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[gofreak]

edram covering for potential bandwidth bottleneck?

One wonders why graphic cards don't do something similar... :/

Probably because the amount of eDRAM required to do this in a way that would offer consistent performance transparently to the application is still too high.

In a closed box you can rely on programmer co-operation. It doesn't have to be transparent.

No. I find it hard to believe that xbox 3 will be lumbered with slow memory.

If they put the equivalent cost/complexity of GDDR5 in and take away up to 2GB of it for the OS, devs will kick up a massive fuss.

A lot of the noises about Durango's memory system suggest that quite early on they assumed they'd have to go with slower memory in order to have the capacity they want for the OS. It may have turned out latterly that they need a little less memory than they might have initially thought (1.5GB? 1GB?) but back when decisions were being made around hardware I'm guessing it was looking more like 1.5-2GB ... and in that scenario, 4GB of another type of memory just wouldn't work well for them. So it's a tradeoff.

 

[mrklaw]

maths.

what situation do you think needs a buffer output of >180GB/s? Can't see that happening. Framebuffer is a fraction of that, multi-pass stuff might be a wash *if* you can keep it in edram - thats the big question. How much edram and how transparant is it to developers?

 

[Ashes]

Probably because the amount of eDRAM required to do this in a way that would offer consistent performance transparently to the application is still too high.

In a closed box you can rely on programmer co-operation. It doesn't have to be transparent.



If they put the equivalent cost/complexity of GDDR5 in and take away up to 2GB of it for the OS, devs will kick up a massive fuss.

A lot of the noises about Durango's memory system suggest that quite early on they assumed they'd have to go with slower memory in order to have the capacity they want for the OS. It may have turned out latterly that they need a little less memory than they might have initially thought (1.5GB? 1GB?) but back when decisions were being made around hardware I'm guessing it was looking more like 1.5-2GB ... and in that scenario, 4GB of another type of memory just wouldn't work well for them. So it's a tradeoff.

Hmm... interesting... quite the pickle.

 

[GarthVaderUK]

Which console this gen had better RAM?

 

[Ashes]

Which console this gen had better RAM?

Depends on who you ask. I guess more multiplatform developers have been vocal about the ps3's split. X360 is unified.

edit: XDR in the PS3 is by far and away in its own league.

 

[gofreak]

what situation do you think needs a buffer output of >180GB/s?

Well, I dunno. It does seem like an awfully high number.

But I was thinking of 180-x GB/s - where x is your pipeline input requirement.

Maybe we should concretise with some examples.

For example, if your pipeline input requirement = 70GB/s and your buffer output requirement <= 110GB/s : Orbis should do better

If your pipeline input requirement is 40GB/s and your buffer output requirement is >140GB/s : Durango should do better

If your pipeline input requirement is 20GB/s and your buffer output requirement is 150GB/s there probably wouldn't be much between them.

And so on and so on. I was trying to codify the first two types of situation into an equation.

You can judge how common it's likely to be that more games will fall into one or other category of requirements. I've no idea. Maybe it'll be 50:50 or maybe one setup will do better more than the other.

* and when I talk about 'doing better' in this post, I mean the bandwidth setups. Other components in the system could end up being the bound on performance in different individual cases but I'm just looking at bandwidth in isolation.

 

[Jadedx]

Looking at the old roadmap I now think MS probably will go with DDR4 since that was what they were targetting. Also MS will not need 1.5 to 2 gb of ram for the os, if MS can do all they are doing now with 32 megs do people really think they are going to use 2gb of data? Even with Kinect 2 taking up it's own space MS will not use more than 1gb.

 

[Ashes]

8gb will consume more power than 4gb and generate more heat too.

 

[thuway]

8gb will consume more power than 4gb and generate more heat too.

You are confused. 8 GB DDR3 is no where near the heat consumed by 4 GB GDDR5. 4 GB DRR5 is assuredly going to draw 40 watts.

 

[coldfoot]

You are confused. 8 GB DDR3 is no where near the heat consumed by 4 GB GDDR5. 4 GB DRR5 is assuredly going to draw 40 watts.

Which process node, and are you assuming 8x4Gbit configuration?

 

[Jadedx]

You are confused. 8 GB DDR3 is no where near the heat consumed by 4 GB GDDR5. 4 GB DRR5 is assuredly going to draw 40 watts.

