life, then they will.

I'M SAYING IT IS HARDER TO KILL SOMEONE WITH A KNIFE THAN A GUN. I know you think that the difference is negligible, but you are wrong. I would also much rather take my chances against a dude with a knife.

Yes, knife mass murders would increase. Do they have a significantly smaller chance of causing this kind of death? I think so.

You keep saying "KNIVES ARE DEADLY" we fucking get it. They are not as deadly as firearms.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

If there was money to be made selling guns in the US, I'm quite sure the cartels would be happy to make that happen. If you want to reduce the amount of guns from 88 for every 100 people, you either have to turn the US into an anti gun police state or completely change the gun culture in the country. Both seem nearly impossible as goals to me. I agree that guns are super deadly weapons but I don't think we're at a point where you can realistically do anything about it.

But making it so a would be mass murderer has to go to a cartel vs Walmart is useless and futile and absolutely will not change anything?

Seriously?

Going to walmart vs a cartel. Same thing? One of those isn't dangerous, or inconvenient, or difficult to do?

Nope, just keep on chugging, it's useless to even bother.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Do you seriously believe that this man would have been able to kill almost 30 people today with a knife in the same amount of time as a gun?

Does a knife have to be exactly as lethal as a gun in order to be considered a dangerously lethal tool than can easily be abused by the insane?

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Isn't anyone worried about the fact that only criminals or people who REALLY want to Kill will have guns (if they are outright banned)? there are a ton of illegal drugs yet cartels still manage to get them in the states and users and criminals still sell/use them.

I'm sure advocates for tighter gun control (or even banning them altogether) has already addressed this.

 

[EviLore]

Does a knife have to be exactly as lethal as a gun in order to be considered a dangerously lethal tool than can easily be abused by the insane?

Go away, moron.

 

[Beelzeboss]

Man it's so weird seeing people bring up knives in here like they even compare.

I'd be more worried about someone trying to use explosives or even a car if they couldn't get their hands on a gun.

 

[Oppo]

Here's another thing that just kills me:

Age to own crazy assault rifle in Connecticut: 18

Age to drink in Connecticut: 21

Like... I just... head... full of fuck...

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Only two of these statistics have anything to do with murder.

But think of how long we can make this X axis if we include irrelevant figures!!

 

[IHaveCandy]

I'M SAYING IT IS HARDER TO KILL SOMEONE WITH A KNIFE THAN A GUN. I know you think that the difference is negligible, but you are wrong. I would also much rather take my chances against a dude with a knife.

Yes, knife mass murders would increase. Do they have a significantly smaller chance of causing this kind of death? I think so.

You keep saying "KNIVES ARE DEADLY" we fucking get it. They are not as deadly as firearms.

So guns are banned and instead of 20 students being killed by firearms, it is only 10. Do we say 10 dead students is acceptable. Hunting knives are permissible because of that.

 

[xxracerxx]

Does a knife have to be exactly as lethal as a gun in order to be considered a dangerously lethal tool than can easily be abused by the insane?

No one is arguing that a knife isn't a dangerously lethal tool, I don't know why you think otherwise.

So guns are banned and instead of 20 students being killed by firearms, it is only 10. Do we say 10 dead students is acceptable. Hunting knives are permissible because of that.

Jesus. You are really trying to be intentionally obtuse.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

But making it so a would be mass murderer has to go to a cartel vs Walmart is useless and futile and absolutely will not change anything?

Seriously?

Going to walmart vs a cartel. Same thing? One of those isn't dangerous, or inconvenient, or difficult to do?

Nope, just keep on chugging, it's useless to even bother.

why would they even need to go to a cartel? Just borrow the gun from your girlfriend's brother or whatever. We're practically swimming in them.

 

[Parakeetman]

Its actually easier to get an illegal firearm than a legal one depending on where one is in the US.

That or have a proxy get it, then you use said firearm. Granted in that situation good chance too the one who was the proxy gets in trouble also depending on the situation of how the unlicensed member got their hands on said firearm.

A recent example of this would be the Mark Miyashiro guy who was arrested recently in Hawaii for making threats against the President of the United States. While he was legally barred from purchasing firearms his wife was able to do so which then wound up in his possession.

 

[Devolution]

Go away, moron.

Thank you so much. Can't even discuss the issue without "but knives!" Ridiculous.

 

[Timedog]

Its actually easier to get an illegal gun than a legal one depending on where one is in the US.

hmmmm, wonder where all the illegal ones come from?

 

[Brinbe]

Go away, moron.

Thank god. Just unbelievably dumb.

And these "but the illegal guns!" argument doesn't really negate the need for stricter regulation. Fuck you and your convenience.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

No. There's a large black market that exists for someone that's going to break the law by shooting kids they'll break the law and get a gun off the black market.

