GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Alright. I didn't make a comment about what you said except for the relevancy challenge, but I think we're going to keep talking past each other, so I am disengaging.
Would increased gun regulation have prevented Connecticut?
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Alright. I didn't make a comment about what you said except for the relevancy challenge, but I think we're going to keep talking past each other, so I am disengaging.
22, and 2 are in critical condition along with 1 adult. Zero deaths.
kame-sennin
Member
I'm not pro-gun, but I've never been fond of this argument. The "power of the US military" wasn't very effective in Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan. I'm not saying that people should or could lead a successful insurrection against the government, but if such a thing did occur on a large scale, it would be a very messy and drawn out affair.
They could always ban current owners from bringing those weapons outside of their homes.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Mato
Member
Hate me all you want, but when I was a teenager I played and loved GTA3 but there were times back then that I would feel a rush to drive over real pedestrians. Both gun regulation and stricter control of anything that reaches underage people should be enforced. Only things that promote virtuousness and logic should be given to children, it's for the best of humanity.
CyclopsRock
Member
I'm for tighter gun control laws, but it's not hard to acknowledge that the US is... special, in this sense. It's a whole country whose very founding and then independence was a result of the private ownership of guns. It's not a romantic myth to say that guns are interwoven with the history of the US itself. For a very long time, guns were what kept you alive in the US, and whilst that's not been the case for a long time, cultural norms like that don't disappear overnight. Culturally, the US is unique in this sense, when it comes to guns.
Dreams-Visions
Member
you asked for clarity, I provided it.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
You mean failed states?
Sorry, I wasn't asking for anything from anyone other than the person who I was replying to; and you absolutely did not provide any clarity as to what he posted.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I've gone hunting before and have shot a handful of semi-auto hanguns, revolvers (including a .357), and a shotgun. I'm a Texan for chrissake.
I think that anything other than handguns should be banned. Handguns can do a lot in terms of home defense, even though shotguns and/or rifles are better. I also believe people who already own rifles and shotguns should not have their firearms taken away post de facto since such an act would cause more trouble than it's worth.
Will this stop gun violence? No.
Will this totally prevent people from buying shotguns and rifles? Of course not.
Will it curb gun violence? I think it's worth trying.
I think that anything other than handguns should be banned. Handguns can do a lot in terms of home defense, even though shotguns and/or rifles are better. I also believe people who already own rifles and shotguns should not have their firearms taken away post de facto since such an act would cause more trouble than it's worth.
Will this stop gun violence? No.
Will this totally prevent people from buying shotguns and rifles? Of course not.
Will it curb gun violence? I think it's worth trying.
Devolution
Member
Do you live in the US? Waco? Ruby Ridge? The government doesn't fuck around. People wouldn't even be able to organize.
I love that it's like "No it's not FULLY automatic. You have to pull the trigger. Nevermind the 100 bullet magazine, and scopes and how it's built to kill more efficiently. It's not fully automatic dumbass."
Like I said, my wife was fed for several years from hunting. As such I have a profound respect for hunters. And I also think that owning a gun for protection is fine.
But semis and assualt weapons aren't really made for either hunting or home defense.
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Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
How do you think gun brokers have gotten around the ban letting automatic weapons into the US in the mid 90s? You can buy them disassembled, have them ship to a gun smith who will assemble them for around $150, and get it from them. That's how I got 2 of mine.
The irony is that automatic weapons are extremely expensive. But complete parts kits are just pennies compared to the ones already in circulation (must receive tax stamp from BATFE first). But, again, just another loop hole people found a way to get around the ban. If the government were to crack down on this I have no doubt people would find another way around it.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Yeah, I have a friend who could assemble a full-auto by the time he graduated High School. It's not the hardest thing in the world.
Um. You just made a fairly compelling argument to completely ban complete parts kits.
Man I have a friend who can build robots that shoot lasers, why are we talking about any of this?
And guns were very beneficial with the genocide on Native Americans, let's give credit where credit is due.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Yes.
That argument was completely dead the minute we let them build a nuclear weapon. At best we'd have to rely on guerrilla warfare. And conventional military armaments would be more or less useless under that scenario. And whatever way it would be fought, the casualties would be astronomical.
Mental health is of course part of the dialog. If this guy was diagnosed and seeking treatment it might not have happened.
But ease of access to guns by those broken people can't be ignored. Getting mad about hypothetically losing access to your guns is insane when we're exclusively worried about those that should not have access seem to keep getting access.
CyclopsRock
Member
gutter_trash
Banned
it's not just regulation, it's putting the breaks on gun manufacturers.
The hype of hand gun sales shot up at the end of the 19th century when they used marketing ploys to convince people that they need a gun.
as long guns continue to be produced, many of them will be leaked onto the black market, online or at shows.
