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[Grampa Simpson]

I don't think attaching a game to an account negates second hand sales. It makes it a little more convoluted, but certainly doable. For DD games, MS could implement a system where you could "trade" games directly through their online service towards another game. For retail games, Gamestop could have a system set up to remove activations of the game once they get a trade in. Making it available for sale again.

EDIT: Another aspect of the DD service that could be implemented is that publishers could either allow their game to be purchased via traded funds or not. This gives them some options, but it would also test what liquidity does to game sales. Would games with this not allowed have lower sales on average than games with it allowed?

Why would EA or Activision actively want you to be able to trade games with people? If they want to play it they can have the pleasure of owning their own copies without having to impinge on your ability to play that game again later.

Spoiler

In all seriousness, I tend to purchase games with the intent of playing them eventually. I still have PS1 games that I haven't gotten around to. I expect that in 30 years, I'll still be able to play my PS1 games, and my PS2 games, and my N64, Gamecube, Wii, and Wii U games, but the PS3, XBOX, and XBOX 360 games, I'm going to have to keep living systems around to play them on. I'm pretty sure that not even that will save me for the PS4 and Durango, let alone many PC games - well, at least the PC games get cracked eventually, for when the servers handing out the DRM go down forever.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

So basically Super is saying the docs were describing the Beta version of the NextBox.

Interesting

I think he's suggesting that it's just entered the beta phase, it seems too early for final devkits. What we saw in the docs were target specs, which were likely not actual devkit specifications since that hardware probably isn't finalized yet.

 

[artist]

RSX was behind the x360 GPU and that did not matter either.

Dat spin.

it's as good as whats in ps4 mostly, so yes.

More spin.

Btw - here is a german review for the 7790:
http://www.gamestar.de/hardware/gra...7790/test/amd_radeon_hd_7790,660,3010456.html

Pretty good results imho.

all other results confirm that the 7790 is in the same ballpark as a GTX 660 Ti

Oh wow, I'm getting dizzy from this spin.

GTX660 Ti > 7870 > PS4 GPU > 7850 > 7790 > 650Ti > Rumored Durango GPU >= 7770 > 650 > 7750

 

[Reiko]

Dat spin.


More spin.


Oh wow, I'm getting dizzy from this spin.

GTX660 Ti > 7870 > PS4 GPU > 7850 > 7790 > 650Ti > Rumored Durango GPU >= 7770 > 650 > 7750

RSX was behind the Xenos and it didn't matter.

Because you will love The Cell. The Cell is the truth.

 

[fillup]

That would probably mean ps4 = 23~24 fps vs durango = 19 fps.
Hardly the difference some think with the ps4 being 60 fps and durango being 30 fps.

If durango has a 7790 off course.

How i looked this up.
7870 is rated at 2.5 TFlops
7850 is rated at 1.76Tflops.
Ps4 is rated at 1.84 Tflops.

7870 is about 800 Glops more then the ps4.
7850 is about 80 Gflops less then the ps4.

if 800 gflops can increase the framerate from 22.6 to 30.2 fps difference is like 7.6fps.
Then 80 more should be like 0.76 increase of fps.
So should rate ps4 at around 23~24 fps.

I think the 7870 graph is wrong. They got the 1680x1050 mixed up with the 1920x1080 score. It's the ONLY card that shows 1920x1080 scoring better than 1680x1050. That can't be right. I bet the 30.2fps is for 1680x1050 and the 25.9fps is for 1920x1080.

1920x1080 8xAA/16xAF:
7870 = 25.9 fps
7850 = 22.6 fps
7790 = 19.0 fps

So if the Durango GPU is indeed based on the 7790, the performance should be very close to the PS4. Definitely not the huge difference Sony fans were hoping for....lol. HD twins again.

 

[JonathanPower]

That would probably mean ps4 = 23~24 fps vs durango = 19 fps.
Hardly the difference some think with the ps4 being 60 fps and durango being 30 fps.

If durango has a 7790 off course.

How i looked this up.
7870 is rated at 2.5 TFlops
7850 is rated at 1.76Tflops.
Ps4 is rated at 1.84 Tflops.

7870 is about 800 Glops more then the ps4.
7850 is about 80 Gflops less then the ps4.

if 800 gflops can increase the framerate from 22.6 to 30.2 fps difference is like 7.6fps.
Then 80 more should be like 0.76 increase of fps.
So should rate ps4 at around 23~24 fps.