And DDR4 is said to be more efficient and just as cheap as ddr3.

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

[you know next-gen is coming when we talk about unconfirmed tech we know nothing about.

 

[blu]

And DDR4 is said to be more efficient and just as cheap as ddr3.

It won't be as cheap as ddr3 until production ramps up.

 

[Ashes]

You are confused. 8 GB DDR3 is no where near the heat consumed by 4 GB GDDR5. 4 GB DRR5 is assuredly going to draw 40 watts.

Interesting...

The only thing I've found is this:

http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/gddr5/Pages/gddr5.aspx#2

Not exactly what we are talking about though... would like to see more relevant info...

edit: hey, it's got a general overview page too...

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

ssd prices seems to be dropping like a rock. Alot faster than traditional hdd anyways which stay the same over generation.

4gb gddr5 + ssd hardrive as standard.

It actually makes economic sense having an ssd hdd.

throw in a 60-120gb ssd as standard and add an extra empty ssd slot for expansion.

 

[DBT85]

ssd prices seems to be dropping like a rock. Alot faster than traditional hdd anyways which stay the same over generation.

4gb gddr5 + ssd hardrive as standard.

It actually makes economic sense having an ssd hdd.

throw in a 60-120gb ssd as standard and add an extra empty ssd slot for expansion.

Traditional HDDs might have a fairly static price but capacity continues to go up. It actually gets to a stage where buying smaller HDDs becomes more expensive because there is less demand for them.

Could you further explain why including an SSD makes economic sense? I'm not seeing it.

Having 8/16 GB of Flash makes sense because it allows for an HDDless SKU.

Certainly. That is different to dropping in 60-120GB though. I'd love to see an SKU with no HDD built in so I can save the little money and buy my own.

 

[coldfoot]

Having 8/16 GB of Flash makes sense because it allows for an HDDless SKU.

 

[The Delanator]

. It actually gets to a stage where buying smaller HDDs becomes more expensive because there is less demand for them.

That's not how economics work.

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

Traditional HDDs might have a fairly static price but capacity continues to go up. It actually gets to a stage where buying smaller HDDs becomes more expensive because there is less demand for them.

Could you further explain why including an SSD makes economic sense? I'm not seeing it.



Certainly. That is different to dropping in 60-120GB though. I'd love to see an SKU with no HDD built in so I can save the little money and buy my own.

I dont know much about ssd..to be honest.

but i figure the pricing of them will work like memory stick. Ie drop to next to nothing.

In 2 to 3 years when ps4/720 need to reach mainstream pricing, a 120gb ssd disk will cost next to nothing.

Compare that to hdd which like you noted never really drops in price(although you get more gbs for the same price). Which in itself goes completely against the general philosophy of the console. ie take a hit in the beginning and then make it back later on with the massmarket.

 

[MikeE21286]

Quesiton with the RAM here (noob question I'm sure) but 8GB or DDR3 RAM seems like a small amount from a cost perspective --- I guess small is relative, since I don't know the total cost of all the components...

I mean I have 12GB DDR3 RAM in my PC at home. 8 GB DDR3 costs approx. $45.

Is the DDR3 that is in the 720/Durango supposedly much more different or expensive?

 

[DBT85]

That's not how economics work.

Then explain it. Don't just pop in with 5 words and then vanish.

 

[The Delanator]

Then explain it. Don't just pop in with 5 words and then vanish.

High demand means they can charge a higher price. If supply is limited, they can charge a higher price. Why charge more if nobody wants it?

I agree that it doesn't make sense to put an SSD in. Having a fast/hybrid drive would likely yield sufficient performance, considering Microsoft's history with allowing full game installs.

 

[phosphor112]

That's not how economics work.

It doesn't, but less companies make smaller HDD's, thus requiring someone to produce them, thus increasing costs.

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

High demand means they can charge a higher price. If supply is limited, they can charge a higher price. Why charge more if nobody wants it?

I agree that it doesn't make sense to put an SSD in. Having a fast/hybrid drive would likely yield sufficient performance, considering Microsoft's history with allowing full game installs.

high demand as in massmarket also means you can produce greater quanteties, which inturn means you make things cheaper by massproducing them.

 

[DBT85]

High demand means they can charge a higher price. If supply is limited, they can charge a higher price. Why charge more if nobody wants it?