Rules and laws are not enough, out right banning of certain magazine sizes and assault rifles is the only way
The hype of hand gun sales shot up at the end of the 19th century when they used marketing ploys to convince people that they need a gun.
as long guns continue to be produced, many of them will be leaked onto the black market, online or at shows.
Rules and laws are not enough, out right banning of certain magazine sizes and assault rifles is the only way
Dude Abides
Banned
Mammoth Jones
Member
Agreed. But that wasn't the premise of the thread. The question was would it have prevented this specific incident. But I completely concede to your point overall. Like I've been saying, I'm not saying we shouldn't try. Question is: Try what?
I couldn't agree more. I think we ALL want a better situation.
Dreams-Visions
Member
No, no. Parallel universe or nothing.
surely you're intelligent enough to understand that variances in culture, nation size, monoethnicity, prevalence of firearms, poverty, income and opportunity limitations, socioeconomics, and other factors disallow from simply comparing one country on paper to another, right?
...or is this conversation really so simple-minded? The Swiss have the 4th highest guns/capita rate in the world, yet extremely low gun violence rates. Why is that? Whatever reasons you're thinking of, the reality is that there are reasons, and it's clearly not a simple as "more guns means more violence; less guns mean less violence". It's more nuanced than that, as is everything else in life. And it will require more intelligent thought than posting images of Spock to counter nuanced discussion points. If our conversation is to have any meaning or value, people will have to accept that like most things, the issue isn't black/white or simple. Embryonic thought must be left outside or everyone's time will be wasted.
I would opt to distance myself from such a history rather than embrace it.
No I don't remember man, PM me if you wouldn't mind sharing again. I remember hearing about it though from a friend of ours.
And I see how #2 could be argued to a point, but I still think that it would be pretty obvious that with more guns out there, legally or illegally, more gun violence would increase.
This is one of the things that I think is really bad.
Not only do we make it easy to buy very dangerous guns, by and large it's difficult for people to get proper mental health care in many places/situations in this country. It's a terrible combination.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
It's like the idea of banning gun kits is completely out of the question to this guy. It's unreal, and hilarious.
The permit doesn't matter when the laws are set up to help you buy guns without it. That's why I believe any attempt at regulation will just be negated by loophole legislation written by the NRA and proposed by politicians.
Mercury Fred
Banned
That's no excuse for the obscene gun culture we have today. And frankly it's lazy and timid thinking that does the U.S. a huge disservice. At this point it's clear that tighter gun control is a matter of national security and it needs to be treated as such.
Devolution
Member
Well socialized medicine is bad and therapy is even more expensive than doctor visits =/.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
frankie_baby
Member
How about a national $1000 bullet tax, would get round all the 2nd amendment bull crap, guns will be next to no use if bullets cost a grand each
hahaha what?
CyclopsRock
Member
MaddenNFL64
Member
Homicides are through the roof because of guns. Have these fuckers wield a knife & try to kill people like it's nothing.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Along with stigma's attached to mental health.
Yeah, we've got a potent combo to create this situation. And until we improve our country in all of these ways we will continue to see tragedies like this.
All I know is that in Canada the homicide rate involving guns per 100,000 was 0.50 in 2010. It was 2.98 in the U.S. which is 6 times higher. Canada is probably the one country that shares more in terms of culture and values with the U.S. than any other country. However different gun laws lead to drastic homicide rates involving guns between the two countries.
Take what you want from that.
Take what you want from that.
Deified Data
Banned
This seems weirdly arbitrary.
Always-honest
Banned
Depends, maybe this is just an incident.
I said America was both large, and densely populated. I didn't say "population density" because then you are using a scientific term that
And I'd say most of those shootings probably happened east of the Mississippi, and I did factor in the ongoing drug war, the crime and poverty, and the availability of weapons. But America also has a lot of space where contributing factors can thrive, large populated, economically depressed zones are where crime and gun violence often occur. And I think that the sprawl, difficult to control and maintain, probably does contribute.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
It sounds like Canada could be invaded by the British at any second, their pants are down.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
Um. You just made a fairly compelling argument to completely ban complete parts kits.
Man I have a friend who can build robots that shoot lasers, why are we talking about any of this?
Why are you being an idiot? I gave a point as to how people get around the import gun law. Let me give you another example. The point-to-point sale of guns wasn't fully realized until after the assault weapon ban went into effect. Now it accounts for a considerable amount of gun sales. So, let's close the loop on parts kits and let's close the loop on point-to-point sales. Fine. But, people will find even more ways around it. That's my point. It doesn't mean we shouldn't be having this discussion. I'm actually against point-to-point sales. Everyone should have to go through a background check now matter where they buy a gun. And I think the ban on the import of automatic weapons should be lifted as those weapons would go only to those who could pass a background check. As it is now you can buy pretty much any parts kit from gunbrokers.com on the cheap compare to one already assembled.
