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Feminists hijack #INeedMasculismBecause hashtag. Misandry is real.

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Another reason I love Fiction. Makes her point (which I agree with 100%), without pissing me the fuck off by being antagonistic and/or snarky. Don't reply to this by the way, just wish other people could make a point without sounding like complete sarcastic assholes.

I am an asshole also, but I still don't like other assholes.
 
I think a lot of the complaints seem to come from the idea of "chivalry"

Look at some of the tweets.

"Why does the man always buy drinks?"

"Why does the man pay for dinner?"

or being emasculated

"Why can't I cry at a movie"

"Why can't I admit a guy is good looking"

You have to be honest that from the onset it doesn't really seem like feminist talk about these issues. This leads to MRA guys thinking that feminists don't care about any of this. Many females themselves perpetuate these ideas of chivalry and look at guys as lame or whatever if their first date dinner is not payed for. Obviously patriarchy effects us all female and male and that's the part that's hard for a lot of people to understand.

Edit: eh fiction and someone else kinda covered this...too slow
 
I've been getting a good laugh out of this today, and thought I'd share.

Some men's rights activists (MRAs) from Reddit and 4chan decided to make their own version of the #INeedFeminismBecause hashtag. Thus, #INeedMasculismBecause was born. Things didn't quite go as planned, though, as feminists quickly turned the hashtag into an excuse to make fun of MRAs.

It's my personal opinion that MRAs are annoying as hell. I have several specific critiques, but it's mostly just that they willfully misconstrue feminism. Feminism is an all-encompassing anti-oppression analysis that seeks to attack patriarchy. MRAs ignore that, and insist that feminists just hate men (which, as a male feminist, I find funny). They're also ignorant to the many ways in which patriarchy hurts men, like male violence and self-alienation.

Anyways, here's a few of my favorite parody tweets.



And here's a representative example of a serious one:



#INeedMasculismBecause - Enjoy!

This is literally the worst thing I have read in months.
What a drab life to get worked up about or laugh at the inanity of this.
 
Can we stop treating this holistically and break it down please? I hate the term patriarchy because it feels too abstract, but lets get real here for a moment. It is possible to recognize that men are disadvantaged in some ways, while recognizing that they are advantaged in others. The majority of people seem to agree that women have it worse all things considered, an opinion you evidently do not share. But ultimately, it doesn't matter, because surely we can both agree that the status quo is inadequate for both parties, and that the root causes of these inequalities is the historical context of our society and the cultural zeitgeist in which we live.

There's a sociologist named Michael Kimmel who has written a number of books about gender and feminism that I like, and he recently came out with a book called The Guy's Guide to Feminism. At a recent post-keynote discussion he said something that I think gets to the heart of the issue:

"There's two parts of your question I want to address. The first is the terminology - the feminist / pro-feminist question, and the second is what sort of men's movements there are in the States. And the first thing I'll say is that when I first started doing this work, I was very careful to differentiate being "pro-feminist" from being "feminist", and my reasoning was very simple. In order to support feminist, you only need to basically have two things. You have to have one empirical observation, which is "Women and men aren't equal." And the second is a moral position: "And they should be." And that's really all you need. If you observe that women and men aren't equal, and you think they should be, you support feminism. That's basically my position. But to call yourself a feminist, be a feminist, I thought, at the time, that you actually had to have the felt experience of that inequality. Which I didn't have, of course. And it would be analogous to calling myself a black militant as opposed to anti-racist or a gay liberationist as opposed to gay-affirmative. So I didn't call myself a feminist; I called myself a pro-feminist. My feeling is that, you know, some quarter of a century later feminism has been so relentlessly attacked that anyone who wants to call themselves a feminist I'm pretty much okay with. It's simply saying, I want to occupy this space that has been so discredited publicly so relentlessly for such a long time. So I'm okay with that, a little bit. I'm more okay with it, but I agree with you politically, I share the idea.

But let me just say a couple things. Here's the way I see the way in which the men's movements - and I'll say that is plural - have organized themselves or responded to some of the observations of feminism. Feminism basically had two levels, the personal and the political. At the political level, they had that empirical observation. Feminists argued that women were not in power. Well this is pretty obvious - you look at every single parliament, every single board of trustees, every single corporate board, every single academic hierarchy, and you'll see that women, as a group, are not in power. And the second part of what feminism said was that individual women do not feel powerful. So, feminism was designed to redress both - to change the aggregate power imbalance at the top and to empower women to feel more autonomous and make better choices in their own personal lives. So now you apply that to men - nice parallelism for women - "Men are in power" - right, everybody agrees with that part - "Therefore, men must feel powerful" - Bzzt, wrong.

