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[phosphor112]

Adding Cell, RSX, and PS3's RAM would give the Orbis a bigger, more complex motherboard and change its power and cooling requirements.

You don't need to add the RSX or XDR/GDDR3 into it.

Those 2 PE's would literally plug straight into the AMD APU and it can run off of shared memory external to the PE's.

Anyway, speaking of which...

those 4 CU's, are they attached to the GPU? Or are they somehow integrated into the APU?

 

[tzare]

Because tzare says

Or just because you say people won't buy ps4/720 with those specs that is the ultimate truth
You can check PS3's early sales to see how well an expensive console performs.
Not that i don't want better specs, but these are difficult times and market is changing. So reasonable specs at a reasonable price plus extra services(entertaintment hub) is probably the way to go.

 

[Racer30]

why should I give a shit what Balmer says when they keep putting up stuff that gets destroyed because of MARKETING hell they mentioned the Zune in the video I owned both versions of he Zune and where is it now? this means NOTHING!

Lets get this straight; are you arguing that you could not get a cheaper phone than the Iphone with the same functionality?

 

[Racer30]

Or just because you say people won't buy ps4/720 with those specs that is the ultimate truth
You can check PS3's early sales to see how well an expensive console performs.
Not that i don't want better specs, but these are difficult times and market is changing. So reasonable specs ant a reasonable price plus extra services(entertaintment hub) is probably the way to go.

Please read before post. And I dont say I speak the ultimate truth, but I back it up with arguments thats the difference.

 

[Takuya]

You don't need to add the RSX or XDR/GDDR3 into it.

Those 2 PE's would literally plug straight into the AMD APU and it can run off of shared memory external to the PE's.

Anyway, speaking of which...

those 4 CU's, are they attached to the GPU? Or are they somehow integrated into the APU?

I wonder what the viability of this is, if Sony decides to do something similar with the OS as they did with the Vita. Speaking of being able to switch in and out of a game, and pause it at any given point, to browse the OS and whatnot, and have multiple apps open/available at the same time. And this would probably have to work with PS3 emulation as well without hindering the system's capability/performance in the OS.

 

[Perkel]

I see, so your problem is you think the Oculus requires some super powered behemoth 5flops to pull off? It doesn't, a lot of what the Oculus is is just the right pairing of visual equipment and accelerometers. For a jury-rigged offering on the same page but without that field of view, cast your eyes over this offering:
http://www.iwaggle3d.com/2012/05/datura-hmz-t1-personal-3d-viewer-2nd.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l1Bq-9zWvc

Thats with the PS3, current gen tech. The PS4 looking to go 6x-8x beyond, and you dont think it wouldnt be able to support the Rift? No, what Sony is rightfully hesitant about is the theoretical "Buy this $450 console, now buy this $300 headset" market.

Youre getting very confused with GAF tech thread posters and CES tech show aficionados with the rest of the population of Earth. One set is a very slim minority!

Two things.

1. Rift isn't Sony tech so why would they support it ? If anything they would modify their hmz.
2. 60fps with V-sync for each eye. 120 fps... Some games like GT5 in some places reach 120fps in 3D mode but 120 won't be anywhere near standard next gen.

 

[Mr. MondayNight]

Lets get this straight; are you arguing that you could not get a cheaper phone than the Iphone with the same functionality?

No first I said cell phones serve a special purpose that people are willing to pay for that a game console doesn't have and you started talking about specifically the iphone....

 

[tzare]

Please read before post. And I dont say I speak the ultimate truth, but I back it up with arguments thats the difference.

well, some arguments are quite debatable i would say. I backup my argument with ps3's early performance.

 

[Perkel]

I wonder what the viability of this is, if Sony decides to do something similar with the OS as they did with the Vita. Speaking of being able to switch in and out of a game, and pause it at any given point, to browse the OS and whatnot, and have multiple apps open/available at the same time. And this would probably have to work with PS3 emulation as well without hindering the system's capability/performance in the OS.

GDDR 5 allows that and it is already used in Vita.

 

[Takuya]

GDDR 5 allows that and it is already used in Vita.

Emulating PSP/PS1 is far different than emulating PS3.

 

[Racer30]

No first I said cell phones serve a special purpose that people are willing to pay for that a game console doesn't have and you started talking about specifically the iphone....

Jeez. Lets just lay it to rest right there.

 

[Perkel]

Emulating PSP/PS1 is far different than emulating PS3.

I don't talk about emulation.

OS shrinking

As of emulation, Sony currently have 2 emulators. Psp for Vita and Ps2 for Ps3.

