oversitting
Banned
that is pretty last minute.
VGleaks: Orbis Unveiled! [Updated]
- Thread starter ekim
- Start date
that is pretty last minute.
Of course there is. I haven't said that the Xbox will just run native Windows 8.
But some people are arguing that its OS will have nothing in common with Windows, when it will obviously share the same core kernel. As per Windows Phone 8.
The goal will surely be to allow for easy porting of Windows 8 apps over to Xbox. It would make even more sense if app rans natively ran on both, but I don't know how likely that is.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Nonsense, nobody knows what features they have planned for Durango so you can't reasonably claim that. Besides, if they could achieve all that in a lot less RAM, as you claim, then it would make no sense for them to put Windows 8 there, just for the sake of it. A full general use OS designed for modular machines makes absolutely no sense on a console, no matter the complexity of its planned multimedia capabilities. Unless for some reason you believe Microsoft have suddenly turned into a bunch of clueless idiots.
Evolution_1ne
Banned
ummmm you do realize the ps3 was announced in 05 which would coincided with that being last minute, your "myth" just reinforced the point.....
Death Dealer
Member
Nonsense. Because the analogy would be if one company had announced back in 2011, they've been collaborating with AMD on a next gen GPU. You're implying to not be too "last minute" Sony and MS would have to have their design choices nailed down for this upcoming gen back in 2010, or earlier. I think that's ridiculous on its face.
When people say 'last minute' they don't mean weeks before the PS3 started production. But a console would be in the R&D and planning stage for years before it is released. The fact is the original design for the PS3 didn't include a 3rd party GPU and one was only included when the in-house GPU didn't come to fruition.
There's a book by one of the engineers that worked on the PS3 that covers this in detail. I've tried to find it in Amazon, but I can't remember the name of it.
:] so they just spend ton of money "just because ?" Sorry your story doesn't hold up.
Death Dealer
Member
Explain yourself more clearly. Your post makes no sense to me. I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Sony announced they were working with Nvidia before the PS3 was even announced.
oversitting is the most annoying junior in a long time. Just ignore his posts.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
^This. As well as probably reviving your lost pet Fluffy, making your waffles(but no pancakes), and doing your homework for you. Oh and maybe some Kinect features too...
IMO, when MS reveals this system they'll show off some non releated gaming feature that will surprise or blows some minds. It will start a serious debate if Orbis is done out of the gate and therefor should of done the same and then the other camp will debate that it wasnt the worth risk and big performance lost for games.
The debate will end in a statemate, with some saying, "if gaming is your main focus- Get a PS4. If you want to do a ton of cool things as well as some gaming- get a 720."
Then other even more reasonable people to say its to early to predict the impact of this and say which was the better route. come back in 5 years!
Death Dealer
Member
They announced they have been collaborating with Nvidia in 2004. I think that qualifies as still being in the planning stage. I've read before on B3D it takes at least 2 years to design a console from scratch.
That fact does not prove that RSX was last minute. As I've said, each one of these console companies has multiple design concepts.
RSX is integrated into PS3. Whoever said earlier it was tacked on is speaking from ignorance.
oversitting
Banned
They spent a lot of money just because. A $800+ console to make a launch can tell you that.
Nobody is announcing early this round. Sony would have been working with AMD since the PS3 launched.
Development started on Cell in early 2001. It would have been done by Sony with the PS3 clearly in mind, so gives a public date for when planning for the PS3 commenced. Nvidia was announced as supplying the GPU in December 2004, almost 4 years after Cell development had begun.
That's exactly what 'last minute' means in regards to RSX.
oversitting
Banned
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
If they could leverage the OS and ram at features that benefit the social aspect of online gaming (ala something like Party Chat) and expand features to promote playing and interacting with people on your friends list, the visual tradeoff might be worth it... at least for me.
So you are saying XDR is no different than Gddr3 ? Sory but you are simply wrong.
Correct. MS was just lucky that AMD already had already done some work with unified shaders with the R300. Xenos was a year ahead of AMD's PC line of cards as well. So I wouldn't blame NVIDIA for how RSX turned out.
I also agree that the NVIDIA deal wasn't last minute.