That's the part where in the 1970s we would go to men and we'd say, "Men have all the power, men have to give up the power" and the men would say, 'What are you talking about? I don't have any power - my wife bosses me around, my kids boss me around, my boss bosses me around - I'm completely powerless.' So for women you had to address the symmetry between women's aggregate powerlessness and personal feelings of powerlessness. For men you had to address the dissimilarity between all the aggregate power in the world not - Reagan to the side - trickling down to individual men feeling powerful.

So, the men's movements are all about that relationship between aggregate power and men not feeling powerful. The men's rights groups say, 'You know how you don't feel powerful? You're right. We have no more power, the women have it all now. Let's go get it back.' That's the men's rights position. Then there's the mythopoetic position: 'You know how you don't feel powerful? Let's go off to the woods, we'll do the power drumming, we'll do the power chanting, the power rituals - we'll feel powerful.' Sort of like the yuppies with their power ties, as if power were a fashion accessory. And the pro-feminist men's movement says, 'It is exactly that discrepancy between the aggregate political power and the fact that you don't feel powerful is the lever that we want to be using to talk to men: All that power didn't make you feel powerful. Is it possible that more gender equality at the top will actually make you feel more powerful in your personal life. Isn't that a possibility? Can you entertain that as a possibility? Since all the power in the world didn't do it, maybe equal power in the aggregate will actually free you to feel more powerful, to live the life you say you actually want to live.' And that is the key piece in all of this: We are not imposing some, you know, Obama-esque socialist blue state feminism on unsuspecting men. We are taking men at their word. Men want to have good relationships, they want to be good fathers. So let's take them at their word: This is the only way you're gonna do it.​
 
Since the broader topic has been breached, I would say that I do pay for my girlfriend's meals, and open the door for her, and most of the traditionally chivalrous things, but only because I actually enjoy it and not because I feel obligated to.

Just as a girl may be the cook in the family but it isn't necessarily because she "knows her place" and is obligated to be barefoot and pregnant. If a girl wanted to pay and wanted to open the door, that would be completely fine with me. I happen to have considerably more money than my current girlfriend, so that hasn't really come up.
 
Since the broader topic has been breached, I would say that I do pay for my girlfriend's meals, and open the door for her, and most of the traditionally chivalrous things, but only because I actually enjoy it and not because I feel obligated to.

Just as a girl may be the cook in the family but it isn't necessarily because she "knows her place" and is obligated to be barefoot and pregnant. If a girl wanted to pay and wanted to open the door, that would be completely fine with me. I happen to have considerably more money than my current girlfriend, so that hasn't really come up.

Uhm you do not need to explain yourself , you are a fucking gentleman.

I would open the door for you any day.
 
Since the broader topic has been breached, I would say that I do pay for my girlfriend's meals, and open the door for her, and most of the traditionally chivalrous things, but only because I actually enjoy it and not because I feel obligated to.

Just as a girl may be the cook in the family but it isn't necessarily because she "knows her place" and is obligated to be barefoot and pregnant. If a girl wanted to pay and wanted to open the door, that would be completely fine with me. I happen to have considerably more money than my current girlfriend, so that hasn't really come up.

I honestly think a gap is pay rather a gender gap should decide who pays for dates and what frequency. If one partner makes less than the other, I believe it's logic that the other should pay more often, since it eases the burden on someone they care about.

First dates, however, don't come into account with this, so I would still want to go 50/50 there.
 
I honestly think a gap is pay rather a gender gap should decide who pays for dates and what frequency. If one partner makes less than the other, I believe it's logic that the other should pay more often, since it eases the burden on someone they care about.

First dates, however, don't come into account with this, so I would still want to go 50/50 there.

What logic? It's only slightly less arbitrary than being obligated to pay because of your gender. Unless the other person literally can not afford the meal, in which case it becomes a necessity and not an obligation.
 
There's a sociologist named Michael Kimmel who has written a number of books about gender and feminism that I like, and he recently came out with a book called The Guy's Guide to Feminism. At a recent post-keynote discussion he said something that I think gets to the heart of the issue:

I don't know if you've heard of the book Surpassing the Love of Men: Romantic Friendship and Love Between Women from the Renaissance to the Present, it kind of goes on the lesbian side of things... But the first couple of chapters covered feminism throughout history (it was very interesting and her style of writing was captivating too).
 
There's a sociologist named Michael Kimmel who has written a number of books about gender and feminism that I like, and he recently came out with a book called The Guy's Guide to Feminism. At a recent post-keynote discussion he said something that I think gets to the heart of the issue:

I would add that it's not just feeling like you have no power yourself, it's also feeling like people are blaming you personally for the group's past. Sort of like a gender politics original sin that you inherit for being male. This isn't the position of feminism, but it sure can feel that way for some people.
 