Orbis probably won't have any emulation at start. Definetely not Ps3 since that would be to much hard work to meet console release deadline.

Ps2 emulator is also hard to deal since it was written for completely different architecture (customized power pc)

I expect them to have ps1 and ps2 emulation within year and ps3 about 3~4 years.

 

[nib95]

What's even funnier is when you read the posts in this thread when people was saying that we will be lucky if we even get 2GB of Ram in Next Gen Consoles


Crytek wants 8GB of RAM in next-gen consoles


NeoGaf lol

Lol, most people thought 2 gigs reading that first page, or lucky to get 4gb. Guess we got lucky then!

 

[KAL2006]

Sony consoles usually have a new feature and/or gimmick as well as power.

PS1 - CD player
PS2 - DVD player
PSP - UMD player and portable media device
PS3 - Bluray player and Sixaxis
Vita - back touch

So all these consoles had one thing in common that they have a significant boost in power in comparison to previous generation. Secondly they all provide a new video media format (UMD format the only one flopping) excluding Vita. So what will the PS4 provide that is new besides more power to get the attention of the casuals. From the leaks we have the following.

Evolved Dualshock
Move
Dual Camera

Not sure if Move and Dual Camera will be packaged with PS4. I am guessing its a combination of Kinect and Move. Finally I have no idea what try mean by evolved Dualshock, perhaps it is just a redesign or maybe it has other features.

 

[szaromir]

Some of their games didn't sell well, but a lot of them did. Perhaps they just need to be more selective where they put large resources (and I think that trend has already started). I wouldn't even want to think what would be of PS3 if they didn't put so much effort into so many of these games. Yes, they didn't all sell well, but they captured a lot of headlines with "best this, best that" which must have helped reverse all the negativity around the machine.

Then this time around they should make the machine itself more exciting, as trying to sell games on graphics and production values is an ever riskier endeavour.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

It will be more expensive than in PS3, because it will be faster.

No it won't just being faster don't mean it going to be more expensive .
The tech is mature and it being mass produce 2 things that PS3 did not have .
Your points are all over the place to tell the truth .

Then this time around they should make the machine itself more exciting, as trying to sell games on graphics and production values is an ever riskier endeavour.

Games are not going to start costing 3 or 4 times the amount to make so making AAA games not going to be that riskier unless you can't budget .
With DD becoming bigger they will make even more money off first party sales to help recover budget .
I want the machine to be more exciting yes but you need games to push hardware .

 

[systemfehler]

I don't talk about emulation.

OS shrinking

Every decent OS should be able to do that without a problem. A Android phone basicly does that all the time with often less than 512MB rather slow memory compared to the PS4. You can play a game and still accept and incoming call while resuming your game afterwards.

The rumoured 16GB flash would be perfect for a fast taks/context switching. It is just a matter on how serious Sony treats the OS and how much time and effort they are willing to invest. With 16GB you could probably even have a "save state" for most games so you can resume the game even when you turn the console off.

Basicly:

game running - mini OS - fast switching (game "stays" in GDDR5)
game running - full OS - slower switching (game "stays" in flash memory aka swap file)

 

[itsgreen]

Two things.

1. Rift isn't Sony tech so why would they support it ? If anything they would modify their hmz.
2. 60fps with V-sync for each eye. 120 fps... Some games like GT5 in some places reach 120fps in 3D mode but 120 won't be anywhere near standard next gen.

One thing.

1. Rift doesn't separate frames for each eye. It uses side by side... so 60fps V-sync is good.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Sony consoles usually have a new feature and/or gimmick as well as power.

PS1 - CD player
PS2 - DVD player
PSP - UMD player and portable media device
PS3 - Bluray player and Sixaxis
Vita - back touch

So all these consoles had one thing in common that they have a significant boost in power in comparison to previous generation. Secondly they all provide a new video media format (UMD format the only one flopping) excluding Vita. So what will the PS4 provide that is new besides more power to get the attention of the casuals. From the leaks we have the following.

Evolved Dualshock
Move
Dual Camera

Not sure if Move and Dual Camera will be packaged with PS4. I am guessing its a combination of Kinect and Move. Finally I have no idea what try mean by evolved Dualshock, perhaps it is just a redesign or maybe it has other features.

Sony lives on newer technology and have always sold playstation products based on them. When the gimmick fails, the product fails. When it succeeds, the product succeeds.

 

[DieH@rd]

Two things.

1. Rift isn't Sony tech so why would they support it ? If anything they would modify their hmz.
2. 60fps with V-sync for each eye. 120 fps... Some games like GT5 in some places reach 120fps in 3D mode but 120 won't be anywhere near standard next gen.

