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[TryHardShounen]

Surprised this isn't a Kotaku article.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

As a gay guy, I was never bothered in any way by Persona 4, Yosuke, or... anything?

I realized, even with English localization and naturalization of tone, it's about a bunch of Japanese high school students, in modern Japanese pop culture?

I'm not sure every piece of fiction has to be constructed like an afterschool special in order to "educate".

This too. And let's be real, Persona 4 does have some really heartwarming "after-school" messages that are well delivered. The author of this article probably didn't finish Kanji's S-link, or understand that homophobic characters are allowed to exist in non-homophobic stories. Yosuke's childish fear of Kanji was an opportunity for growth, and we were definitely meant to laugh at his insecurity, not cheer him on.

 

[bonercop]

I'll just have to disagree with the way you two perceives the game's intentions then.

Fair enough. It seems that Replicant actually does think what you accused him off, so... guess I'm the one full of shit.

To clarify my own position, though: I really don't care what the author intent was in the slightest, nor do I think that's a very interesting discussion. I'm also not trying to suggest that P4 carries an anti-gay message. It clearly doesn't.

All I'm saying is that the notion that P4's portrayal of homosexuality can be a tad problematic might have some merit. Much like the way P4 portrays it's female characters can be problematic(every single additional bonus thing they've done in the series involves the girls being half-naked, for instance).

edit: mumei's post sums up how i feel pretty well

 

[Sophia]

Well, you're the one who brought up "I'm transgender and I'm not offended about this" as if it's a cool thing. And how is it a progress when half of the thread was basically defending the game, making fun of the author by calling her "delusional", "bring her bias", or "Only wrote it to be sensationalist" and never once make an attempt at understanding why she may have come from?

We kinda mentioned this in the Persona community thread actually. The author wasn't attacked or made fun of being biased. They were attacked because they failed to do the research. If you're going to argue a point as Carolyn has, you should be prepared to do that.

Not trying to defend the comments, as some of the Gamespot comments are absolutely vile, but just understanding where the posters are coming from.

As for my comment about being transgendered, it's kinda missing what I was saying; I'm not offended because the story isn't written to offend me. It'd be different if the game was blatently attacking transsexualism and homosexuality, but it's not. It's just a character being represented realistically in a story. It'd be like saying Harry Potter is an attack on Christianity because of a comment Lord Voldemort makes.

I did have some problems with Persona 4's handling of Kanji and Naoto (and I also thought that the scenes with the Shadow Naoto (which supposedly reveal the character's innermost desires, if I'm remembering right) and the eventual explanation rang false); I would have preferred that Kanji actually be gay instead of seeing them back away from that, that Kanji's issues with his masculinity were handled better, that Naoto's gender issues to actually be treated with seriousness rather than what it was (and worse for me, that they hinted at seriousness and then failed to follow through), and that it not include some of the more mildly annoying stuff she pointed out.

I think that these problems are easily overlooked, though, in that the problems are in the subtext and the implications of these choices, and there's relatively little (Yosuke, aside) overtly problematic stuff. I don't think the game is anti-gay - I think that implies a level of mens rea that I don't think exists here - but it could certainly have been better.

I'm willing to excuse the little problematic stuff simply because of how Atlus handled it in Catherine with Erica and the likes. It shows they were trying to be tasteful about it, even if their execution wasn't perfect.

 

[DR2K]

His

Spoiler

shadow self

was VERY homosexual. The story wouldn't progress until he admitted that it was a part of him.

 

[firehawk12]

Hah, I wrote something about this way back in 2009:
http://bitmob.com/articles/boys-wear-blue-girls-wear-pink-persona-4-and-queer-subjectivity

Having played the game for a third time recently, I've come to the conclusion that Kanji isn't gay and that by insisting that pursuing fashion or sewing is somehow "queer" is as homophobic as Yosuke basically calling him a fag throughout the game.

He questions his sexuality because he doesn't fit the gender norms and internalizes his self-doubt as supposed homosexuality. There's also the new epilogue in Golden that normalizes him, and whether or not you call that a retcon is a whole other issue, but I feel like it's a confirmation that he felt marginalized because everyone he grew up with thought that "sewing = gay".

Reading my old thoughts, I compared Kanji to Niles and Frasier Crane from Frasier - characters who are effete and not "masculine" (BEER SPORTS VIOLENCE) but are most definitely heterosexual. If you want to insist that Kanji is gay, then you have to say that the Crane brothers are the most closeted men in American TV history.