What logic? It's only slightly less arbitrary than being obligated to pay because of your gender. Unless the other person literally can not afford the meal, in which case it becomes a necessity and not an obligation.

I am saying it would be logical to me, because I would to lessen the burden of financial worries for someone I cared about. Maybe it's just me though.
 
A somewhat random thought:

What do you folks think about beauty pageants or shows like Miss Universe/World/Whatever? A form of woman's freedom or a form of society dominated by male gaze?
 
A somewhat random thought:

What do you folks think about beauty pageants or shows like Miss Universe/World/Whatever? A form of woman's freedom or a form of society dominated by male gaze?

I don't think there's anything wrong with highlighting the magnificence of the female form. Biases aside. Any root argument along the lines of our standard of beauty being detrimental to women is not well served being examined through the lens of a beauty pageant given that such a topic is extremely widespread.
 
Wow. That really nails it. So clear - and sympathetic, too. My usual gut reaction to MRAs is always disbelief and anger, but this kind of logical, understanding approach seems so much more effective.

I'm glad someone actually read it. :)

I don't know if you've heard of the book Surpassing the Love of Men: Romantic Friendship and Love Between Women from the Renaissance to the Present, it kind of goes on the lesbian side of things... But the first couple of chapters covered feminism throughout history (it was very interesting and her style of writing was captivating too).

I have heard of it, but thank you for the recommendation!

I would add that it's not just feeling like you have no power yourself, it's also feeling like people are blaming you personally for the group's past. Sort of like a gender politics original sin that you inherit for being male. This isn't the position of feminism, but it sure can feel that way for some people.

Right. I think it is an issue that plagues any discussion about social justice, but seems especially problematic in discussions about gender or race.
 
CHEEZMO™;47493322 said:
The response to all this is in the first line of your own post. Other minority groups didn't throw a fit about the Black community fighting for equality, they joined in.
So that's what I'm saying. Can there be a men's rights campaign, working with feminism, that isn't dismissed by saying: 1. its not a legitimate issue or 2. its being taken care of by feminism already?

My main point is that I think it's a marginalized issue. It dare not speak its name. It's just tacky for a group labelled as "dominant" to try and further their own needs, even if there are needs to be furthered (ie economic imbalance in dating, suppression of male emotionalism, the high rates of isolation/suicide from a presumption of male self-sufficiency).

Actually if feminism claims to be fighting for gender equality... It really does need a name change, which I see being talked about. It's the kind of packaging that I'm sure is really appealing to a mass of women and those who are particularly interested in protecting women, but very few males can look at such a label and think "oh, this is about making a better society for all of us". You're gonna get far more women and male supporters of women than males who recognize that it can make a better position for them too. It's just not great marketing (if you really want it to be for both genders), and as I said, I think it may function better if there were a separate male equality movement, who recognize feminism as ally, not enemy.

Most everyone I know holds to this. Either 50/50, or she pays for the first, he pays for the second. Most, however, will not cause a stink if he insists on paying, because it might be rude. They do make sure it's clear that the next date is on her though.

And personally this practice is going out of style through everyone I know. Most of my dates we end up paying pretty close to 50/50, especially if I date someone that is into feminism.

While I am glad you are making strides on this... Claiming that equality of payment is a norm would be even more of a stretch than claiming sexism or racism is dead. All over the world right now, men are having dinner with women, and there is the hidden expectation or hope that he pay. Sometimes the women are even feminists, but still.... It would look so much better if he dropped the coin at the end of the meal. He doesn't have to, oh no..... But he would look like such a good guy if he did. And that conversation about splitting the bill? Kind of a turn off. The psychology that the woman is the gatekeeper to the relationship is still there, and there's a toll.

There are pressures at play that coerce the male into dropping more money, more often, and it's rampant in society. If you and your feminist dates are really paying equally, keep it up.. And tell others!
 
While I am glad you are making strides on this... Claiming that equality of payment is a norm would be even more of a stretch than claiming sexism or racism is dead. All over the world right now, men are having dinner with women, and there is the hidden expectation or hope that he pay. Sometimes the women are even feminists, but still.... It would look so much better if he dropped the coin at the end of the meal. He doesn't have to, oh no..... But he would look like such a good guy if he did. And that conversation about splitting the bill? Kind of a turn off. The psychology that the woman is the gatekeeper to the relationship is still there, and there's a toll.

There are pressures at play that coerce the male into dropping more money, more often, and it's rampant in society. If you and your feminist dates are really paying equally, keep it up.. And tell others!

