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[coldfoot]

I don't think money is really the issue in that case but overall board complexity and design choices.

You don't need to add any board complexity if you just stack it on top of the southbridge and use the bus between the southbridge and APU, which is fast enough for OS tasks. That memory would be accessed like a flash drive or a USB device.

That being said, I don't know if Sony's actually going to do that. It would be smart if they did, but I don't know.

 

[Proelite]

PS4 -> Durango = PS3 -> Xbox 360?

That would be...significant.

Maybe PS3 with only 256mb of XDR ram with bandwith of 60 Gb/s, and a RSX that lived up to its hype?

Would have a PS3 with more portent RSX and 256mb of super fast XDR ram hold its own against a 512mb 360?

 

[sTeLioSco]

Maybe PS3 with only XDR ram, but a RSX that lived up to its hype?

things will be interesting.

 

[KageMaru]

Regarding DDR3 in Orbis. It doesn't really make sense having 4GB of GDDR5 in the console since it's more expensive, and waste some of it with the OS. Maybe what some 'insiders' have claimed here (some stuff were close, others were off) is exactly regarding that? Maybe 4GB of GDDR5 for games and 1 or 2GB of DDR3 for the system OS? Or maybe 2GB of GDDR5 and 1 or 2GB of DDR3?

I don't think it makes sense to add cost and complexity to the board just for a small pool of DDR3. Makes more sense to just reserve a chunk of the GDDR5 IMO.

It all depends on what Sony consider "enough".

 

[sTeLioSco]

4GB of GDDR5 will be more than enough for Sony First Party. In all likely hood, everything will be a repeat of this generation spec wise, including the Wii U being totally out classed.

Sony First Party games will look the best. Third party ports will have issues on Orbis. Just like old times.

that's enough for me if true.

 

[derFeef]

Uhm, why not let them come out first... this is a bit ridiculous.
Already making buy decisions based on rumors.

 

[Saberus]

Orbis OS will be on a thumb drive (sold separately) so not to touch the 4 gigs of ddr5

$199.99 addition.
Welcome to next gen

 

[gofreak]

Maybe PS3 with only 256mb of XDR ram with bandwith of 60 Gb/s, and a RSX that lived up to its hype?

Would have a PS3 with potent RSX and 256mb of super fast XDR ram hold its own against a 512mb 360?

The 360 offered 8 times the RAM of its predecessor.
The most popular PC RAM configuration in 2006 per Steam was 512MB.

Orbis should offer 8 times the RAM of 360.
The most popular RAM configuration today per Steam is 4GB.

Don't know if I'd characterise Orbis as having 2013's '256MB' of RAM. It sounds more like MS is going above and beyond on that front rather than Orbis underdelivering.

If you really want to draw an analogy with the prior generation, both Orbis and Durango sound a lot more like 360 than either does to PS3.

Orbis sounds like a next-gen 360 that and substitutes main memory bandwidth for eDRAM.

Durango sounds like a next-gen 360 with a less powerful GPU and more RAM.

But historical analogies, as simplistically appealing as they can be, can also be very misleading so...

 

[coldfoot]

Maybe PS3 with only 256mb of XDR ram with bandwith of 60 Gb/s, and a RSX that lived up to its hype?

Would have a PS3 with more portent RSX and 256mb of super fast XDR ram hold its own against a 512mb 360?

Difference between 256->512 is a lot different than 4GB-8GB. There are diminishing returns after a point.

 

[Baconsammy]

that's enough for me if true.

Not for me. I'd rather they played better. Been incredibly disappointed with Sony exclusives this gen outside of a few.

 

[Can Crusher]

Maybe PS3 with only 256mb of XDR ram with bandwith of 60 Gb/s, and a RSX that lived up to its hype?

Would have a PS3 with more portent RSX and 256mb of super fast XDR ram hold its own against a 512mb 360?

That would mean a more powerful CPU and a more powerful GPU. That's a big difference, if RAM amount is the single most important factor, then these cats should just get old GPU and CPU tech and slap 8 GB of GDDR5 in it.

You are describing a much more powerful system than the 360.

 

[thehypocrite]

The PS4 will have the VITA SOC & 2 or 1 GB of mobile Ram stacked. IMO.

 

[deanos]

you see Proelite, everyone here agrees with me.
it just doesn't make sense to waste some of the uber-expensive 4GB GDDR5 on the OS.
not only its a waste of good RAM, its a waste of money.

 

[statham]

3gb vs 6gb. that seems like alot.

