WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis

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Tron#1 said:
Well you have the haters still saying its using 360 geometry... So what gives? Is it more like PC version or 360 version?
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It has the textures from the high end pc version, longer draw distances than the other console versions and new lighting. Think they said they brought in some lighting dudes with movie backgrounds to spruce up the nightime lighting aswell - supposedly looks very nice.

I can't remember any more than that but srsly, just watch the video. It's not that long and the guy explains very clearly what they have improved.

Now, let's get back to watching the smart people decipher die shots :)
 
I went and ate supper and still no CPU thread? This here geek is getting impatient :P

And yes, it was more structured looking logic that is more likely hand tuned by hand, and the organic looking logic ironically is set by auto layout programs.

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/...rdown-arm-cores-appear-to-be-laid-out-by-hand

http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/25/apple-a6-investigation-shows-highly-customized-dual-core-design/

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/09/25...eveals-manual-layout-of-custom-dual-core-cpu/

LukeTim said:
I didn't think so.
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See all the links above. The ARM core in the A6 is hand tuned, the GPUs are licenced out, you cant just buy the instruction set like you can with ARM. So with ARM cores you can buy the licence and a core design than change it however you want, with PowerVR GPUs you simply licence out the GPU, like getting a reference design from Nvidia or AMD. The CPU portions above, the straight looking stuff, is hand tuned, the organic looking stuff is computer laid.
 
tipoo said:
And yes, it was more structured looking logic that is more likely hand tuned by hand, and the organic looking logic ironically is set by auto layout programs.
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Machines have no concept of beauty.
if i recall correctly it's because auto layout programs focus on making the most compact layout possible
 
lostinblue said:
Yes, for them it's all about fitting stuff into holes.
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Funny though, that a computers computing creation would look more natural, than what a human would make. The computer layouts look like organic jelly of some kind. The human ones look...Well, computer-ish.

EDIT: Seeing it myself, I think he meant symmetrical in other ways, it looks like a mushy computer layout to me.
 
I remember people saying "2-3 days after launch we will have the full specs"...

Yeah... That didn't work out. Not even Die shots help the case. We have even more questions now. LOL
 
Tron#1 said:
can we just give up now. no one is gonna have the answers. nintendo isnt going to release the specs. lets jsut enjoy the games. like i could see if we had a chance of figuring the GPU/CPU out but at this point it seems like everyone is just throwing out guesses. its been fun but there becomes a time when you realize you have been defeated... yes guys nintendo won. we wont know what the finalized specs are for this system.
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Like Yoda once said, "more fun than the answer, the road to find the answer is !"
 
Thanks for the update, Ideaman. I will check out the update in a minute :)

I'm glad to see that this thread is still active.

Li Mu Bai from the Beyond3D boards let out a little bit of possible information about Wii U's tessellation unit:

Afaik, Latte is rumored to house a fixed function unit, (ala the 360) but doesn't require explicit vertex fetches, rendering cracks have also further been reduced.
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Will those changes make tessellation alot more efficient and usable?
 
Orionas said:
I still trying to understand, how u end up being 100% positive, that the gpu is rv7xx chip.

Any documentation, proofs, signs...
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There is documentation that bluntly stated that the processor is based on the rv7xx series. Other sources have implied that it was heavily modified before, though, and that turned out to be very accurate.
 
do u have a link of that documentation? If not, is it from nintendo or amd? I found a french website also with 2 email claimed to be from AMD and it states a heavenly modified e6760 gpu.. thats why..

But if its official documentation states rv7xx, I;ll pass.
 
Orionas said:
do u have a link of that documentation? If not, is it from nintendo or amd? I found a french website also with 2 email claimed to be from AMD and it states a heavenly modified e6760 gpu.. thats why..

But if its official documentation states rv7xx, I;ll pass.
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I was one of few that got the e6760 response from an AMD rep via email. The fact that 4-5 people from various locations were emailing AMD (all different days and times), about the gpu and got the same response is pretty telling.

Either a few reps at AMD got together and decided to lie about this, or we all got an email response from the same rep who was lying. Or...the responses were based on fact. Also, after these few emails came in asking for the GPU, the response became very vague. As if the NDA police made a call?
 