Men are assumed the aggressors in dating as in all interactions between the genders. I would assume your problem with this particular situation would be the same as the aforementioned aggressor role men are expected to have in society?
 
Most people don't really want gender equality. They want to keep the side perks that inequality grants their gender, and do away with the rest of it. For every true feminist I feel like I see guys who don't want to be the caretaker but still want the control, and women who want the caretaking but not the man's control. And so from the ruins of their short and angry relationships, tweets like these are vomited.

I'd say these stupid "masculists" either did watch too many CBS sitcoms, or they dated a similarly stupid woman who had the whole "you're paying for everything/I'm a fierce independent woman" dichotomy going on. Either way, it all smells strongly like sour grapes.
 
Men are assumed the aggressors in dating as in all interactions between the genders. I would assume your problem with this particular situation would be the same as the aforementioned aggressor role men are expected to have in society?
Does that mean the role that "men are supposed to pursue women"?. I suppose the issues are related.
 
Sigh, this thread will be a graveyard, but here goes.

I'd like to think that MRA's are like me and just see the need to be devil's advocate at every turn.

Do women as a sex experience more discrimination than men in western society? Abso-fucking-lutely. If you disagree with this statement please take any first year arts course that has anything to with society. Or read the news.

The problem is that doesn't mean men don't face discrimination in some ways. And you can't brush that all under the rug of "patriarchal society". Again, most of this can be seen as insignificant; but in a society where we are trying to level the playing field COMPLETELY equal and remove EVERY form of discrimination, is it not at least worth mentioning these things?

The point of women wanting equality but also wanting to keep the advantages of olden day chivalry seem valid to me. And why wouldn't it be? How could you blame anyone of any race/gender etc etc of wanting to hold onto something nice that happens to them sometimes. I don't like the pressure of being expected to pay for everything on dates, and being completely dismissed if I try to ask for halfsies.

Of course there is the stereotyping of males being sex crazed lunatics that shouldn't allowed around children. Don't believe me? Go sit alone at the park as a male compared to as a female. (this seems creepy to me as well, but the point stands.) Ask a male elementary school teacher what he probably had to deal with multiple times in his career.

Does this compare to female issues as a sex? No. But I feel this kind of stuff should still be talked about. I feel like a lot of these guys see the term feminism as anti male simply due to its syntax.
 
Sigh, this thread will be a graveyard, but here goes.

I'd like to think that MRA's are like me and just see the need to be devil's advocate at every turn.

Do women as a sex experience more discrimination than men in western society? Abso-fucking-lutely. If you disagree with this statement please take any first year arts course that has anything to with society. Or read the news.

The problem is that doesn't mean men don't face discrimination in some ways. And you can't brush that all under the rug of "patriarchal society". Again, most of this can be seen as insignificant; but in a society where we are trying to level the playing field COMPLETELY equal and remove EVERY form of discrimination, is it not at least worth mentioning these things?

The point of women wanting equality but also wanting to keep the advantages of olden day chivalry seem valid to me. And why wouldn't it be? How could you blame anyone of any race/gender etc etc of wanting to hold onto something nice that happens to them sometimes. I don't like the pressure of being expected to pay for everything on dates, and being completely dismissed if I try to ask for halfsies.

Of course there is the stereotyping of males being sex crazed lunatics that shouldn't allowed around children. Don't believe me? Go sit alone at the park as a male compared to as a female. (this seems creepy to me as well, but the point stands.) Ask a male elementary school teacher what he probably had to deal with multiple times in his career.

Does this compare to female issues as a sex? No. But I feel this kind of stuff should still be talked about. I feel like a lot of these guys see the term feminism as anti male simply due to its syntax.

Agreed. I know it isn't the case, but god damn if it doesn't feel like it sometimes. Also feel ya on the rest of your post.
 
I would give my seat to a woman on a bus. I just would. I have done it, she always accepted. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to do. I suppose if she got upset and was laying into me for extending stereotypes, I'd be at a loss for words. But that hasn't happened.

I think there's inequality on both sides but much more against women, no doubt. I think you'd be blind to say there was no discrimination against men, but you'd also have to be blind to say there is no discrimination against lots of groupings.

I see discrimination against women in every day life, and it just makes you shake your head.
 
So that's what I'm saying. Can there be a men's rights campaign, working with feminism, that isn't dismissed by saying: 1. its not a legitimate issue or 2. its being taken care of by feminism already?

My main point is that I think it's a marginalized issue. It dare not speak its name. It's just tacky for a group labelled as "dominant" to try and further their own needs, even if there are needs to be furthered (ie economic imbalance in dating, suppression of male emotionalism, the high rates of isolation/suicide from a presumption of male self-sufficiency).