 

[bobeth]

The PS4 will have the VITA SOC & 2 or 1 GB of mobile Ram stacked. IMO.

An exotic architecture with different sorts of ram attached to different processors? They tried that with the PS3 already, no chance in hell they'll go down this route this time around..

 

[Can Crusher]

you see Proelite, everyone here agrees with me.
it just doesn't make sense to waste some of the uber-expensive 4GB GDDR5 on the OS.
not only its a waste of good RAM, its a waste of money.

Posting about it won't turn it real man.

 

[sTeLioSco]

Posting about it won't turn it real man.

but nothing is real in this thread

 

[deanos]

Posting about it won't turn it real man.

logic makes it real.

 

[KageMaru]

you see Proelite, everyone here agrees with me.
it just doesn't make sense to waste some of the uber-expensive 4GB GDDR5 on the OS.
not only its a waste of good RAM, its a waste of money.

What GAF has taught me is that the majority's opinion rarely equals reality.

 

[Ryoku]

but nothing is real in this thread

Wait, what about me?

 

[sTeLioSco]

Would have a PS3 with more portent RSX and 256mb of super fast XDR ram hold its own against a 512mb 360?

Would have a PS3 with more portent RSX and 320mb of super fast XDR ram hold its own against a 512mb 360?

yes.

 

[statham]

logic makes it real.

 

[DieH@rd]

3gb vs 6gb. that seems like alot.

Dont worry, architectures are different. According to rumored specs:
X720 can transfer 1GB of data from RAM to APU per each frame of one 60fps game.
PS4 can transfer little more than 3.2 GB from RAM to APU per each frame of one 60fps game.

 

[Can Crusher]

logic makes it real.

Ahaha

Now that was funny!

 

[Jadedx]

4GB of GDDR5 will be more than enough for Sony First Party. In all likely hood, everything will be a repeat of this generation spec wise, including the Wii U being totally out classed.

Sony First Party games will look the best. Third party ports will have issues on Orbis. Just like old times.

I would not say that, just look at h4, imagine what 343 could do with the next xbox, not to mention all the talent they hired in the last 4 years.

 

[aegies]

Adding another kind of ram to orbis would increase mainbord/SOC complexity, to say nothing of adding another cost center to the system. It doesn't make sense to have a separate DDR pool for it. I would assume both platform holders hope to reduce their OS footprint over time, in order to give developers more memory to play with.

Deanos, you're carrying on in such a way that it doesn't seem productive to listen to what you're saying.

 

[coldfoot]

An exotic architecture with different sorts of ram attached to different processors? They tried that with the PS3 already, no chance in hell they'll go down this route this time around..

Incredible oversimpllifaction. You don't need to add the bus to the APU like the Cell and RSX did with two separate memory interfaces.
No one here bothered to comment on what was wrong with adding it to the southbridge via stacking.

 

[Can Crusher]

I would not say that, just look at h4, imagine what 343 could do with the next xbox, not to mention all the talent they hired in the last 4 years.

If he meant 1st party Sony will look better than 3rd party on Sony's hardware, I can see where he's coming from. That's with the systems being equal.

If he mean 1st party Sony will look better than 3rd party and MS 1st party, then either it's because Orbis is more powerful, or it's pure faith in devs.

But if both systems are around the same ballpark, I don't expect Sony 1st party to simply blow away everything else, because in all honestly they only did so this generation. Because they were only developing for the most powerful hardware.

 

[Psychotext]

X720 can transfer 1GB of data from RAM to APU per each frame of one 60fps game.
PS4 can transfer little more than 3.2 GB from RAM to APU per each frame of one 60fps game.

Related, I'm guessing there's a realistic limit to the amount of data the APU can actually use in a given timeframe. Unless you've got 100% efficiency, which is obviously impossible.

 

[thuway]

you see Proelite, everyone here agrees with me.
it just doesn't make sense to waste some of the uber-expensive 4GB GDDR5 on the OS.
not only its a waste of good RAM, its a waste of money.

You are wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong.

 

[Danneee]

Difference between 256->512 is a lot different than 4GB-8GB. There are diminishing returns after a point.

There's no reason developers wouldn't use the full amount of ram if they could. Don't confuse consoles with PCs where you have to have actually have a spectrum of different configurations that your software have to run on.

 

[AgentP]

Unless you're a dev working with the hardware directly you shouldn't say this so confidently.

No, he has personally spoke with every developer out there. This is getting to be nonsense. The statements of certainty are cringe worthy.