High demand also means that more people are making them and that people are buying them in bulk (eg a console manufacturer asking for 10 million a year, Dell asking for 5 million a year, etc etc) and so they get a crazy discount.

When everyone else is using a 500GB drive, finding a source for a 60GB drive will cost you more because barely anyone is making them so the few that do can charge what they like.

 

[systemfehler]

Quesiton with the RAM here (noob question I'm sure) but 8GB or DDR3 RAM seems like a small amount from a cost perspective --- I guess small is relative, since I don't know the total cost of all the components...

I mean I have 12GB DDR3 RAM in my PC at home. 8 GB DDR3 costs approx. $45.

Is the DDR3 that is in the 720/Durango supposedly much more different or expensive?

No the RAM itself is not more expensive but the wiring and board logic increases the complexity and size of the board so you can't just add more "parts" even though they are cheap.

 

[higherARC05]

From what I seen in these rumors is that the actual difference in ram speed isnt as dramatic as seen. Been told that the difference is only a "bit". Take that as you will.

 

[El_Chino]

So basically the deciding factor between Obris and Durango is the RAM and its' bandwidth while both GPUs being similar ?

 

[gundamkyoukai]

From what I seen in these rumors is that the actual difference in ram speed isnt as dramatic as seen. Been told that the difference is only a "bit". Take that as you will.

Most likely due to what MS using to help the DDR3 which is to be expect .
Still both set up going to have it's advantages and disadvantages .
Wish we knew the amount of esram MS using to help the DDR3 which make things a whole lot easier to figure out .

 

[Can Crusher]

So basically the deciding factor between Obris and Durango is the RAM and its' bandwidth while both GPUs being similar ?

No. The designs of the CPUs/GPUs/Memory config will all be different.

 

[AgentP]

From what I seen in these rumors is that the actual difference in ram speed isnt as dramatic as seen. Been told that the difference is only a "bit". Take that as you will.

Are you getting your info from these threads or is someone with real insider info telling you? If you are reading the same info the rest of are, then the answer is "depends".

GDDR5 can be much higher bandwidth than DDR3/4 (200GB/s vs 60-90GB/s). The DDR gets paired with eDRAM to offset the low bandwidth DDR.

If the difference between DDR3/4 and GDDR5 was a "bit", then Sony would use the cheaper DDR solution too.

 

[i-Lo]

Are you getting your info from these threads or is someone with real insider info telling you? If you are reading the same info the rest of are, then the answer is "depends".

GDDR5 can be much higher bandwidth than DDR3/4 (200GB/s vs 60-90GB/s). The DDR gets paired with eDRAM to offset the low bandwidth DDR.

If the difference between DDR3/4 and GDDR5 was a "bit", then Sony would use the cheaper DDR solution too.

Two words: Damage control. Even at this stage. I am pretty sure you're beginning to sense it as well.

 

[jaypah]

Two words: Damage control. Even at this stage. I am pretty sure you're beginning to sense it as well.

From which direction?

 

[phosphor112]

From which direction?

I think he means that guy is damage controlling on MS's end. Downplaying the significance of GDDR5.

 

[i-Lo]

I think he means that guy is damage controlling on MS's end. Downplaying the significance of GDDR5.

Yea, I know arc05 from another forum and his reputation is.... to put it gently, leans towards MS. After all you're not going to get Halo on a non-MS platform.

 

[Perkel]

Two words: Damage control. Even at this stage. I am pretty sure you're beginning to sense it as well.

That's ridiculous to say. Both choices have their up and downsides and this is still very much just unknown.

I would say that DDR3 only for new gen where amount of everything on screen will only rise is bad design because it will just lack bandwidth to really use that amount of ram for bigger scale. Also we don't know if Sony will use other ram for OS.

Maybe MS will go full bonkers with multitasking and all that side stuff and will leave only 6GB for games.

To much unknown to much speculation to say something like that on both ends,

 

[Can Crusher]

Yea, I know arc05 from another forum and his reputation is.... to put it gently, leans towards MS. After all you're not going to get Halo on a non-MS platform.

If only unbiased posters were allowed to have an opinion, this thread would be almost empty. And you wouldn't be replying to anybody.

Don't see the point in starting up shit, with who's biased or not.

 

[i-Lo]

That's ridiculous to say. Both choices have their up and downsides and this is still very much just unknown.

I would say that DDR3 only for new gen where amount of everything on screen will only rise is bad design because it will just lack bandwidth to really use that amount of ram for bigger scale. Also we don't know if Sony will use other ram for OS.

