http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47802013&postcount=996
I think the GPU is getting tweaked also.
Tweaked as in already happened months ago.
PS4 Ram vs. Durango Ram: How big of a difference does it make?
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47802013&postcount=996
I think the GPU is getting tweaked also.
Tweaked as in already happened months ago.
IHaveCandy
Banned
I find this hard to believe. You don't just double the raw performance of your CPU out of nowhere.
We'll find out soon enough won't we?
That will make more sense, and would up the 720 to beast status, except maybe this could amp the bandwidth issue if there is one.
If the cpu rumor is true, it simply means that it will be handling more physics and compute jobs thus freeing some resources on the gpu to be used for rendering/graphics. Its likely the feel that the more complex physics work is still suited to the cpu, hence the reason for the upgrade.
I'm sure the AMD engineers worked hard on it for months, they didn't just wake up one day and BAM!, 2x the FLOPZ
TaroYamada
Member
Durango, Ram? Sony has an uphill battle ahead of them, the 720 will be two Chrysler vehicles taped together, if rumors are true.
For real though, I don't think we know 720's specs outside of rumors. I personally think some of those rumors are true but only time will tell for sure.
For real though, I don't think we know 720's specs outside of rumors. I personally think some of those rumors are true but only time will tell for sure.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Xbox 720 comes with a free 2014 Dodge Ram.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
The rumored specs never specifically stated that Durango was using the same thing as Jaguar cores. So it's probably always been more powerful than PS4's CPU alone and not something that just recently got updated.
We're talking about 100 GFLOPS vs. 200 GFLOPS of difference, if true. It's marginal at best, especially when compared to the 1.2 TF vs. 1.8 TF difference in GPU.
Microsoft probably wanted a beefier CPU due to their feature aspirations, they're rumored to be using 2 cores for this purpose which is a very large dedication of resources.
I remember GopherD stating that now all signs point to 1 core or less.
That was for the PS4 I believe.
Ah okay, my mistake. I must've misread it.
Im not sure how well Physics is suited to the rumoured FMA though.
We shall see won't we. The FMA is not the sole source of floating point performance in a cpu is it. I am pretty sure they are not customizing the cpu to that extent just because, so I would expect several customization to make it work. The same thing was done on the 360, with the extensive customization to the VMX128 units. That is what basically handles most physics ops on the 360. I imagine that is at least part of their intent here.
But AVX is already pretty suited to do that kind of stuff, and it comes with any modern x86 CPU (modern being the past year or so).
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
The biggest difference between the PS4 and what we know of durango is the GPU. The ram won't make that great a difference in the end.
Hence why the rumor is that it is a 256bit AVX instead of the 128bit part in a vanilla jaguar core.
Thats a pretty major difference and would require a lot of rejigging of the pipeline. Not sure if it would be worth it with GPGPU as well.
This isn't actually true. The CAS latency has risen, but CAS latency is measured in clocks. In terms of time (ns), latency has actually dropped.
Wikipedia has some timing examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAS_latency#Memory_timing_examples
IHaveCandy
Banned
Does that mean since clock speed has risen, more clocks are occurring in the lower latency time than before?
Well if they are doing then I am sure they would have checked the viabilty of using it. These consoles are not designed by dummies, they are designed by some of the smartest engineers in the industry. If they feel that they want to improve the cpu for physics work, I am sure they would have put a lot of thought into making it usable.
Look I am not interested in comparing the durango and the ps4. I am simply looking at the choices they made and try to see the benefit of those choices. Simple as.
A crazy scenario would be if the Steam Box does decently and can keep up with Sony's specs. Then you'd have multi-plat titles be made for PC, PS3, Steam Box without having to design exclusively for the lowest version, Durango.
Even without Steambox, multi-plat titles now look better on PC all the time. Maybe PS4 will start getting some of those advantages?
Even without Steambox, multi-plat titles now look better on PC all the time. Maybe PS4 will start getting some of those advantages?
What sort of differences b/w the GPUs? I haven't read anything about what the differences are, but it's hard to notice any info when it's all RAM vs RAM.
The ps4 has 50% more FLOPs than the durango (1.2tf vs 1.8tf). It also has more texture unit and twice the ROPs (16 vs 32), though on that last point, I still don't see the need for that, given the resolution and framerate the will be targeting. Even more so now that yoshida has ruled out a 4k gaming.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
In addition to faster memory bandwidth, the GPU in PS4 also has 32 ROPs, twice as much as is said to be in XB3
The net effect of that should favor sonys system to a good degree in terms of first party games vs microsoft 1st party games
The net effect of that should favor sonys system to a good degree in terms of first party games vs microsoft 1st party games
twice as many ROPS can fill twice as fast, regardless of resolution (but dependent on bandwidth). So even at lower reso's it will fill twice as fast as the 720 if all 32 are being used.
I literally cannot even parse this, but I'll just rephrase it and hopefully it will make sense.