 

[bobeth]

Incredible oversimpllifaction. You don't need to add the bus to the APU like the Cell and RSX did with two separate memory interfaces.
No one here bothered to comment on what was wrong with adding it to the southbridge via stacking.

The post I replied to suggested sony adds the vita SOC to the PS4 board. Simple enough?

 

[deanos]

Deanos, you're carrying on in such a way that it doesn't seem productive to listen to what you're saying.

and pretending to be an insider makes you more productive?

 

[FrankT]

There's no reason developers wouldn't use the full amount of ram if they could. Don't confuse consoles with PCs where you have to have actually have a spectrum of different configurations that your software have to run on.

That's right. Who will test these limits first is the question.

 

[RoboPlato]

Keep in mind when talking about Orbis' RAM that it may not actually be GDDR5, it could be something else with that bandwidth. If it wonds up being something like 2.5D stacked DDR4, I wonder if they could throw in an extra 512mb or so in the stack for the OS. Is that possible? I don't know much about the manufacture of RAM configurations.

 

[coldfoot]

There's no reason developers wouldn't use the full amount of ram if they could. Don't confuse consoles with PCs where you have to have actually have a spectrum of different configurations that your software have to run on.

They'd of course use the full amount of memory, but I don't see many cases where you'd need to access that many assets so quickly that streaming wouldn't work.

 

[KageMaru]

There's no reason developers wouldn't use the full amount of ram if they could. Don't confuse consoles with PCs where you have to have actually have a spectrum of different configurations that your software have to run on.

There really is no "if", they will use all the memory available to them. They may not use it all for graphical tasks or texturing within a given frame, but even if it's for buffering, all the memory with both systems will be used.

and pretending to be an insider makes you more productive?

lol man you're way off base here.

 

[Danneee]

They'd of course use the full amount of memory, but I don't see many cases where you'd need to access that many assets so quickly that streaming wouldn't work.

Well, I guess streaming would go a lot faster if the assets are already loaded into RAM than streamed from a disc. Less pop up, bigger textures and so on. As far as I know a BR player can stream around 4.5 MB/s at 1x.

 

[aegies]

and pretending to be an insider makes you more productive?

I'm not pretending to be anything. You can believe me or not. My identity isn't a secret.

 

[coldfoot]

Well, I guess streaming would go a lot faster if the assets are already loaded into RAM than streamed from a disc. Less pop up, bigger textures and so on. As far as I know a BR player can stream around 4.5 MB/s at 1x.

You can stream at about 200MB/s from flash memory. If the PS4 has 4GB and the 360 has 8GB, the extra 4GB could be cached into flash from blu-ray, and I just can't think of a situation where you'd need the extra 4GB loaded so fast that the flash streaming speed would not be enough.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

and pretending to be an insider makes you more productive?

The guy works for Polygon
What do you do

 

[dgrdsv]

you see Proelite, everyone here agrees with me.
it just doesn't make sense to waste some of the uber-expensive 4GB GDDR5 on the OS.
not only its a waste of good RAM, its a waste of money.

This shit really needs to stop. Having a separate RAM pool of another type with separate bus to it and a separate memory controller in an APU for it is a waste of money. OS footprint is dynamic, it changes with functions you call each moment and with time it tend to get smaller with updates freeing memory for games and new OS functions. That's why logic should tell you that it should reside in the same UMA RAM pool used for everything else in the system.

Also I've no idea where these 1 GB and 2 GB for OSes come from. Full Win7 kernel takes about 1 GB. Console OS is very limited compared to PC OS and it should fit into much smaller number than that especially once you've launched a game and most of OS functions were swapped out of RAM. Also it's not like MS and SCE will have all the Kinect and PSEye routines always running even if the game doesn't use them. OSes will be modular and their memory footprints will change depending on what functions are requested by user / application.

 

[deanos]

The guy works for Polygon
What do you do

i predict.
apparently my predictions make the insiders mad.

This shit really needs to stop. Having a separate RAM pool of another type with separate bus to it and a separate memory controller in an APU for it is a waste of money. OS footprint is dynamic, it changes with functions you call each moment and with time it tend to get smaller with updates freeing memory for games and new OS functions. That's why logic should tell you that it should reside in the same UMA RAM pool used for everything else in the system.

Also I've no idea where these 1 GB and 2 GB for OSes come from. Full Win7 kernel takes about 1 GB. Console OS is very limited compared to PC OS and it should fit into much smaller number than that especially once you've launched a game and most of OS functions were swapped out of RAM. Also it's not like MS and SCE will have all the Kinect and PSEye routines always running even if the game doesn't use them. OSes will be modular and their memory footprints will change depending on what functions are requested by user / application.

if it turns out im right a thread will be opened and you will be a superstar.