As for Naoto... I think I've softened on her as well, not only because of the Christmas event and new epilogue (either she has a... growth spurt or she stops binding), but I'm more inclined to believe that she was trying to live up to expectations as well rather than think she was trans. She dressed like a boy because people wouldn't respect women, let alone a girl... not because she wanted to or felt like a man.

Whether or not they chickened out by making her romance-able and ultimately making her feminine in the new ending in Golden is another thing entirely. Perhaps they could have made Naoto a true trans character, but I feel like that wasn't their intention.

And when we consider Catherine and its trans character, they are clearly capable and willing to go there. Naoto just isn't that person and trying to insist that she is trans feels as destructive as denying trans identities.

 

[Replicant]

Is like saying that Archie Bunker was supposed to be taken seriously because he was the Dad of the show.

You really don't understand how mindset actually works? When the line is being treated of a joke, it's implied that it's actually harmless instead of not okay.

You also don't need a game to forcefully deal with the issue when it wasn't the intention of the writer. They are free to develop characters however they wish. People misinterpreting the characters and WANTING them to be part of a certain minority isn't really any better.

That is true but that also means that the game is free to be criticized by those who genuinely feels that it has some tasteless choices in regards to some of the dialogues. If you want to argue about freedom then it goes both ways.

I did have some problems with Persona 4's handling of Kanji and Naoto (and I also thought that the scenes with the Shadow Naoto (which supposedly reveal the character's innermost desires, if I'm remembering right) and the eventual explanation rang false); I would have preferred that Kanji actually be gay instead of seeing them back away from that, that Kanji's issues with his masculinity were handled better, that Naoto's gender issues to actually be treated with seriousness rather than what it was (and worse for me, that they hinted at seriousness and then failed to follow through), and that it not include some of the more mildly annoying stuff she pointed out.

I think that these problems are easily overlooked, though, in that the problems are in the subtext and the implications of these choices, and there's relatively little (Yosuke, aside) overtly problematic stuff. I don't think the game is anti-gay - I think that implies a level of mens rea that I don't think exists here - but it could certainly have been better.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts about the game. I don't think it's terribly bad or meant to offend but to deny that there are some questionable choices made is outright denial.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Why was nobody praising persona 2: innocent sin when it came out with a bisexual protagonist? Catherine also had a extremely well written transgender character. If Atlus wanted kanji to be gay and wanted naoto to be transgender they would have done it.

 

[CSX]

His

Spoiler

shadow self

was VERY homosexual. The story wouldn't progress until he admitted that it was a part of him.

Yes but when kanji accepted him, he said "it wasnt about a matter of guys or chicks" Its about his insecurities and fears of being rejected which stems back to him liking feminine hobbies and being treated rudely by girls in his childhood for it.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

when an author is only ever capable of bringing up homosexuality to make fun of it, continuously, in different contexts, I'd say one might have a point calling their portrayal of homosexuality a tad problematic.

Not necessarily. But what is included in the game will be seen by many people and with those, they'll get whatever the game is telling them. And the game was telling them that "Ew, I don't want near a gay guy because he may rape me" and the circle just perpetuating on and on. What do you think is the base of homophobia? It's straight guys afraid that gay guys might make a move on them.

I think you guys are ignoring the moments in the game that don't bring up Kanji's sexuality to make fun of it. Scenes like this one or others like when Chie reprimands Yosuke for making fun of it.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

You really don't understand how mindset actually works? When the line is being treated of a joke, it's implied that it's actually harmless instead of not okay.

The heck? I'm pretty sure many comedians would disaagre with you.

 

[Kai Dracon]

This too. And let's be real, Persona 4 does have some really heartwarming "after-school" messages that are well delivered. The author of this article probably didn't finish Kanji's S-link, or understand that homophobic characters are allowed to exist in non-homophobic stories. Yosuke's childish fear of Kanji was an opportunity for growth, and we were definitely meant to laugh at his insecurity, not cheer him on.

Yeah, this is an issue I see crop of frequently. A character with behavior considered inappropriate in real life does not mean the fiction is endorsing that behavior. At a certain point, being paranoid about that turns those kinds of behaviors into the boogeyman.

If I were critiquing Persona 4, I would leave Yosuke as he is and the way he gets chided. At most I would say Kanji could have been more developed and open - but the way it's handled seems realistic for what I know of Japanese culture right now.

And Naoto, I saw no problem with at all. I thought her arc and motivations were interesting and well done, when one sees just what the true story is.

 

[Sophia]

The heck? I'm pretty sure many comedians would disaagre with you.

Yeah, if jokes were that harmful, stand up comedy wouldn't be as funny as it is.