 

[Freshmaker]

Why do people bring up other weapons? Can you spray knifes and kill several people at a distance? For fucks sake, it's not an argument.

They like to turn off their brain and argue that a weapon is a weapon so therefore there is no difference since a fist, a gun, or a knife can all kill people.

No. There's a large black market that exists for someone that's going to break the law by shooting kids they'll break the law and get a gun off the black market.

Exactly. It's just the suckers like the Aurora shooter, the Kent State guy, the Columbine kids that buy their guns through legal channels. System works!

 

[Derrick01]

So guns are banned and instead of 20 students being killed by firearms, it is only 10. Do we say 10 dead students is acceptable.

No, but simple math and common sense would tell me 10 deaths is better than 20.

Also sign me up as another who would rather take their chances against a crazy knife wielder than a gun. I can run or counter that (thank you martial arts training!) but I'm not superman who can stop a bullet with his teeth.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Thank god. Just unbelievably dumb.

The way he began to describe how easily he could shank a random person at a mall, and then began to describe how he'd best use a knife in a situation to take down a school, was getting pretty creepy too.

 

[Tzeentch]

I never understood why (as a Canadian):

• Live ammunition were ever made available to public when things like rubber bullets or bean bag rounds could be nearly as effective without being (always) fatal.

Those are very large-caliber projectiles. You can't build a 9mm "rubber bullet." Even so, there is a reason why they are referred to as less-than-lethal rounds and not "nonlethal.

• You need license to drive a car but not a gun. A car's primary purpose isn't to propel projectiles at very high velocities toward soft and hard targets. So why isn't there a mandatory classes on how to handle firearms (including safely storing it etc) and test for gun owners to qualify them to check (to an extent) for sound mind, competence etc?

Not entirely clear on the specifics of licensing in every state. But do keep in mind that gun ownership is a specifically delineated right in the US, not a privilege. Plenty of people gripe about car licensing as well, especially since in many areas of the US you are basically boned without a personal vehicle.

 

[Hawkian]

Not sure how legit this is, but interesting to look at.

You want to know how legit it is?

Those numbers aren't even fucking accurate from the source they claim to use.

Look at where they are getting those numbers:

GUESS WHAT? "All" homicides include firearm homicides. These are the 2009 numbers. Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

FUCK that chart. Fuck anyone who posts it thinking they are making a legitimate point. Fuck the quote on it and anyone trying to draw a parallel between guns and baseball bats. Fuck anyone who implies that gun violence isn't a problem because there are other types of violence (like, oh I don't know, KNIFE attacks).

To be clear, my anger isn't directed at you alphaNoid, but I recognized how bullshit those numbers were on spec and holy fuck is my blood boiling. I need a breather :-/

Only two of these statistics have anything to do with murder.

Yes and they are portrayed in a completely fucking fabricated way. There were not 16,799 "non-firearm" homicides in 2009.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Its actually easier to get an illegal gun than a legal one depending on where one is in the US.

Those guns were purchased legally at one point in time. The gun lobby refuses to even allow a discussion about closing loopholes in gun laws that allow for those guns to be purchased in the first place and then resold.

 

[hwalker84]

Not sure how legit this is, but interesting to look at.

Personally I don't think tighter gun control is going to stop someone who wants to kill people. There are plenty (millions) of law abiding gun owners who exercise their right to bare arms legally and without harm to others. Its very unfortunate however that all it takes is one wacko monster to go on a killing spree and taint that image.

None of what I'm saying takes away from the tragedy today, I am heartbroken by what I'm reading/hearing on the news today. It hits me way too close to home since I have 2 small children. However, in discussion ... the issue should be less about gun control and more about fixing these problems we have in society. Guns have been around for many many years, but these shootings in large numbers are only something that has started happening over the past few short years (decade or so).

My question is.. what changed? Whats going on with society these days that people are reduced to murdering others instead of just taking their own life? Why do suicidal people choose to go this route? Is it more than just a psychological issue? Is it partly due to the mass media coverage these things get? Do would be killers simply feel they can go out with a bang and make headlines news on their way out instead of falling to page 20 in the local news paper?

What changed? Why are people killing others on their way out? If guns were removed completely.. do some of you really think stuff like this wouldn't happen? Because I don't. I feel like if someone wants to kill others, then themselves in a blaze of glory.. where there is a will, there is a way. We would likely see less gun shootings and more make shift bombings or other crazy shit. I do not think guns are the problem, guns are simply an inanimate object.. a tool.

Whats going on with society is my question?

Where'd you get that jpg?

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

for people who think it's mainly gun laws that need to be changed... how do you explain Norway? Don't they have some of the strictest laws yet one of the worst gun massacres ever?

if it were up to me, I'd snap my fingers and all guns would be gone forever. I hate them. But I don't see gun laws curbing these tragic events. Maybe I'm wrong though.