 

[Baconsammy]

and pretending to be an insider makes you more productive?

Shhhhhh. Enough from you. Speaking for reasonable folks here that just want as much informed input as possible, we want to hear more from Arthur and less from you.

 

[grimshawish]

Not for me. I'd rather they played better. Been incredibly disappointed with Sony exclusives this gen outside of a few.

I suspect their output to increase next gen but we'll see what they get up to.
Sony are still Sony. From the outside looking in the PS3 had some of the best first party stuff this gen, or at least the most interesting. As well as better exclusives generally.

360 certainly has been desperately poor, I feel like around 2009 they realised they never had a crazy friend called Tyler Durden who was pushing first party all the time...it was them...they were mad, imagining what they could never do...and then Steve put the gun inside his head...and they watched the world burn...

...
...

But yeah I suppose if third parties are the superior then it hardly matters; am waiting to see how they do the jump with PC tbh; am worried some games will be mysteriously gimped, late released and not so much an on purpose thing - just not given much time.

But then this depends on how much PC sales actually matter atm. This late in a gen am hopeful third parties will still be coming to PC and at least at the mixed range of quality we have atm (or better).

 

[i-Lo]

4GB of GDDR5 will be more than enough for Sony First Party. In all likely hood, everything will be a repeat of this generation spec wise, including the Wii U being totally out classed.

Sony First Party games will look the best. Third party ports will have issues on Orbis. Just like old times.

This. I can live with everything else but this. Why oh why for all the indication that Sony has learned its lesson, all of a sudden RAM situation may undo all the good work.

People would have ONLY two reasons for buying PS4 if that's the case: First party titles and free online. Sounds like the Sony's going to be fucked when it comes to attach rates of third party titles.

WHY.png.jpg.bmp.tiff.psd.pdf.etc?

 

[Baconsammy]

I suspect their output to increase next gen but we'll see what they get up to.
Sony are still Sony. From the outside looking in the PS3 had some of the best first party stuff this gen, or at least the most interesting. As well as better exclusives generally.

360 certainly has been desperately poor, I feel like around 2009 they realised they never had a crazy friend called Tyler Durden who was pushing first party all the time...it was them...they were mad, imagining what they could never do...and then Steve put the gun inside his head...and they watched the world burn...

For a company with no exclusives, 360 sure does sell a lot of exclusives. Sony's approach this gen appeared to be "throw as much shit at the wall and pray something sticks", and very little stuck, which then left them in a battle with Microsoft for third parties, and we all know how that worked out. Hopefully next gen is a more even playing field and quality exclusives are what differentiates the two consoles. As well as services/extras. 360 was a much better gaming machine for me this gen, but possibly that will change next gen. Either way I reap the rewards of their battle.

 

[pr0cs]

People would have ONLY two reasons for buying PS4 if that's the case: First party titles and free online.

I would be surprised if history repeated itself but it's certainly possible if they make the machine different enough to the nextbox so that developers struggle with it. The software tools for the xbox are second to none and so it still will likely be the preferred system to develop for, potentially made worse if there are some difference in the hardware that takes some time in development to account for.

 

[mrklaw]

Dont worry, architectures are different. According to rumored specs:
X720 can transfer 1GB of data from RAM to APU per each frame of one 60fps game.
PS4 can transfer little more than 3.2 GB from RAM to APU per each frame of one 60fps game.

If you are playing a game like Tekken where everything is on the scream once, then this might be an advantage, but in lots of game engines there would be limitations to both approaches.

Wile PS4 might be able to transfer 3.2GB/s, you'd then be left with no space for other frames (what happens if you turn your character 180 degrees?) or for caching the level when you are moving around. Also that bandwidth would be cut by needing to write buffers out to memory and back in again (something the 720 should be able to do at least partly on the esram without impacting the main bus). So while you can transfer that, you'll rarely be able to.

You can stream at about 200MB/s from flash memory. If the PS4 has 4GB and the 360 has 8GB, the extra 4GB could be cached into flash from blu-ray, and I just can't think of a situation where you'd need the extra 4GB loaded so fast that the flash streaming speed would not be enough.

This is probably the real limiting factor for streaming engines. At some point you have to pull from disc, and that speed (combined with the fastest speed a player can move in the game) will limit how much memory you can use for the immediate world around you.