CyclopsRock
Member
I said I'm for tighter gun controls. But someone suggested comparing it to other countries and I merely sought to suggest that the US is unique. Compare all you like, but in the same way you can't apply Switzerland's gun system (which practically mandates all people keep a gun at home) to other countries without also applying the cultural context of Switzerland, and likewise you cannot do the same with the US and other countries. That doesn't mean you can't learn from other countries, of course.
KingofSarus
Banned
So fucking what?
Children were harmed and their lives were in danger. Period.
Dude Abides
Banned
You made it simple-minded with your post about "no parallel universe so we can't know," so this pretentious lecture is a bit rich.
Also there's no "i" in germane.
jamesinclair
Banned
People need to realize that 30,000 americans are killed every year by guns.
Those are divided into three groups.
-Crimes of passion
-Gang/organized crime related
-Crazies with long range plans.
The last one, with the most media, is the least often to happen.
Gun laws will probably do very little to stop the third kind, because these people will go to hell and back to see their spree go through. Of course, making it harder to get a gun legally makes it much easier to stop them in their search process. It also adds deterrents. If you have to go to a crack house to get a gun vs the corner store, its just another road block.
The first is the most common, where gun laws have the most effect. These are situations where someone gets fired, and kills their boss, or gets cheated on, and kills their ex, or gets in a fight at a bar and so on and so forth.
In those cases, easy access to the gun is the number 1 issue. If the gun wasnt easy to get, by the time they could, theyd have cooled down and thought it over.
Maybe its time to try some innovative gun control.
IE: All guns have a minimum 10lb weight. Semis have a 20lb weight etc. Still easy enough to use for home protection, but makes it much, much harder to carry around for easy access. You COULD just whip out the gun and shoot, but if it weighs 10lbs, odds are, youre not carrying 24/7.
Crime of passion issue? Mostly solved.
Gang violence? Decreased, because again, no gun in back pocket.
Still 100% legal to own a gun though, so no constitutional issues.
In the case of mass shootings, it wouldnt have much of an effect, except making it harder to carry multiple guns. Two 20lb rifles? Yeah, can be done, but makes the shooter much, much less flexible.
Those are divided into three groups.
-Crimes of passion
-Gang/organized crime related
-Crazies with long range plans.
The last one, with the most media, is the least often to happen.
Gun laws will probably do very little to stop the third kind, because these people will go to hell and back to see their spree go through. Of course, making it harder to get a gun legally makes it much easier to stop them in their search process. It also adds deterrents. If you have to go to a crack house to get a gun vs the corner store, its just another road block.
The first is the most common, where gun laws have the most effect. These are situations where someone gets fired, and kills their boss, or gets cheated on, and kills their ex, or gets in a fight at a bar and so on and so forth.
In those cases, easy access to the gun is the number 1 issue. If the gun wasnt easy to get, by the time they could, theyd have cooled down and thought it over.
Maybe its time to try some innovative gun control.
IE: All guns have a minimum 10lb weight. Semis have a 20lb weight etc. Still easy enough to use for home protection, but makes it much, much harder to carry around for easy access. You COULD just whip out the gun and shoot, but if it weighs 10lbs, odds are, youre not carrying 24/7.
Crime of passion issue? Mostly solved.
Gang violence? Decreased, because again, no gun in back pocket.
Still 100% legal to own a gun though, so no constitutional issues.
In the case of mass shootings, it wouldnt have much of an effect, except making it harder to carry multiple guns. Two 20lb rifles? Yeah, can be done, but makes the shooter much, much less flexible.
People will make their own.
Incendiary
Banned
A few proposed rules:
1. Only policemen and other law enforcement personnel should be allowed carrying concealed weapon privileges.
2. Anything on the semi-auto assault rifle scale or above should be illegal to personally own unless you are government-sanctioned.
3. Anyone wishing to own hunting rifles/etc. should have their guns linked to their hunting licenses.
4. Anyone wishing to own pistols for personal safety must have an exhaustive personal background check done before sale.
1. Only policemen and other law enforcement personnel should be allowed carrying concealed weapon privileges.
2. Anything on the semi-auto assault rifle scale or above should be illegal to personally own unless you are government-sanctioned.
3. Anyone wishing to own hunting rifles/etc. should have their guns linked to their hunting licenses.
4. Anyone wishing to own pistols for personal safety must have an exhaustive personal background check done before sale.
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