Rift does not require 120hz. Its display renders 60FPS SBS picture, and each eye recives one half of that image directly via lenses [no crosstalk, ghosting, dimming, etc].

 

[Perkel]

Sony consoles usually have a new feature and/or gimmick as well as power.

PS1 - CD player
PS2 - DVD player
PSP - UMD player and portable media device
PS3 - Bluray player and Sixaxis
Vita - back touch

So all these consoles had one thing in common that they have a significant boost in power in comparison to previous generation. Secondly they all provide a new video media format (UMD format the only one flopping) excluding Vita. So what will the PS4 provide that is new besides more power to get the attention of the casuals. From the leaks we have the following.

Evolved Dualshock
Move
Dual Camera

Not sure if Move and Dual Camera will be packaged with PS4. I am guessing its a combination of Kinect and Move. Finally I have no idea what try mean by evolved Dualshock, perhaps it is just a redesign or maybe it has other features.

Low price and ton of exclusives which are currently produced in their massive dev studio rooster.

They did their homework this gen. At start of PS3 their 1st party studios were aside from PD weak. They nought a lot of people increased their owned studio sizes. Most of their big studios now have 2 teams which work on two different games.

If anything this gen proved Is that console loyalty is worth jack shit. Either you have some crazy thing which will capture fickle people or you have strong portfolio of games.

Rift does not require 120hz. Its display renders 60FPS SBS picture, and each eye recives one half of that image directly via lenses [no crosstalk, ghosting, dimming, etc].

Still 60 fps still won't be standard.

 

[daveo42]

You don't need to add the RSX or XDR/GDDR3 into it.

Those 2 PE's would literally plug straight into the AMD APU and it can run off of shared memory external to the PE's.

Anyway, speaking of which...

those 4 CU's, are they attached to the GPU? Or are they somehow integrated into the APU?

They are supposed to be somewhere between the GPU and APU I think. At least based on what I've seen so far.

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

I wish they would at least use gcn 2 gpus. They are already finished an should provide good yields. Plus they offer more flops for the same power draw. The flops should be more efficient as well and more HSA capable. It doesn't make sense for Sony using 7xxx series other then lowering cost by a little bit.

 

[UrbanRats]

Low price and ton of exclusives which are currently produced in their massive dev studio rooster.

They did their homework this gen. At start of PS3 their 1st party studios were aside from PD weak. They nought a lot of people increased their owned studio sizes. Most of their big studios now have 2 teams which work on two different games.

If anything this gen proved Is that console loyalty is worth jack shit. Either you have some crazy thing which will capture fickle people or you have strong portfolio of games.

I clearly remember someone at Sony(Tretton?) saying that this generation taught them that 3rd party exclusives are too complicated to hold, and to build a strong first party roster, is the best move, in the long run.
Can't say i disagree, as a customer, if i had to buy a console d1 i'd go with either Sony or Nintendo exactly because of that roster they built.

 

[Can Crusher]

I wish they would at least use gcn 2 gpus. They are already finished an should provide good yields. Plus they offer more flops for the same power draw. The flops should be more efficient as well and more HSA capable. It doesn't make sense for Sony using 7xxx series other then lowering cost by a little bit.

The rumor is Durango is using a GCN 2 variant.

 

[kuroshiki]

I wish they would at least use gcn 2 gpus. They are already finished an should provide good yields. Plus they offer more flops for the same power draw. The flops should be more efficient as well and more HSA capable. It doesn't make sense for Sony using 7xxx series other then lowering cost by a little bit.

Wait. Explain please. You put dual GPUs and it still draws just as much as 1 GPU power with 2X performance?

I'm not GPU expert but how is it possible?

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Wait. Explain please. You put dual GPUs and it still draws just as much as 1 GPU power with 2X performance?

I'm not GPU expert but how is it possible?

gcn2, not 2 gcn gpus.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

Because tzare says

Because the console market has said that, you fucking idiot. Not long ago, Sony attempted to release an expensive system, packed with a blu-ray player, by way of flashing its (supposed) power and features around, and was left eating the dust of a console that was at best a tiny bump up from its predecessor in terms of power and has had a hell of a time getting into an even race with a similar but cheaper console that actually lacked one key big feature. Granted that the Wii had its hook, but it really shouldn't be this fucking hard to understand why people have a hard time stomaching this genial idea you (and at one point, Sony) have of releasing an expensive console for the sake of bells and whistles.