 

[Replicant]

The heck? I'm pretty sure many comedians would disaagre with you.

Considering how many comedians make their living by making fun of minorities or the disabled I won't be surprised.

 

[buddha0991]

Why was nobody praising persona 2: innocent sin when it came out with a bisexual protagonist? Catherine also had a extremely well written transgender character. If Atlus wanted kanji to be gay and wanted naoto to be transgender they would have done it.

9, you and I both know that Persona 2 doesn't exist

 

[Jamix012]

And I'll tell you to stop telling me what I think is tasteless or not tasteless.

If you are not a gay man and has never experienced bigotry due to your sexuality then you have no idea how damaging accusation like that for gay guys in general.

It doesn't matter that Chie chided him about it. The whole thing was still tasteless and the fact that it was treated as if it's a joke is disgusting.

If we're gonna go that far, everything is likely tasteless and disgusting to somebody. The game didn't express what Yosuke did as part of its own message, in fact it basically did quite the opposite.
Your complaint is basically like saying if a game constructed a character similar to Hitler with obvious things pointing to it being a jab at Hitler that it would be offensive that the character existed because he stated he hates Jews.

 

[bonercop]

I think you guys are ignoring the moments in the game that don't bring up Kanji's sexuality to make fun of it. Scenes like this one or others when Chie reprimands Yosuke for making fun of it.

I think you've named all the moments, though! For the rest, it's weird stuff like Yosuke being scared of being butt-raped in Persona 4 Arena.

Speaking of the Chie bit, I think that's literally the only time the game ever acknowledges any kind of tension between Kanji and Yosuke and weirdly enough it's never brought up again after that.

 

[Replicant]

If we're gonna go that far, everything is likely tasteless and disgusting to somebody. The game didn't express what Yosuke did as part of its own message, in fact it basically did quite the opposite.
Your complaint is basically like saying if a game constructed a character similar to Hitler with obvious things pointing to it being a jab at Hitler that it would be offensive that the character existed because he stated he hates Jews.

Hitler comparison is totally apt because Hitler is considered a protagonist in most story like Yosuke did in P4. Oh wait....

 

[Bladenic]

Kanji wasn't really gay... just insecure.

Kanji is like the straightest member of the cast except for Rise (she really wanted that MC peen). Yosuke was way gayer than Kanji.

 

[Sophia]

Hitler comparison is totally apt because Hitler is considered a protagonist in most story like Yosuke did in P4. Oh wait....

This is why I used the Lord Voldemort example above. Because it's actually comparable to what some fanatical Christians have said about Harry Potter. =p

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Considering how many comedians make their living by making fun of minorities or the disabled I won't be surprised.

Sigh. What do you thing of Christopher Titus that makes fun of his own clinical depression and, overall, painful childhood? What do you think about Dr Strangelove?... you think that actually endorses war and nuclear deterrance? What do you think of Don Quixote that was a satirical work for most part of the first half of the book and later become about melancholy and deception?

You seem to be the narrow minded one.

 

[Trigger]

For people who think this series is homophobic, I suggest looking up Persona 2 at least.

lol, this post got no love. Jun will always be Persona's true first gay protagonist.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I think you've named all the moments, though! For the rest, it's weird stuff like Yosuke being scared of being butt-raped in Persona 4 Arena.

Speaking of the Chie bit, I think that's literally the only time the game ever acknowledges any kind of tension between Kanji and Yosuke and weirdly enough it's never brought up again after that.

Hmmm.... maybe there's another one although the game never explicitly says it out in the open: the scene where they are invited to Yukiko's inn. Yosuke never acting apprehensive with him sleeping in the same room as Kanji or to the idea of him enjoying a bath-house together with Kanji and the rest of the guys.

...Possibly.

 

[buddha0991]

lol, this post got no love. Jun will always be Persona's true first gay protagonist.

Also, both Kaneko and Satomi Tadashi favor Jun as their choice

Hmmm.... maybe there's another one although the game never explicitly says it out in the open: the scene where they are invited to Yukiko's inn. Yosuke never acting apprehensive with him sleeping in the same room as Kanji or to the idea of him taking a bath together with Kanji.

...Possibly.

This is something no one ever mentions for some reason. He was also set to go take a dip in the jacuzzi with him even. Character growth id say.

 

[Jamix012]

Hitler comparison is totally apt because Hitler is considered a protagonist in most story like Yosuke did in P4. Oh wait....

Actually it is. As a player you're not meant to look up to Yosuke in any way, he's seen as a immature teenage brat who eventually grows over the course of the game. Just because you play as/with someone doesn't mean they're meant to be an representation of a good person.