I mean, the thing is these are issues that fall under feminism. I don't think that's a dismissal of those as important issues at all; I think it is an acknowledgement that they actually are important. You are talking about issues that arise from the patriarchal ideal of hegemonic masculinity. So, no, I don't think you're going to come up with something that won't be met with, "That's already covered by feminism"; it is something that feminism is concerned with.

But if there is a group of men that wants to emphasize those things - to talk to men about the suppression of male emotionalism, about the myth of male self-sufficiency, about the need for interaction and companionship - and doesn't have at the heart of their analysis, "You feel powerless because women have all the power, feminism is about subjugating men" - as men's rights analyses are wont to do - then I don't think you're going to have feminists saying that it isn't legitimate.

As it happens, however, the men who do this tend to call themselves, well, male feminists. The groups who identify feminism as the cause of those problems tend to call themselves men's rights advocates, which is why the answer to the question, "Can we have a men's rights campaign, working with feminism, [...]?" is "Not with the men's rights movements that are actually in existence."
 
I think a lot of the complaints seem to come from the idea of "chivalry"

Look at some of the tweets.

"Why does the man always buy drinks?"

"Why does the man pay for dinner?"

or being emasculated

"Why can't I cry at a movie"

"Why can't I admit a guy is good looking"

You have to be honest that from the onset it doesn't really seem like feminist talk about these issues. This leads to MRA guys thinking that feminists don't care about any of this. Many females themselves perpetuate these ideas of chivalry and look at guys as lame or whatever if their first date dinner is not payed for. Obviously patriarchy effects us all female and male and that's the part that's hard for a lot of people to understand.

Edit: eh fiction and someone else kinda covered this...too slow

I think you're mistaken saying that feminists don't talk about these things. All of your examples are products of a heteronormative patriarchy, and in my experience, they are discussed frequently among people concerned with feminist issues.
 
I think you're mistaken saying that feminists don't talk about these things. All of your examples are products of a heteronormative patriarchy, and in my experience, they are discussed frequently among people concerned with feminist issues.

Yeah I just meant on the surface it seems like things like this aren't addressed by feminism even though it does address patriarchy as a whole. I just don't think it's evident to people.
 
I didn't expect them to actually go through with is, but it resulted in some hilarity so I'm cool with it. Oh, /b/, the Internet would be boring as fuck without you guys.

If all gender equalities issues fall under feminism, then it is mis-named as feminism.

They should just re-brand the whole thing "The Equality Movement". Everybody loves equality.
 
I mean, the thing is these are issues that fall under feminism. I don't think that's a dismissal of those as important issues at all; I think it is an acknowledgement that they actually are important. You are talking about issues that arise from the patriarchal ideal of hegemonic masculinity. So, no, I don't think you're going to come up with something that won't be met with, "That's already covered by feminism"; it is something that feminism is concerned with.

But if there is a group of men that wants to emphasize those things - to talk to men about the suppression of male emotionalism, about the myth of male self-sufficiency, about the need for interaction and companionship - and doesn't have at the heart of their analysis, "You feel powerless because women have all the power, feminism is about subjugating men" - as men's rights analyses are wont to do - then I don't think you're going to have feminists saying that it isn't legitimate.

As it happens, however, the men who do this tend to call themselves, well, male feminists. The groups who identify feminism as the cause of those problems tend to call themselves men's rights advocates, which is why the answer to the question, "Can we have a men's rights campaign, working with feminism, [...]?" is "Not with the men's rights movements that are actually in existence."
On that point, agreed. Clearly these groups don't understand feminism enough to realize that it would be accommodating and complimentary to most of their issues ... had they not identified feminism as "the problem".
 
I've only read the last couple of pages, so I apologize if this has already been said, but this whole discussion about the term feminism and its role in society is eerily similar to the arguments that racism is "over" because Obama is President and that policies such as affirmative action are actually racist against whites.

I have a lot of problems with feminism inasmuch as third wave feminism has disseminated into a pile of nothingness due to fracturing and apathy. The fact that neither Canada nor America has definitively settled the abortion issue is just one example of how feminism has atrophied in recent years (I would think that all feminists would agree that sex-selection based abortions should be illegal, especially when immigrants typically abort girls because they want to have sons, yes?).

But issues of gender equality that are directly related to and impact a woman's life are still important and disproportionately affect women's lives.

Do men get raped? Do men get abused at home? Do men suffer from anorexia and bulimia and other eating disorders? Do some men get paid less than women who work in the same position? Sure, I don't want to discount these experiences. But the fact is that these issues - and many others - are things that women HAVE to think about that men typically take for granted.