Tron#1 said:
can we just give up now. no one is gonna have the answers. nintendo isnt going to release the specs. lets jsut enjoy the games. like i could see if we had a chance of figuring the GPU/CPU out but at this point it seems like everyone is just throwing out guesses. its been fun but there becomes a time when you realize you have been defeated... yes guys nintendo won. we wont know what the finalized specs are for this system.
Click to expand...

I have. We are never going to get any closer and it really doesnt matter at this point. We have a 172-352 glfop gpu with 32 mb of edram, 2 GB ram and a tri-core cpu at 1.2 Ghz. Really nothing left unless you just dont want ball park numbers.

No special secret sauce, it just is what it is at this point.... Pretty impressive machine for the amount of power its using.

Orionas said:
do u have a link of that documentation? If not, is it from nintendo or amd? I found a french website also with 2 email claimed to be from AMD and it states a heavenly modified e6760 gpu.. thats why..

But if its official documentation states rv7xx, I;ll pass.
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its was fake. no one from amd would have any idea what the wiiu was based on. think about it for a second....
 
Orionas said:
do u have a link of that documentation? If not, is it from nintendo or amd? I found a french website also with 2 email claimed to be from AMD and it states a heavenly modified e6760 gpu.. thats why..

But if its official documentation states rv7xx, I;ll pass.
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http://www.vgleaks.com/world-premiere-wii-u-specs/

Current features are modeled after OpenGL and the AMD r7xx series of graphics processors.
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The features listed above that are essentially a copy and paste of the R700 features on AMD's site.
 
This was a rumor though, I remember many rumors. VGleaks got a devkit in a point, but it was one of the early ones.

The final hardware has nothing to do with the early devs. Anyway, 352 gflops gpu is not the best, but its something better, especially if they use the gpu to light some cpu works.. I hope for 400-450gflops instead. To give me confidence. Its not a speculation, its a wish.

But I do find it extremly expensive for an rv7 chip, to cost arround 40bucks per wii U (as nintendo claims) I smell 100bucks, wii U price reduction after ps4 get announced. (Because ur results doesnt make me feel wii U worths 300-350, but 180-220 instead).

ps: How much the controller cost to nintendo overall? 50-70 bucks? Not as a retail...
 
Orionas said:
This was a rumor though, I remember many rumors. VGleaks got a devkit in a point, but it was one of the early ones.
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That's not a rumor.

Orionas said:
The final hardware has nothing to do with the early devs. Anyway, 352 gflops gpu is not the best, but its something better, especially if they use the gpu to light some cpu works.. I hope for 400-450gflops instead. To give me confidence. Its not a speculation, its a wish.
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IMO that's a waste of rendering power if that's all the performance it has.

Orionas said:
But I do find it extremly expensive for an rv7 chip, to cost arround 40bucks per wii U (as nintendo claims) I smell 100bucks, wii U price reduction after ps4 get announced. (Because ur results doesnt make me feel wii U worths 300-350, but 180-220 instead).
Click to expand...

I must have missed something as I don't recall Nintendo claiming specific costs for parts. And whose results are you talking about?

Orionas said:
ps: How much the controller cost to nintendo overall? 50-70 bucks? Not as a retail...
Click to expand...

We don't know, but that's around what I would estimate.
 
bgassassin said:
That's not a rumor.



IMO that's a waste of rendering power if that's all the performance it has.
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Hmm.. blu and other sources have implied that fixed functions is not the customization for Latte. Is there such a thing as programmable shaders built just for handling lighting ans such? Perhaps like the special CUs in the PS4?
 
lwilliams3 said:
There is documentation that bluntly stated that the processor is based on the rv7xx series. Other sources have implied that it was heavily modified before, though, and that turned out to be very accurate.
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I see. Which series did the HD5550 belong to?

bgassassin said:
http://www.vgleaks.com/world-premiere-wii-u-specs/



The features listed above that are essentially a copy and paste of the R700 features on AMD's site.
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I wonder what a game with nothing but 8192 x 8192 textures would look and run like.
 
krizzx said:
I wonder what a game with nothing but 8192 x 8192 textures would look and run like.
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Not necessarily much different than games done without it.