 

[Replicant]

This is why I used the Lord Voldemort example above. Because it's actually comparable to what some fanatical Christians have said about Harry Potter. =p

He's still a bad guy. Yosuke, OTOH, is a protagonist. He's one of the main characters who basically spout homophobic line that is considered as acceptable joke to others except Chie.

Sigh. What do you thing of Christopher Titus that makes fun of his own clinical depression and, overall, painful childhood? What do you think about Dr Strangelove?... you think that actually endorses war and nuclear deterrance? What do you think of Don Quixote that was a satirical work for most part of the first half of the book and later become about melancholy and deception?

You seem to be the narrow minded one.

I never read/watch any of those titles.

And yeah, it's nice to be name-calling when all things fail.

 

[SpaceBridge]

lol, this post got no love. Jun will always be Persona's true first gay protagonist.

Which P2 is Jun in?

 

[buddha0991]

Which P2 is Jun in?

Innocent Sin

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

9, you and I both know that Persona 2 doesn't exist

I feel like spamming this thread with tetsuyaxjun pictures but I won't

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Which P2 is Jun in?

Both.

Also, this is about Persona 4 so I don't think it's fair to bring other Persona games into this. There's a girl who hangs outside of the classroom in Persona 3, for example, who is in love with Mitsuru and no big deal is made out of it.

 

[Sho Nuff]

Very timely, considering this game came out seven years ago

 

[Sophia]

He's still a bad guy. Yosuke, OTOH, is a protagonist. He's one of the main characters who basically spout homophobic line that is considered as acceptable joke to others except Chie.

I'm just saying, your argument is pretty similar to saying that the quote "There is no good and evil, there is only power...and those too weak to seek it." is a representation that Harry Potter represents Satanist values or something. It's a pretty flawed way of looking at it. You're taking Yosuke's comments completely out of context to support your own opinion.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Very timely, considering this game came out seven years ago

Many people enjoys Persona 4 for the first time with P4 Golden (the lucky bastards)

 

[Jamix012]

Very timely, considering this game came out seven years ago

5 or 4 years actually depending on which release you look at. And Golden came out less than a month ago in Europe.

 

[bonercop]

Hmmm.... maybe there's another one although the game never explicitly says it out in the open: the scene where they are invited to Yukiko's inn. Yosuke never acting apprehensive with him sleeping in the same room as Kanji or to the idea of him taking a bath together with Kanji.

...Possibly.

Interesting. I don't think it stands, though. In the inn, Yosuke wasn't clumped up next to Kanji in a small secluded space. We also don't see what happens after they escape the room Kashiwagi/Hanako were, so we actually have no idea whether Yosuke was even comfortable with the whole thing!

But the real death blow for this interpretation is that Yosuke was still scared of being raped a a couple of months later.

 

[SpaceBridge]

Very timely, considering this game came out seven years ago

Well to be fair, Vita version did come out a few Months ago.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I never read/watch any of those titles.

And yeah, it's nice to be name-calling when all things fail.

Name calling? Sigh. Dude, you can do a google search at least.

But anyway... Don Quixote as a title... Now I feel sorry for you.

 

[buddha0991]

Both.

Also, this is about Persona 4 so I don't think it's fair to bring other Persona games into this. There's a girl who hangs outside of the classroom in Persona 3, for example, who is in love with Mitsuru and no big deal is made out of it.

He is in both, but

Spoiler

hes not as major as a character in Eternal Punishment, along with the rest of the IS crew

 

[Trigger]

Which P2 is Jun in?

Both but,

Spoiler

Tatsuya can only choose him as a lover in Innocent Sin if I understand correctly. EP treats him more like a close friend.

 

[Gonzo The Great]

This discussion is something I'd expect to find on fanfiction.net. Prior to reading this thread, I've never heard anybody accuse Persona 4 of being homophobic, so this is a rather bold claim to make. And I hate to be "that guy", but the Japanese have a totally different attitude towards homosexuality. If you think America is bigoted, just wait until you explore other cultures.

 

[Replicant]

Name calling? Sigh. Dude, you can do a google search at least.

But anyway... Don Quixote as a title... Now I feel sorry for you.

*shrug* Never been a big literature fan. I don't feel sorry for myself, so thanks for feeling sorry for me.

I'm just saying, your argument is pretty similar to saying that the quote "There is no good and evil, there is only power...and those too weak to seek it." is a representation that Harry Potter represents Satanist values or something. It's a pretty flawed way of looking at it. You're taking Yosuke's comments completely out of context to support your own opinion.