The argument that word "feminism" should be replaced with "gender equality" assumes that somehow women still don't suffer many of the systemic injustices that are either built directly into our society or are legacies of an obsolete form of socialization that simply hasn't died off yet. Unfortunately, that's just not the case.
 
If all gender equalities issues fall under feminism, then it is mis-named as feminism.

I don't think it was misnamed; feminism was (and is) primarily about achieving equality for women, in every sense of the word - personal, political, cultural, and so forth. I don't think feminists could have known that the eventual analyses of later feminist thinkers would encompass issues that also benefited men, though less relatively than women would benefit. And I don't think any feminist is going to deny that. But it is still true that what feminists identify as the system of gender inequality, or patriarchy, while giving men as a class an aggregate advantage over women as a class is something that actually does a disservice to men individually. Patriarchy sets up a concomitant gender ideal for men (hegemonic masculinity) (and women, for that matter, in emphasized femininity) that men compare their own masculinity to; in the estimation of feminists it is this hegemonic masculinity that causes a lot of the problems that men as a class experience.
 
define "teachers" are we talking that teacher A for math and teacher B for math work at school X and teacher A gets more because he is male, or are we talking about national average numbers?

because in general most elementary and high school teachers are female, while iirc university teachers have a higher % of males in them and university jobs are payed better

Yes, I would like to see stats like that too. I seems (at least from where I am from) that the percentage of male teachers increased as the grade levels increased (maybe that ill-formed notion that women are just better with younger children or maybe that age group appeals to women more? I don't know, and I wouldn't want claim to.) and that math and science (in higher levels) tend to be more male and the humanities tend to be more female. That's all anecdotal though. Are there pay difference between teachers who specialize in, say, math vs. English?

I don't think it was misnamed; feminism was (and is) primarily about achieving equality for women, in every sense of the word - personal, political, cultural, and so forth. I don't think feminists could have known that the eventual analyses of later feminist thinkers would encompass issues that also benefited men, though less relatively than women would benefit. And I don't think any feminist is going to deny that. But it is still true that what feminists identify as the system of gender inequality, or patriarchy, while giving men as a class an aggregate advantage over women as a class is something that actually does a disservice to men individually. Patriarchy sets up a concomitant gender ideal for men (hegemonic masculinity) (and women, for that matter, in emphasized femininity) that men compare their own masculinity to; in the estimation of feminists it is this hegemonic masculinity that causes a lot of the problems that men as a class experience.

I agree that it wasn't initally misnamed, but as the times and issues shift, do you think a rebranding/renaming is necessary to be accurate of the more recently encompassed goals and to make it more appeal for the other half of society that doesn't quite as readily adhere to the name of "feminist"? As a side note, I would (in the present day) hate to call myself or be called a "male feminist" as if I could never be a "(normal) feminist".
 
Working for the federal gov I can see absolutely no difference in pay, it's mostly about years put in. More women than men hold the highest positions. I know this is anecdotal but just putting it out there. I'm sure it could be different in other situations.

Transparency in government pay makes it harder to create disparity in pay. I work for the Canadian government, and everyone knows exactly what each other makes. That makes it more difficult to discriminate.

We do still see gender imbalances in how certain roles are staffed, though. In my organisation I'd guess that about 85% of administrative assistants are female. Field staff were predominately male - this part is quickly changing.

In the private sector, from what I can tell, transparency about pay does not seem to be the norm. I think that contributes to the pay disparities that still exist.
 
I don't agree with feminism or masculism , how about, gee i dunno , equality !?

But feminism is a movement for equality.

Does this compare to female issues as a sex? No. But I feel this kind of stuff should still be talked about. I feel like a lot of these guys see the term feminism as anti male simply due to its syntax.

I would add that it's not just feeling like you have no power yourself, it's also feeling like people are blaming you personally for the group's past. Sort of like a gender politics original sin that you inherit for being male. This isn't the position of feminism, but it sure can feel that way for some people.

Is it weird that I never feel this way? I know I benefit from societal trends of patriarchy. It seems like a sign of insecurity to deny that.
 
I agree that it wasn't initally misnamed, but as the times and issues shift, do you think a rebranding/renaming is necessary to be accurate of the more recently encompassed goals and to make it more appeal for the other half of society that doesn't quite as readily adhere to the name of "feminist"? As a side note, I would (in the present day) hate to call myself or be called a "male feminist" as if I could never be a "(normal) feminist".

I don't call myself a "male feminist"; I just call myself a feminist. I think that labeling oneself a "male feminist" somehow implies that your interest is primarily with feminist issues that affect men. I don't know that that's actually the truth, but it's what it sounds like in my head.