It may be true but it's largely pointless to single out. Was it worth mentioning what kernal the OS in the OG Xbox or 360 is based on?
Easy porting could very much be relative to how low level the Durango API is. PCs and mobile/tablet games run on a thicker abstraction layer, so porting to and from Durango may not be so simple. Apps are a different story though imo.
The year a system is announced has little to do with the timing of any contracts made. Not sure how a 2005 announcement indicates the deal was last minute. The hardware in general barely existed when the system was even first revealed.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
oversitting
Banned
The real measurable performance increase is negligible. XDR is as fast as DDR3 derived ram but DDR3 didn't really improve in DDR2's perceived performance.
Unless the difference in speed is at least a factor of two, then it's not going help it in the long run. Microsoft could, in theory, swap out their OS whilst keeping the API mostly the same.
From the "leaked" Durango specs, it's bandwidth is apparently 170 GB/s compared to Orbis' 176 GB/s. 6 GB, while somewhat significant, isn't going to tip the balance towards it. Disk access times are a huge factor in getting any of that data up there. Other than that, there are very few ways to mitigate the halved capacity of memory (like using those extra CUs for procedural content). At the moment, I'm of the opinion that this is major detriment to Orbis.
Interesting, I've read some of the demos (such as FNR3) wasn't running on actual hardware and dev kits were limited. Not sure if it's true, but I just assumed hardware was very early/non-existent. Thanks. =)
Empyrean Heaven
Member
Chris Hecker: It's Eight Jaguars Duct Taped Together!
Death Dealer
Member
Right. Probably not many people know, AMD was rumored to have a PC unified shader GPU developed before Xenos (aka R500), the "R400". I guess the performance wasn't there yet and it didn't go into production. So they made the R420 and R520 which are built from the R300 (9700Pro) tech. I'm sure that earlier R400 research helped prepare them when they were designing Xenos.
phosphor112
Banned
XDR was faster than GDDR3...
painful fart
Member
No shit Sherlock!
But which parts will be removed and how many transistors do you think 8 Jaguar cores require?
Ok, take a look at the top XDRAM specs on this page
http://www.elpida.com/en/products/xdr.html
and then post a link to some compareble DDR3 specs.
If you can´t do that, please write a comprehensive apology to this thread for spreading dumb shit.
Oops you're right, xenos is based on the R400, not R300. I got that backwards.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
Funny quotes from Proelite on B3D
Changing his tune yet again...is it sinking in to him that Orbis is more powerful? Or did a source correct him and tip him off?
Changing his tune yet again...is it sinking in to him that Orbis is more powerful? Or did a source correct him and tip him off?
I find thuway more trustworthy in this "volatile" group.
ALBOFIGHTER
Member
Charlie from semiaccurate said that developers are unhappy with the underpowered specs from both consoles compared to what they though they were gonna get. I really think people should stop hoping for some hidden secret that will blow our minds. What you see is what you get. It's just some pc hardware, slightly modified and more efficient with HSA which is coming to PCs later on.
At this point, if we get all the rumoured peripherals included in every sku, then it's not so bad.
At this point, if we get all the rumoured peripherals included in every sku, then it's not so bad.
weekend_warrior
Banned
If you look at the current gen console hardware, and how the games look on them, and then look at the specs on the next gen consoles, it's a pretty nice leap. It doesn't mean a damn thing how it compares to conventional PC hardware.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
Marginal, insignificant update, and probably not worth the added yield issues since it's not as established as GCN
JohnnySasaki86
Member
For the millionith time no its not! Theres a heavy amount of customization going on here with the Liverpool APU, the GPU, and the architecture, but it even goes way beyond that. Drek explains it well here, other people have even gone into more detail on this subject, but I cant find the posts right now and dont want to page through 40 pages right now.
Your going to be able to do things on this hardware that you would never be able to do with 7850 GPU in a PC. Hell even a 680 wont be able to achieve what Orbis and Durango will be able to do 4 years down the line when the devs REALLY start to maximize the hardware.
Not to mention the fact these consoles will be way more efficient at using there power that is 8-10x more on paper. Not to mention the additional graphical features like tessilation,ect. In real world usable difference, and the end user experiernce it will be much more than 10x leap!