Way to twist what I said. How many times do I have to say that I don't think the game is intentionally anti-gay. But there are some tasteless lines contain within it. I can also say that as someone who sports Persona avatar, you'll of course be defending the series no matter what. God forbid the series is slightly criticized.

 

[firehawk12]

Interesting. I don't think it stands, though. In the inn, Yosuke wasn't clumped up next to Kanji in a small secluded space. We also don't see what happens after they escape the room Kashiwagi/Hanako were, so we actually have no idea whether Yosuke was even comfortable with the whole thing!

But the real death blow for this interpretation is that Yosuke was still scared of being raped a a couple of months later.

Yosuke is a homophobic idiot.
Which is only endearing if Kanji isn't gay and Yosuke is just busting Kanji's balls, as it were. Otherwise, he's just a fucking asshole.

(Well, he could be both I guess!)

 

[Laughing Banana]

Interesting. I don't think it stands, though. In the inn, Yosuke wasn't clumped up next to Kanji in a small secluded space. We also don't see what happens after they escape the room Kashiwagi/Hanako were, so we actually have no idea whether Yosuke was even comfortable with the whole thing!

But the real death blow for this interpretation is that Yosuke was still scared of being raped a a couple of months later.

I forgot about it, hmmm.

Anyways, if there is one greatest things that can be derived from this thread for me is my feeling of putting Yosuke as the one I dislike the most amongst the main group in P4/P4G is greatly vindicated, hell yeah!

Way to twist what I said. How many times do I have to say that I don't think the game is intentionally anti-gay. But there are some tasteless lines contain within it. I can also say that as someone who sports Persona avatar, you'll of course be defending the series no matter what. God forbid the series is slightly criticized.

Come on man, judging the value of people's opinion with their avatars is one of the lowest things a person can do in order to promote a healthy discussion :\

 

[Sophia]

Way to twist what I said. How many times do I have to say that I don't think the game is intentionally anti-gay. But there are some tasteless lines contain within it. I can also say that as someone who sports Persona avatar, you'll of course be defending the series no matter what. God forbid the series is slightly criticized.

Psst, I'm largely only arguing on your arguments, not that of others now. I'm well aware of the game's flaws. You'll note I largely agreed with Mumei above despite excusing the minor problems?

Yosuke is a homophobic idiot.
Which is only endearing if Kanji isn't gay and Yosuke is just busting Kanji's balls, as it were. Otherwise, he's just a fucking asshole.

(Well, he could be both I guess!)

Oh make no mistake, Yosuke is an asshole at times. He's a teenager, that's what teenage boys largely act like.

 

[CrazedProfessional]

Wait I'm confused, I thought Kanji wasn't gay and the gay shadow was because he's afraid of being rejected by both genders as in people of both genders see him as a brute and selfish biker criminal guy even though he's more than that?

 

[Fimbulvetr]

She isn't completely off base, though I haven't played the game in years and my perspective has changed greatly, so I can't say to what extent.

I think the article she links to does a better job of talking about Naoto. http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=6088

Ugh. Oh Atlus.

I also think that article was better, but it was kinda reaching. I also don't (mostly) agree with how Erica is percieved.

lol, this post got no love. Jun will always be Persona's true first gay protagonist.

Nobody remembers Jun.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Anyways, if there is one greatest thing that can be derived from this thread is my feeling of putting Yosuke as the one I dislike the most amongst the main group in P4/P4G is vindicated, hell yeah!

Dude, I hate him during all the game. Dunno why somebody would want to hug the bastard.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Wait I'm confused, I thought Kanji wasn't gay and the gay shadow was because he's afraid of being rejected by both genders as in people of both genders see him as a brute and selfish biker criminal guy even though he's more than that?

Basically yeah, he overcompensates things due to how people around him perceives/treats him.

Well, that's how I see it anyways.

Dude, I hate him during all the game. Dunno why somebody would want to hug the bastard.

Hahaha yeah (well, I hugged him because I am such a weakling to sad stuff and when he pulls that Saki-senpai stuff I couldn't help it )

 

[Femmeworth]

I also think that article was better, but it was kinda reaching. I also don't (mostly) agree with how Erica is percieved.

I haven't played Catherine, so I didn't read that part.

 

[firehawk12]

Oh make no mistake, Yosuke is an asshole at times. He's a teenager, that's what teenage boys largely act like.

More specifically, it's also how Japan treats homosexuality in its media and popular culture. Being gay and being effeminate basically give people license to laugh at a character.