And you are right that the word 'feminism' doesn't necessarily imply all that it stands for to the uninitiated; I don't dispute that at all. But there is a whole wealth of feminist thought that has been created over the last fifty years - let alone what came before that - and I don't see how any renaming is not going to be completely transparent when what is presented is the same ideas, the same thinkers, the same concepts, the same everything, except the name - and the writings still make regular reference to feminism. The whole suggestion seems a bit silly to me and not quite thought out as to how this hypothetical renaming is supposed to actually work. I guess it reminds me of nothing so much as Comcast renaming itself Xfinity in the face of its terrible reputation.
 
Funny enough, after two years of being in a women's studies class, most college aged women (taking a class about women's studies anyway) don't like to identify with the word "feminist" precisely because of the stigma attached to it.

But its stigmatization is part of the processes that attack women in the first place. It's like how black activists were portrayed as militant after the initial wave of civil rights actions.
 
I agree that it wasn't initally misnamed, but as the times and issues shift, do you think a rebranding/renaming is necessary to be accurate of the more recently encompassed goals and to make it more appeal for the other half of society that doesn't quite as readily adhere to the name of "feminist"? As a side note, I would (in the present day) hate to call myself or be called a "male feminist" as if I could never be a "(normal) feminist".
Mumei defends the name by saying, in many words, that men cause most of the problems so gender equality should be identified as a specifically female concept/trait. In other words, use the name itself to make a point about what the score is. We will all become better and more equal by being more like women.

It really seems like a lot of mental gymnastics to justify holding onto a name that, by anyone's admission, makes for a confusing and ineffective summation of the current movement's goals, and is pointlessly divisive in a topic where we couldn't need less divisiveness.

It's not a blight on the earth or anything but people are going to spend a lot of their capital defending an incongruous label that gains them nothing in return for all the drama.
 
I don't call myself a "male feminist"; I just call myself a feminist. I think that labeling oneself a "male feminist" somehow implies that your interest is primarily with feminist issues that affect men. I don't know that that's actually the truth, but it's what it sounds like in my head.

And you are right that the word 'feminism' doesn't necessarily imply all that it stands for to the uninitiated; I don't dispute that at all. But there is a whole wealth of feminist thought that has been created over the last fifty years - let alone what came before that - and I don't see how any renaming is not going to be completely transparent when what is presented is the same ideas, the same thinkers, the same concepts, the same everything, except the name - and the writings still make regular reference to feminism. The whole suggestion seems a bit silly to me and not quite thought out as to how this hypothetical renaming is supposed to actually work. I guess it reminds me of nothing so much as Comcast renaming itself Xfinity in the face of its terrible reputation.

It's not that I wouldn't label myself that (other than my own, personal discomfort with attaching "feminine" to myself, but that's my issue) but that (assumption here) that others would label me as such. Do you think that the majority of "(female) feminists" would label me as just a "feminist," because I don't think the majority would. And it my head, it's not that I'm only interested in feminist issues that affect men, but that I'm some subset of feminist that doesn't get to come to big table.

And things change though. I think a better analogy might be when Canada gained independence (stick with me here) and was no longer the "Dominion of Canada" and became just Canada. Did anything really change other than acknowledging what the nation had become? A new name, not because of a "bad reputation," but because of a shift in existence and goals.

Mumei defends the name by saying, in many words, that men cause most of the problems so gender equality should be identified as a specifically female concept/trait. In other words, use the name itself to make a point about what the score is. We will all become better and more equal by being more like women.

It really seems like a lot of mental gymnastics to justify holding onto a name that, by anyone's admission, makes for a confusing and ineffective summation of the current movement's goals, and is pointlessly divisive in a topic where we couldn't need less divisiveness.

I wouldn't go that far against him, though.
You are pretty wordy sometimes Mumei ;p
I don't think he's ever said or imply that men should be more like women. I think he is simply saying the history of the movement was primary women driven and a more "middle ground" name would be a disservice to the people that paved the way. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, Mumei.
 
Mumei defends the name by saying, in many words, that men cause most of the problems so gender equality should be identified as a specifically female concept/trait. In other words, use the name itself to make a point about what the score is. We will all become better and more equal by being more like women.

It really seems like a lot of mental gymnastics to justify holding onto a name that, by anyone's admission, makes for a confusing and ineffective summation of the current movement's goals, and is pointlessly divisive in a topic where we couldn't need less divisiveness.

No, I don't.

I don't subscribe to the argument you have ascribed to me at all. Can you quote the part where you think I've said that so I can clarify it?
 
No, I don't.

I don't subscribe to the argument you have ascribed to me at all. Can you quote the part where you think I've said that so I can clarify it?
I was interpreting your post as "men and women are suffering from men's patriarchy, so the movement is correctly called by a feminine name even when encompassing the issues for both genders.". Am I wrong? Or are you just saying that that's how feminists see it, and they aren't actually *the* all-encompassing "gender equality movement" whether or not they can really solve men's problems as a consequence of solving their own?