See, 8192x89192 support is there for things like Megatexture. The idea is above all simplifying workflow and making it easier on creative types to pack detail in without having to clip it over and over on separate maps.

This way makes it kinda like Z-Brush, instead you're not painting normal maps over 3D poligon models but texturing everything with via huge ass skinning textures.
 
Nintendo website claims an AMD radeon gpu but rv700 generation of chipsets is ATI radeon brand. I think amd attached their brand into the newer chipsets, after rv7xx. You can read that on Wiki as well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_R700

Maybe thats irrelevant for nintendo, but if companies want to be very typical and polite between their relationships, nintendo should use the ATI brand instead of AMD code. But this is what nintendo says: AMD Radeon™-based High Definition GPU.

We also know that AMD stopped supporting the rv700 and older chipsets, maybe they wanted to get reed of ATI branding totally. You may say that its totally modified, but you also say thats specs are copy pasted from rv7. So it could conflict with the branding, even if they chosed it as a base chip.
 
akmcbroom said:
I was one of few that got the e6760 response from an AMD rep via email. The fact that 4-5 people from various locations were emailing AMD (all different days and times), about the gpu and got the same response is pretty telling.

Either a few reps at AMD got together and decided to lie about this, or we all got an email response from the same rep who was lying. Or...the responses were based on fact. Also, after these few emails came in asking for the GPU, the response became very vague. As if the NDA police made a call?
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Yeah I got the same response.

Not sure why they picked that gpu if they were just making it up. I didn't exactly bait them or anything. Still, clearly wasn't true. Maybe it was just GAF>Internet>AMD Customer Services>GAF>Internet. You know, that old chestnut ;)
 
lostinblue said:
Yes, for them it's all about fitting stuff into holes.
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images


sorry I cant add anything substantial to the actual discussion
 
AMD branded chips are from 6xxx series... r800 (5xxx) was also ATI brand

I do have some objections with the rv7, but if you say so...
 
lwilliams3 said:
Hmm.. blu and other sources have implied that fixed functions is not the customization for Latte. Is there such a thing as programmable shaders built just for handling lighting ans such? Perhaps like the special CUs in the PS4?
Click to expand...

That was along the lines of my thinking when I proposed my view of an alternate design to a more traditional. That they would allocate shaders for those type of tasks. Looking at the die it seems like it's going to depend on what those double blocks do and probably O and R.

Orionas said:
Nintendo website claims an AMD radeon gpu but rv700 generation of chipsets is ATI radeon brand. I think amd attached their brand into the newer chipsets, after rv7xx. You can read that on Wiki as well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_R700

Maybe thats irrelevant for nintendo, but if companies want to be very typical and polite between their relationships, nintendo should use the ATI brand instead of AMD code. But this is what nintendo says: AMD Radeon™-based High Definition GPU.

We also know that AMD stopped supporting the rv700 and older chipsets, maybe they wanted to get reed of ATI branding totally. You may say that its totally modified, but you also say thats specs are copy pasted from rv7. So it could conflict with the branding, even if they chosed it as a base chip.
Click to expand...

Orionas said:
AMD branded chips are from 6xxx series... r800 (5xxx) was also ATI brand

I do have some objections with the rv7, but if you say so...
Click to expand...

That doesn't mean anything. ArtX made the GPU for Gamecube, were bought by ATi, and ATi put their own logo on GC even though they didn't make the GPU. It's really the same thing. You shouldn't get hung up on when what name was used.
 
bgassassin said:
That was along the lines of my thinking when I proposed my view of an alternate design to a more traditional. That they would allocate shaders for those type of tasks. Looking at the die it seems like it's going to depend on what those double blocks do and probably O and R.
Click to expand...