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

I wish this idea that a console needs a gimmick to succeed would end. Just because Nintendo found lightning in a bottle with the Wii doesn't mean every console needs to achieve some gimmick of their own. In fact one could argue that although Nintendo had great success with the Wii, it also further distanced themselves from 3rd parties and they are now feeling that effect with the Wii U. Speaking of which, how is that gimmick working out? Same goes for Kinect and the Move controller, they generate a great deal of interest up front, but ultimately people want a simple input device and great games, as do developers.

I don't get why PC gaming can go as long as it has with a Keyboard and Mouse, and yet a console needs a gimmick every 6 years.

 

[Perkel]

I clearly remember someone at Sony(Tretton?) saying that this generation taught them that 3rd party exclusives are too complicated to hold, and to build a strong first party roster, is the best move, in the long run.
Can't say i disagree, as a customer, if i had to buy a console d1 i'd go with either Sony or Nintendo exactly because of that roster they built.

They also changed how Japan studios works since those were unproduductive (not releasing AAA games) and stil they have second party like QD or isomniac.

 

[nib95]

I wish they would at least use gcn 2 gpus. They are already finished an should provide good yields. Plus they offer more flops for the same power draw. The flops should be more efficient as well and more HSA capable. It doesn't make sense for Sony using 7xxx series other then lowering cost by a little bit.

Agreed. GCN 2 should have been a lock.

 

[szaromir]

Games are not going to start costing 3 or 4 times the amount to make so making AAA games not going to be that riskier unless you can't budget .
With DD becoming bigger they will make even more money off first party sales to help recover budget .
I want the machine to be more exciting yes but you need games to push hardware .

The starting point of the discussion was that Sony 1st party games would cream on PC games even 5 years after Orbis' launch. For that to be the case, they would need to spend enormous amounts of money to outdo what other devs will be doing.

Alternatively, you can ask Yoshida what's the expected ROI for The Last Guardian.

 

[iamshadowlark]

The rumor is Durango is using a GCN 2 variant.

Which one? Vgleaks specs show GCN numbers.

 

[Jhriad]

You don't need to add the RSX or XDR/GDDR3 into it.

Those 2 PE's would literally plug straight into the AMD APU and it can run off of shared memory external to the PE's.

I really want to believe this will happen. Sadly this rumor killed my hopes for BC.

 

[Can Crusher]

Which one? Vgleaks specs show GCN numbers.

All Vg leaks say is that it's a 1.2 Tflop GPU with 12 shader cores.

There's nothing else on the gpu.

 

[onQ123]

Emulating PSP/PS1 is far different than emulating PS3.

I think PS3 Emulation could be just as easy as PSP/PS1 as long as the power is there.


Wii/Gamecube is pretty easy to emulate using AMD CPU's & they have IBM CPU's so that tells you that AMD CPU's are not going to have too hard of a time running Code just because it was made for a IBM CPU ( I'm talking about the PPU) you just translate that code into code that the AMD CPU can read & that's that,

on to the compute codes that was processed by the 6 SPE's give that to the 4 CU's with over 400 GFLOPS of computing power & that's done.



& RSX was pretty much a standard PC GPU so it shouldn't be any problems running the Graphical codes on a newer AMD GPU when Sony know what's needed in the parts to process the codes that was written for PS3 games.


& from what I head & seen PSP emulation is pretty much flawless on PS Vita without using any of the PSP parts.

 

[phosphor112]

I really want to believe this will happen. Sadly this rumor killed my hopes for BC.

Why would it? Those CU's could easily be used as SIMD processors until those PE's get produced. Then again, maybe I'm just dreaming.

It's the same thing for GDDR5, I don't think they'll have that in the final console. I Think it'll be stacked DDR4.

 

[mrklaw]

Two things.

1. Rift isn't Sony tech so why would they support it ? If anything they would modify their hmz.
2. 60fps with V-sync for each eye. 120 fps... Some games like GT5 in some places reach 120fps in 3D mode but 120 won't be anywhere near standard next gen.

1. Logitech G27 isn't Sony tech but it has dedicated support in GT5, a Sony game (and many other racing games)

 

[Perkel]

1. Logitech G27 isn't Sony tech but it has dedicated support in GT5, a Sony game (and many other racing games)

I know that and i have G25. VR is not just simple change like support for whell.

 

[KAL2006]

How farfethed is it that the PS4 will have backwards comparability via emulation. I remember on the Vita thread before it was released, many argued PSP emulation would not be possible because of how weird the PSP architecture is and how different the hardware is to PSP.

 

[iamshadowlark]

All Vg leaks say is that it's a 1.2 Tflop GPU with 12 shader cores.