I don't think it was misnamed; feminism was (and is) primarily about achieving equality for women, in every sense of the word - personal, political, cultural, and so forth. I don't think feminists could have known that the eventual analyses of later feminist thinkers would encompass issues that also benefited men, though less relatively than women would benefit. And I don't think any feminist is going to deny that. But it is still true that what feminists identify as the system of gender inequality, or patriarchy, while giving men as a class an aggregate advantage over women as a class is something that actually does a disservice to men individually. Patriarchy sets up a concomitant gender ideal for men (hegemonic masculinity) (and women, for that matter, in emphasized femininity) that men compare their own masculinity to; in the estimation of feminists it is this hegemonic masculinity that causes a lot of the problems that men as a class experience.

Concomitant? Come on.
 
Can you expound upon this? How is the message strong and worthwhile, but also stupid? Why is basing it around "feminism" bad and why does a name change - you say it is more than the name, but that seems to be the only change proposed - to "gender equalism" make it acceptable?

The idea that women should be considered on the same plane (gender equality) as men is "strong and worthwhile." Calling a movement that desires such things "feminism" is stupid because it is exclusive by title. Most people are aware that men, women, and transgender folk can be considered 'feminists' because of their values and the nomenclature should reflect that. Problem is, the word 'feminist' is without doubt a gendered term.

The values upon which the feminist agenda are founded do indeed transcend the name. The name, as stated above, is skewed to females. I think we're all aware that the feminist movement is the butt of a great many jokes and, in a lot of circles, the very term is scoffed at (though rarely for a good reason). For a lot of ignorant people out there, the name is enough for them to discredit or laugh at the movement.

People putting forward the argument that men only desire a name change are being kind of ridiculous. The most insightful discussion I ever had about the idea of changing the name was with a professor of mine (this woman).

I really don't understand how "gender equalism" or something along those lines isn't more inclusive and/or specific at the same time. It's the kind of euphemism that makes a good thing better.
 
At the end of the day, people are people. They'll behave in ways for their own utmost benefit.

Just because a woman protests for equal pay, that doesn't mean she'll protest getting some free dinners. If she wants to lobby for the right to have an abortion, that doesn't necessitate that she wants to give a man the right to walk away if he doesn't want a child.

It may not be ideologically consistent. But it's human nature. I think pretending feminists are ideologically pure is a fallacy. And that's true for any group, not just feminists. After all, isn't that what democracy is? Voting for your own self interests?
 
...

I really don't understand how "gender equalism" or something along those lines isn't more inclusive and/or specific at the same time. It's the kind of euphemism that makes a good thing better.

I guess the fear is that such a name change could be taken as a euphemism for a whitewashing of historical and contemporary gender relations, whipped up to ease the discomfort of those on the privileged side of the ledger. Isn't there a good argument for supporting the continuation of such discomfort in the insecure? Who stands to benefit from "smoothing out" a movement of activism?
 
I guess the fear is that such a name change could be taken as a euphemism for a whitewashing of historical and contemporary gender relations, whipped up to ease the discomfort of those on the privileged side of the ledger. Isn't there a good argument for supporting the continuation of such discomfort in the insecure? Who stands to benefit from "smoothing out" a movement of activism?

Everyone, because it will allow a more ready acclimation by a larger group, at least in my mind, and it fits the more modern goals better.
 
I was interpreting your post as "men and women are suffering from men's patriarchy, so the movement is correctly called by a feminine name even when encompassing the issues for both genders.". Am I wrong? Or are you just saying that that's how feminists see it, and they aren't actually *the* all-encompassing "gender equality movement" whether or not they can really solve men's problems as a consequence of solving their own?

I was really only saying that calling a movement whose raison d'être is achieving equality for women "feminist" made sense; I was not saying that "men cause most of the problems so gender equality should be identified as a specifically female concept/trait." And since it made sense at the time to call it feminism, and that goal is still not achieved, I think the name still makes sense. But it is also true that I have never seen anyone point out an issue that men face that is not the product of patriarchy, and that insofar as feminism is about the deconstruction of patriarchy, feminism is also concerned with dealing with those issues.

Feminists have long known that feminist ideas would also benefit men. I was watching a lecture by Michael Kimmel with PopGAF a few nights ago, and he closed on a quote by Floyd Dell who begins his essay "Feminism for Men", published in 1914 for the socialist magazine The Masses, "Feminism is going to make it possible for the first time for men to be free."

Concomitant? Come on.

Hey, I like that word.
 
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