I thought people were getting the idea that this was an expensive chip, from the guy at chipworks, who said it was an impressive chip, that was probably pricey. He gave a price, but i don't recall.
 
ozfunghi said:
I thought people were getting the idea that this was an expensive chip, from the guy at chipworks, who said it was an impressive chip, that was probably pricey. He gave a price, but i don't recall.
Click to expand...
Yes, this:

Chipworks notes said:
1. This GPU is custom.
2. If it was based on ATI/AMD or a Radeon-like design, the chip would carry die marks to reflect that. Everybody has to recognize the licensing. It has none. Only Renesas name which is a former unit of NEC.
3. This chip is fabricated in a 40 nm advanced CMOS process at TSMC and is not low tech
4. For reference sake, the Apple A6 is fabricated in a 32 nm CMOS process and is also designed from scratch. It’s manufacturing costs, in volumes of 100k or more, about $26 - $30 a pop. Over 16 months degrade to about $15 each
a. Wii U only represents like 30M units per annum vs iPhone which is more like 100M units per annum. Put things in perspective.
5. This Wii U GPU costs more than that by about $20-$40 bucks each making it a very expensive piece of kit. Combine that with the IBM CPU and the Flash chip all on the same package and this whole thing is closer to $100 a piece when you add it all up
6. The Wii U main processor package is a very impressive piece of hardware when its said and done.
Click to expand...
 
ozfunghi said:
I thought people were getting the idea that this was an expensive chip, from the guy at chipworks, who said it was an impressive chip, that was probably pricey. He gave a price, but i don't recall.
Click to expand...

?

We weren't talking about price. Orianas said:

Anyway, 352 gflops gpu is not the best, but its something better, especially if they use the gpu to light some cpu works.
Click to expand...

Which is why I said it would be a waste of rendering power if that's all there is to the performance.
 
bgassassin said:
We weren't talking about price. Orianas said:
Orionas said:
Anyway, 352 gflops gpu is not the best, but its something better, especially if they use the gpu to light some cpu works.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Not that, this:

Orionas said:
But I do find it extremly expensive for an rv7 chip, to cost arround 40bucks per wii U (as nintendo claims) I smell 100bucks, wii U price reduction after ps4 get announced. (Because ur results doesnt make me feel wii U worths 300-350, but 180-220 instead).
Click to expand...
 
lostinblue said:
Yes, this
1. This GPU is custom.
2. If it was based on ATI/AMD or a Radeon-like design, the chip would carry die marks to reflect that. Everybody has to recognize the licensing. It has none. Only Renesas name which is a former unit of NEC.
3. This chip is fabricated in a 40 nm advanced CMOS process at TSMC and is not low tech
4. For reference sake, the Apple A6 is fabricated in a 32 nm CMOS process and is also designed from scratch. It’s manufacturing costs, in volumes of 100k or more, about $26 - $30 a pop. Over 16 months degrade to about $15 each
a. Wii U only represents like 30M units per annum vs iPhone which is more like 100M units per annum. Put things in perspective.
5. This Wii U GPU costs more than that by about $20-$40 bucks each making it a very expensive piece of kit. Combine that with the IBM CPU and the Flash chip all on the same package and this whole thing is closer to $100 a piece when you add it all up
6. The Wii U main processor package is a very impressive piece of hardware when its said and done.
:
Click to expand...

and what about this http://www.nintendo.com/wiiu/features/tech-specs/

and this http://www.amd.com/uk/products/desktop/graphics/ati-radeon-hd-5000/Pages/ati-radeon-hd-5000.aspx

Maybe they pointing the base chipset they used for it.

And how about that
bgassassin said:
http://www.vgleaks.com/world-premiere-wii-u-specs/



The features listed above that are essentially a copy and paste of the R700 features on AMD's site.
Click to expand...

I believe wii U gpu needs a re-review. What if the wii U gpu uses AMD based gpu technology (not ATI). I pointed this out, because in every page I read about rv7... But it conflicts, so there is a confusion. Is the entire area of the GPU explained? Or it may hide more spus or other features.
 
Orionas said:
I believe wii U gpu needs a re-review. What if the wii U gpu uses AMD based gpu technology (not ATI). I pointed this out, because in every page I read about rv7... But it conflicts, so there is a confusion. Is the entire area of the GPU explained? Or it may hide more spus or other features.
Click to expand...

Nintendo documentation references it as N7, which N is probably for Nintendo and 7 is for the RV7XX series from ATI/AMD.
 
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