Maybe MS will go full bonkers with multitasking and all that side stuff and will leave only 6GB for games.

To much unknown to much speculation to say something like that.

To acknowledge advantages and disadvantages is one thing but when people try to steer conversation in one direction to either disavow or downplay either advantages or disadvantages, then you run into issues and realise these individuals are playing for different teams and pretty much do the job of PRs.

If only unbiased posters were allowed to have an opinion, this thread would be almost empty. And you wouldn't be replying to anybody.

Don't see the point in starting up shit, with who's biased or not.

Fair point. Where'd be the spice of life in that without some crap starting... Guess I'm more vested in PS like I was for Xbox during PS2 days because of how much they've had to struggle this gen due to arrogance and certain poor decisions at the beginning of this gen. At the end of the day, I, along with many others will end up buying both consoles. For people who won't or can't, their hope is that they don't screwed on ports.

 

[ekim]

I love that thread.

 

[Perkel]

If only unbiased posters were allowed to have an opinion, this thread would be almost empty. And you wouldn't be replying to anybody.

Don't see the point in starting up shit, with who's biased or not.

Bias fuel for forums ? That is true to some places but i believe technical discussion could be continued without bias.

 

[Dennis]

If only unbiased posters were allowed to have an opinion, this thread would be almost empty. And you wouldn't be replying to anybody.

Don't see the point in starting up shit, with who's biased or not.

I don't really think it is biased to be excited about the new 4GB GDDR5-wielding PS4 aka the God console.

 

[Can Crusher]

Bias fuel for forums ? That is true to some places but i believe technical discussion could be continued without bias.

The point is that, if you disagree then disagree. If you are actually bothered by it, ignore it.

Doesn't make sense to confront bias. It's like asking for a mexican standoff.

I don't really think it is biased to be excited about the new 4GB GDDR5-wielding PS4 aka the God console.

I can see you coming crazy eyes.

Fair point. Where'd be the spice of life in that without some crap starting... Guess I'm more vested in PS like I was for Xbox during PS2 days because of how much they've had to struggle this gen due to arrogance and certain poor decisions at the beginning of this gen. At the end of the day, I, along with many others will end up buying both consoles. For people who won't or can't, their hope is that they don't screwed on ports.

Everybody loves an underdog.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

If only unbiased posters were allowed to have an opinion, this thread would be almost empty. And you wouldn't be replying to anybody.

Don't see the point in starting up shit, with who's biased or not.

I don't think anyone would care if was just his opinion but when he said been told it look like he had inside info which is what AgentP ask him .
When it comes to getting inside info \ specs the more unbiased the person the better .
Plus it's good to know if he really has info or not .

 

[Boss Man]

So what's it looking like now?

Orbis: ~3.5GB @176GB/S
Durango: ~5.5GB @68GB/S [32MB @102GB/S]

Correct?

The question for me is, why does Sony want its RAM to be that fast? It seems sort of outlying, like if we could figure out the answer to this we might know something more about the system/next-gen.

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

Where did you get 176GB/sec from?

 

[RoboPlato]

I don't really think it is biased to be excited about the new 4GB GDDR5-wielding PS4 aka the God console.

It's so weird to see Dennis exited about a console.

Where did you get 176GB/sec from?

BruceLeeRoy's source

 

[DieH@rd]

Where did you get 176GB/sec from?

Recent rumors about finalizing Orbis spec. They supposedly lowered bandwith to 176 GB/s, its still 2.9GB for one frame of 60fps game. More than enough.

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

BruceLeeRoy's source

Since when did he have sources?

 

[statham]

So what's it looking like now?

Orbis: ~3.5GB @176GB/S
Durango: ~5.5GB @68GB/S [32MB @102GB/S]

Correct?

The question for me is, why does Sony want its RAM to be that fast? It seems sort of outlying, like if we could figure out the answer to this we might know something more about the system/next-gen.

3D

 

[Boss Man]

BruceLeeRoy's source

Also, it seems logical if their target was 192GB/S.


Either way, you're apparently looking at ~3GB per frame at 60FPS.

No it would be 3.2GB a frame at 60FPS with 192GB/s

taking it down to 176GB/s only brought it down to 2.933GB a frame at 60FPS.

And that seems like a hell of a lot, and is probably worth talking about.