If you have RAM 1 with clock1 with a data latency of 9 clock cycles,
If you have RAM 2 with clock2 which toggles at half of the rate of clock1, and has a latency of 8 clock cycles,
it is quite clear that the latency of RAM 1 is less than the latency of RAM 2.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
It doesn't work that way but I am not getting into that. A cursory search of gpu reviews will show you what I am saying. And when you say "it will fill twice as fast" what exactly do you mean.
If your using all 32 ROPS, then you should get the theoretical 2x fill rate of the 720 no?.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
No it didn't. It could of always been like that. The VGleaks article was pretty vague about it. Also vgleaks is posting something next week I believe about Durango's CPU.
Looking at the cards they are derived from (Cape Verde with additional 2CUs and Pitcairn with 2CUs compared to 7850) the fill rate (texel and pixel) is double for PS4. However, that's the comparative way of looking at it. Overall, both XB3 and PS4 have reached a place where the fill rate should be more than adequate for next gen.
. Though the texture unit and hence the texel fillrate are not double in this case.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
Source? Why do you think that?
Yea I think VGleaks has been intentionally holding stuff back, so they have more to post, and therefor more hits to gain. They don't want to blow their whole load in one go. I wonder if they have any other additional info on how PS4's GPU is enhanced for compute.
You believe the GPU on Durango won't be clocked higher as well?
I don't think much will change from the Durango Conference, you cannot just willy nilly increase clocks, they have TDP that they have to meet, and also a voltage. There is not going to be a significant over clock happening (>20%) imo.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
From what I understand is there not clocking the CPU higher. BG said they were adding an additional VMX unit or something...? Said they did the same thing with 360's CPU.
Clocking the GPU and CPU higher is going to cause heating problems. I definitely don't think they want another RROD issue and have another console with a 67% failure rate. Also as the above poster said, you have to keep the TDP in mind too.
exactly
SolidSnakex
Member
bgassassin also said that the PS4 still has the edge in terms of raw power, but the gap really isn't that big. So it's pretty much like some of the rumors we've heard that the consoles are extremely similar. Which probably has most multiplatform developers jumping up and down with excitement after what they went through with the current gen.
twinturbo2
butthurt Heat fan
(Am I doing this right?)
phosphor112
Banned
They have the same amount of RAM, but the bandwidth allows more ram to be accessed at one time.
Bandwidth affects post processing, anti aliasing, stuff like that.
Bandwidth affects post processing, anti aliasing, stuff like that.
It's significantly faster, that's always good. But also significant, is how RAM will be reserved/divided up. There are rumors that a version of Windows 8 (another subject entirely) will run the 720, and that Kinect will also reserve some memory (?). It seems like Sony is going following the tradition of a real-time, console OS, which would widen the disparity between the two consoles.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
Your right about the 1st part, but wrong about the 2nd. The bandwidth will still play a big part, while the GPU will still be the biggest difference.
yet this was before PS4 was upgraded to 8gb of RAM. RAM amount was supposed to be one of Durango's advantages, now its looking to have less available RAM then PS4. I still think that one of the biggest reasons the difference will be a decent amount, decent not a lot, is because of Durango's OS overhead. 2-3gb of RAM and 2 CPU cores is a lot, vs PS4 .5 core reserved(less than 1 core according to Gopher) and the rumored 1gb or less of RAM for the OS. ANd yes I know Durango's CPU is rumored to have twice the flops of Orbis's, and this is probably the reason they did that.
Before all that PS4 is slightly to a little more then slightly more powerful, but after all that, the difference in disparity between the two consoles is definitely widened even further.
I really think its going to be a PS2 vs Xbox situation again, instead of a GC vs Xbox situation. Mainly because PS4 RAM got upgraded and Durango OS overhead is high.
yea assuming they don't do something crazy with the GPU. I'm already assuming that Durango's CPU does have twice the flops. Remember PS4's GPU is said to be enhanced and highly modified, principally for compute(I still think 4CU's are enhanced for compute, there just not separate from the other 14).
Assuming the current specs don't change of course.
I still remember thuway's comment on Sony having to launch in 2014 in order to have 8GB GDDR5 available.
are you really going to cache that weird syrian import beer you're not going to drink again for at least a year?
BoboBrazil
Member
The PS4 is the way to go. Best multiplatform games and best first party efforts(what was shown isn't all that is being worked on, the best is being held for e3). MS has shifted focus over to trying to be a media center with way too much focus on kinect. First party efforts were basically just Forza and Halo and now even Bungie left so Halo games will fall off considerably quality wise. The PS4 will also get the most Japanese support. I expect some difference in 3rd party releases(a bigger difference than what is currently going on between 360 and PS3) with first party games from Sony killing anything MS can put out. Not really sure why someone would be supportive of Microsoft of this point with the rumors out there and their previous history over the last few years.