1 gun massacre ever vs several in 1 year

 

[balladofwindfishes]

why would they even need to go to a cartel? Just borrow the gun from your girlfriend's brother or whatever. We're practically swimming in them.

Long term thinking. Maybe if we make it harder you can go to your brother's house and use his gun now

But in 5 years?

10 years?

As the years go on, guns will get harder and harder to find. Your brother will have ran out of ammo and needs to register his gun to buy more, now suddenly it's harder to get ammo and less and less people do it.

There are things to do. Not everything needs to fix the problem day 1. Long term thinking and changes in structures can have profound effects. And it's far better than twiddling our thumbs and hoping for a massive shift in society.

 

[Parakeetman]

hmmmm, wonder where all the illegal ones come from?

Lots of places really. Stolen, bought legit, but then sold in an illegal manner.

 

[belvedere]

Go away, moron.

Can you moderate my FB account for a day or two? Haha

 

[Fantastical]

So guns are banned and instead of 20 students being killed by firearms, it is only 10. Do we say 10 dead students is acceptable. Hunting knives are permissible because of that.

If you're asking me if I think that 10 families without their child for Christmas is better than 20, I would say yes and that the difference isn't "negligible".

 

[Oppo]

Those are very large-caliber projectiles. You can't build a 9mm "rubber bullet." Even so, there is a reason why they are referred to as less-than-lethal rounds and not "nonlethal.

So? What's the problem?

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'm just not entirely convinced you could just stop crime by psychological profiling the way people are suggesting; most sociopaths/malignant narcissists are not raving lunatics and often become experts in saying what people need/want to hear.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Long term thinking. Maybe if we make it harder you can go to your brother's house and use his gun now

But in 5 years?

10 years?

As the years go on, guns will get harder and harder to find. Your brother will have ran out of ammo and needs to register his gun to buy more, now suddenly it's harder to get ammo and less and less people do it.

There are things to do. Not everything needs to fix the problem day 1. Long term thinking and changes in structures can have profound effects. And it's far better than twiddling our thumbs and hoping for a massive shift in society.

You can't change culture by legislating at it. It didn't work for prohibition, it didn't work for drugs, and it won't work for guns.

 

[Deified Data]

Thank god. Just unbelievably dumb.

And these "but the illegal guns!" argument doesn't really negate the need for stricter regulation. Fuck you and your convenience.

It wouldn't even be inconvenient to have a waiting period and a safety certification. These people are upset about nothing.

Unless you needed to kill something now.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

You can't change culture by legislating at it. It didn't work for prohibition, it didn't work for drugs, and it won't work for guns.

You also can't change the culture by refusing to talk about issues, which is what our current government has been doing for the last 15 years when it comes to guns and mental health.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Exactly. It's just the suckers like the Aurora shooter, the Kent State guy, the Columbine kids that buy their guns through legal channels. System works!

I didn't say let's not try to create a better system. The premise of the thread was WOULD increased gun regulation have prevented it. With a vibrant black market around the answer is no. Unfortunately.

I think putting the focus on gun control is extremely myopic. If we're going to talk about gun control then we need to talk about mental health services, lack of coping skills and many other problems in society. I was listening to the news and they said he worked at the school and was let go that morning. What leads to a person being unable to cope in such a fashion?

 

[alphaNoid]

Only two of these statistics have anything to do with murder.

True, and I'm not really taking a stance to defend those stats per say. Its just interesting to look at on a large scale is all.

 

[Hawkian]

Where'd you get that jpg?

I'm wondering this too. Whoever the answer to that question is, if it wasn't someone merely pointing out how misleading and fucking FALSE the chart is, they are the absolute scum of the earth.

 

[Delusibeta]

Not sure how legit this is, but interesting to look at.

Personally I don't think tighter gun control is going to stop someone who wants to kill people. There are plenty (millions) of law abiding gun owners who exercise their right to bare arms legally and without harm to others. Its very unfortunate however that all it takes is one wacko monster to go on a killing spree and taint that image.

None of what I'm saying takes away from the tragedy today, I am heartbroken by what I'm reading/hearing on the news today. It hits me way too close to home since I have 2 small children. However, in discussion ... the issue should be less about gun control and more about fixing these problems we have in society. Guns have been around for many many years, but these shootings in large numbers are only something that has started happening over the past few short years (decade or so).

My question is.. what changed? Whats going on with society these days that people are reduced to murdering others instead of just taking their own life? Why do suicidal people choose to go this route? Is it more than just a psychological issue? Is it partly due to the mass media coverage these things get? Do would be killers simply feel they can go out with a bang and make headlines news on their way out instead of falling to page 20 in the local news paper?