Agreed, but I dont know if it'll happen right out of the gate. I know the average person we'll easily be able to tell the difference and see the jump. It just may take a year or two for our jaws to drop and to forget about the specs. I mean a lot of people already a certian level there expecting cause they've seen Star wars 1313 and Watch Dogs.
Can Crusher
Banned
You know this how?
It's like you just described the biggest piece of shit they could've put in there. Like, who came up with this shit "new" gpu? Guys at AMD sat in a room and were like "How could we make a shit update? We'll ask James: Well, you make a marginal insignificant update and bring along a bunch of yield issues, then you slap a 2 at the end and voila."
I mean seriously. lol I guess I had some fun with that one.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
For Orbis we are looking at a GPU with ~8-10X RSX performance, ~8-10X bandwidth, ~10X PPU performance, and 8X the RAM.
It's a true next-gen leap. Durango is slightly more disappointing at face value, but is still a big leap.
It may not seem like much compared to high end PCs of today, but it doesn't need to be. Further, back when the 360 launched, GPUs weren't as power hungry at the high end as they are today...those monstrous power requirements aren't feasible in a closed box.
I expect people to be stunned when they see games, and we can all forget about specs.
Naughty Dog will definitely show off a game trailer, I'm certain, by this year's E3. By that time they are 1.5 years in to next-gen development....if it weren't for next-gen increasing development time (initially), that would almost be enough time for Naughty Dog to have a game ready for release.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Can't you at least show the proof of what you stated, or is there none?
Just a friendly reminder, GCN 2 has very minor differences from the original GCN. It offers virtually no savings in heat, and the architectural improvements are minimal at best. What GCN2 will do however, is offer headaches, because it hasn't hit mass production.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
Um, no where did I say GCN2 was crap. It's just not a huge improvement, and Sony/Microsoft are pushing the boundaries for SoC design, so they probably want to make sure certain components aren't going to be show stoppers when it comes time to fab.
ALBOFIGHTER
Member
They will maximize software down the line not hardware. They choose what to use their resources on, what kind of AA they can get away with, lowering resolution and frame rates to push hardware is not magic, it's just compromise.
Yes consoles are more efficient cause there's no overhead and hardware is specifically focused on gaming. Features like full HSA which consoles might get will come out a year after on pc. Other optimizations consoles have, pcs don't need to worry about cause they can brute force through them. Before console hardware was quite unique so it was hard to compare to pcs but now with x86 architecture and amd supplying CPU and gpu, it's the first time consoles are so similar to pcs. Don't buy into this console magic bs. It's ignorant. It comes down to efficiencies, optimization and compromises. No magic
Can Crusher
Banned
But this is the thing, you and thuway just said that the Seaislands gpus (GCN2) are gonna bring very very little gain and more trouble than it's worth.
Now, if the card is a marginal upgrade then that means that it's made to take advantage of a more mature manufacturing process. Which sounds like opposite of bad yields. A performance gain of 30% would be really big, which is what AMD wants/wanted, but I would guess anywhere up to 20%. One of the things AMD is advancing though is HSA and GCN compatibility with it.
So if we add full HSA compatibility, get a 20% increase in performance, on a mature 28 nm process that won't bring bad yields...
It doesn't sound like Geforce titan, but I don't think it would be an insignificant update for a closed box environment.
That's my 2 cents.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
theres got to be some difference, or they wouldnt of released it at all, and wouldnt of called it GCN2. What is it supposed to do differently? ANy new features? 100% sure it more efficient to some degree, 15%?
I read it was a small improvement in performance and better on energy efficiency too? I just think the next gen consoles GPUs could do with any ounce of extra power. I get that it's closed platform and aiming for something more affordable, but as time passes I realise it's not the bump in gpu I would have expected. Guess it all depends on price.
ALBOFIGHTER
Member
energy effecincies is exactly what consoles need. The evolution with gpus have required more power to run them which is a bottleneck for consoles. If Gpus can become more efficient with the same or slightly better performance, then you can actually use high end gpus in consoles depending how much power they require.
I think both sony and microsoft are just aiming for good enough this time. If they can get that at the lowest cost, they won't care what's new and exciting.