There's nothing else on the gpu.

Look harder my friend.

GPU:

- custom D3D11.1 class 800-MHz graphics processor

- 12 shader cores providing a total of 768 threads

- each thread can perform one scalar multiplication and addition operation (MADD) per clock cycle

- at peak performance, the GPU can effectively issue 1.2 trillion floating-point operations per second

High-fidelity Natural User Interface (NUI) sensor is always present

A GCN CU is capable of 64 threads a cycle.

12 Shader cores(CUs) * 64 threads(work groups) = 768 threads

http://devgurus.amd.com/thread/159171

http://techreport.com/review/22192/amd-radeon-hd-7970-graphics-processor/3

 

[btkadams]

How farfethed is it that the PS4 will have backwards comparability via emulation. I remember on the Vita thread before it was released, many argued PSP emulation would not be possible because of how weird the PSP architecture is and how different the hardware is to PSP.

i have been reading a lot of the threads and these are my conclusions:
- it is impossible
- it is possible
- it is going to happen
- it is never going to happen

but seriously, there are ways that they could do it, but we don't know yet. we will really just have to wait for sony to tell us, just like with the vita.

 

[Karuyag]

Instead of the built in BC... they can just sell some sort of optional add-on accessory to the console for BC... should price it way cheaper than the PS3... and let you play your PS3 compatible games... making BC optional... and also would make it a cheaper entry for non PS3 owners...

Then again... people who already own PS3 games would not like the fact that they have to pay extra to play their back catalog of games... but hey... they already have a PS3 right?

 

[phosphor112]

How farfethed is it that the PS4 will have backwards comparability via emulation. I remember on the Vita thread before it was released, many argued PSP emulation would not be possible because of how weird the PSP architecture is and how different the hardware is to PSP.

If those CU's are staying in, maybe they can keep up with the SIMD processing, but Cell does 128 bit SIMD processing, those ALU's don't. I don't know how they'd be able to translate that.

Instead of the built in BC... they can just sell some sort of optional add-on accessory to the console for BC... should price it way cheaper than the PS3... and let you play your PS3 compatible games... making BC optional... and also would make it a cheaper entry for non PS3 owners...

Then again... people who already own PS3 games would not like the fact that they have to pay extra to play their back catalog of games... but hey... they already have a PS3 right?

Yeah, but you'd end up getting a lot of unnecessary overlap for hardware functions.

 

[Perkel]

If those CU's are staying in, maybe they can keep up with the SIMD processing, but Cell does 128 bit SIMD processing, those ALU's don't. I don't know how they'd be able to translate that.



Yeah, but you'd end up getting a lot of unnecessary overlap for hardware functions.

lot of raw power for emulation same as PC doing emulation

 

[The Omega Man]

How farfethed is it that the PS4 will have backwards comparability via emulation. I remember on the Vita thread before it was released, many argued PSP emulation would not be possible because of how weird the PSP architecture is and how different the hardware is to PSP.

either that of they just stream the games with their Gaikai technology

 

[Can Crusher]

And Gakkai will just provide perfect BC, just like that. No fees, no lag, no nothing.

 

[Elios83]

Instead of the built in BC... they can just sell some sort of optional add-on accessory to the console for BC... should price it way cheaper than the PS3... and let you play your PS3 compatible games... making BC optional... and also would make it a cheaper entry for non PS3 owners...

Then again... people who already own PS3 games would not like the fact that they have to pay extra to play their back catalog of games... but hey... they already have a PS3 right?

The add on thing for PS3 BC is pretty much unlikely. It would need to feature all the PS3 main hardware (Cell+RSX+XDR+GDDR3) also because USB has not enough bandwidth as a bus (peak bandwidth for USB3.0 is 625MB/s), it would need its own power supply.
Basically it woud be like buying a PS3 without a Blu Ray drive and connect it to the PS4.
At that point it makes much more sense to simply make a PS4 model with hardware based BC at a higher price (people who want the extra feature without compromises pay for it, seems pretty logic and fair to me). But we are ruling out other specific solutions like Gaikai and hybrid emulation.
Honestly I don't think that Sony wants to lose compatibility with all the contents available on the PSN.

 

[War Eagle]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you actually use BC? Am I the only one who wouldn't care if PS4 doesn't play PS3 games? I'll just move my PS3 to my bedroom, and the PS4 will take it's place in my mancave.

 

[Takuya]

I don't care if it doesn't have BC.

I'd rather they focus on having the machine perform like a beast in next-gen games rather than focus on having it work with past-gen games.