What changed? Why are people killing others on their way out? If guns were removed completely.. do some of you really think stuff like this wouldn't happen? Because I don't. I feel like if someone wants to kill others, then themselves in a blaze of glory.. where there is a will, there is a way. We would likely see less gun shootings and more make shift bombings or other crazy shit. I do not think guns are the problem, guns are simply an inanimate object.. a tool.

Whats going on with society is my question?

Maybe it's due to the fact that in 2009 (the latest figures were available) there is apparently 31,347 deaths due to firearms. Either your chart is bollocks or there's a definite increase in firearm-related deaths, either way more gun control is the answer.

 

[DietRob]

There would have to be an amendment to the constitution first. Unlike owning a firarm, driving is a privledge. Not a right.

When is the last time there was an amendment to the constitution? I'm looking at wikipedia right now and it looks like 1992?

 

[NYCrooner]

Blows my mind when in the middle of a fucking tragedy people in my office want to blame video games like Call of Duty and not the fact that guns are easier to get than a drivers license. I'm pretty sure Howard Unruh, Charles Whitman, George Banks, James Huberty, and many others did not have an XBox or Playstation. We need to find a way to respect the Second Amendment while stopping these senseless murders. Pointing fingers doesn't solve a mf-ing thing!

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

No. There's a large black market that exists for someone that's going to break the law by shooting kids they'll break the law and get a gun off the black market.

What about just regular criminals. Will it protect families in their home? Because there is a market that exists for people that are going to break the law and commit a couple of home invasions.

I think it would have saved those kids though. The problem is being able to limit horrific incidents like this and also giving individuals the ability to properly protect themselves and their families from criminals and other violent forces.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

You can't change culture by legislating at it. It didn't work for prohibition, it didn't work for drugs, and it won't work for guns.

Now see, this is where I can call out one thing. All of those things are illegal to own.

Making guns harder to acquire doesn't make them illegal. Nobody will go to jail owning a properly acquired gun.

So comparing it to instances where the thing was outright banned is not really a sound argument

 

[ElectricBlue187]

When is the last time there was an amendment to the constitution? I'm looking at wikipedia right now and it looks like 1789? Well, shit.

there was one in the early 90's, but passing an amendment banning guns? That's some crazy lala land shit right there

 

[Hawkian]

Maybe it's due to the fact that in 2009 (the latest figures were available) there is apparently 31,347 deaths due to firearms. Either your chart is bollocks or there's a definite increase in firearm-related deaths, either way more gun control is the answer.

That number includes suicides so it isn't wholly relevant. Regardless, the chart is still COMPLETE BULLSHIT. See my post above for details.

 

[Timedog]

Lots of places really. Stolen, bought legit, but then sold in an illegal manner.

exactly.

 

[xxracerxx]

True, and I'm not really taking a stance to defend those stats per say. Its just interesting to look at on a large scale is all.

Except the jpg is wrong.

It is 16,799 Total homicides (which includes the 12,000 firearm deaths). It is a fucking awful chart for this argument.

 

[Deified Data]

There would have to be an amendment to the constitution first. Unlike owning a firarm, driving is a privledge. Not a right.

Sounds about right, though it will likely never happen. Forget that driving is much more essential in our society than being able to own a gun.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Maybe it's due to the fact that in 2009 (the latest figures were available) there is apparently 31,347 deaths due to firearms. Either your chart is bollocks or there's a definite increase in firearm-related deaths, either way more gun control is the answer.

The chart says fire-arm homicides. The other deaths would be in the "unintentional injuries" category.

 

[coldvein]

i feel like anything would help at this point. even if we dont do ANYTHING changing the laws of which guns can be owned (handguns, assault rifles etc) couldn't we start with something basic like making everybody do a psychological evaluation before buying a gun?

 

[akira28]

Maybe a psych test, so you know you will get nailed to the wall with shards of your own fractured bones if you commit gun crime, because you're completely fit. And you can only sell to people who have taken the same test and have a gun buyer's license...

Lots of gun selling takes place second hand.

 

[Funky Papa]

Quoting myself from the other thread:

Re: Bullets vs. knives.

No, a knife is no more lethal than a bullet unless in the hands of someone EXTREMELY well trained. Knives create wide but extremely clean wounds, actual cuts. Bullets (specially rifle bullets and buckshot) create shockwaves inside your body that can compress and even rupture your internal organs.

To ilustrate the point, this is what happens when you shot a block of jelly with a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 000 buckshot: http://youtu.be/QLun92bR4BA and this is the effect of a .308 Winchester (a somewhat large bullet used by both armies and hunters) http://youtu.be/jE9xjUVcszs

Notice the massive shockwaves. Now try to imagine what would happen to your vital organs if they were caught between the buckshot and your ribcage.