You are assuming the only thing that increases FPS are Tflops, which is wrong. If you have 8xAA and 16xAF, having twice the ROPs is going to make a huge difference for the PS4.

 

[artist]

RSX was behind the Xenos and it didn't matter.

Because you will love The Cell. The Cell is the truth.

So RSX is now behind? Didn't Proelite suggest it had a 67% advantage just a few pages back? Funny how the stance keeps adjusting to the argument.

Also are you suggesting that the Durango CPU will be the Cell of this gen?

Spoiler

The point was that the 360-PS3 comparison is now irrelevant.

 

[Reiko]

So RSX is now behind? Didn't Proelite suggest it had a 67% advantage just a few pages back? Funny how the stance keeps adjusting to the argument.

Also are you suggesting that the Durango CPU will be the Cell of this gen?

Spoiler

The point was that the 360-PS3 comparison is now irrelevant.

Oh no. I thought this was well known.

But if you thought the best looking games on the PS3 was because of the RSX... Then that is laughable.

 

[JonathanPower]

I think the 7870 graph is wrong. They got the 1680x1050 mixed up with the 1920x1080 score. It's the ONLY card that shows 1920x1080 scoring better than 1680x1050. That can't be right. I bet the 30.2fps is for 1680x1050 and the 25.9fps is for 1920x1080.


7870 = 25.9 fps
7850 = 22.6 fps
7790 = 19.0 fps

So if the Durango GPU is indeed based on the 7790, the performance should be very close to the PS4. Definitely not the huge difference Sony fanboys were hoping for....lol. HD twins again.

No. 32ROPs vs 16ROPs, 176GB/sec. vs 68GB/sec, this is going to make a huge difference at 1080p with 4xAA.

 

[statham]

No. 32ROPs vs 16ROPs, 176GB/sec. vs 68GB/sec, this is going to make a huge difference at 1080p with 4xAA.

eh a couple of fps, I'll live.

 

[JonathanPower]

eh a couple of fps, I'll live.

More like twice the FPS if you are fillrate limited on Durango. Or half the resolution.

 

[Reiko]

More like twice the FPS if you are fillrate limited on Durango.

I really don't think it will work that way.

You're also ignoring that performance is on a game to game basis.

 

[JonathanPower]

I really don't think it will work that way.

You're also ignoring that performance is on a game to game basis.

Some things like AA and resolution are really dependant on the fillrate.

 

[statham]

More like twice the FPS if you are fillrate limited on Durango. Or half the resolution.

right

 

[fillup]

No. 32ROPs vs 16ROPs, 176GB/sec. vs 68GB/sec, this is going to make a huge difference at 1080p with 4xAA.

No it won't. The 7790 only has 16 ROPs and 96GB/sec. bandwidth, yet at 1080p 8xAA/16xAF, it is only a few fps less than the 7850/7870. Durango with it's 68GB/102GB/sec ESRAM should be equal if not better.

1920x1080 8xAA/16xAF:
7870 = 25.9 fps
7850 = 22.6 fps
7790 = 19.0 fps

 

[Satchel]

Microsoft already has a licence transfer system.

I wonder if they could implement a lending system where I could "lend" a licence to a gold member on my friend list for say 2 days. Then I can't play it during that 2 day period. Licence automatically comes back after 2 days.

Furthermore, a selling system. I sell my licence to a friend for Microsoft points. Gives us more freedom with digital games, allows us to sell our physical games (assuming rumours about them are true), and Microsoft keeps all the money, while still killing the used game market.

That could help the embrace of a dd only future.

 

[H_Prestige]

RSX was behind the x360 GPU and that did not matter either.

All gamers will be happy I guess.

Yup, because we know durango has a kickass cpu to make up the gpu deficit.

 

[artist]

eh a couple of fps, I'll live.

Only "couple"

 

[dragonelite]

You are assuming the only thing that increases FPS are Tflops, which is wrong. If you have 8xAA and 16xAF, having twice the ROPs is going to make a huge difference for the PS4.

Didn't they decoupled TMU from ROPS?
Really 8xAA we may be lucky with 2~4xAA with these specs.

As far as i know Rops read/write and sample the pixel data not create them.

 

[Biggzy]

Didn't they decoupled TMU from ROPS?
Really 8xAA we may be lucky with 2~4xAA with these specs.

The chances of getting games with 8xMSAA is very slim indeed.

 

[fillup]

Only "couple"

You're a little slow. We're talking about the 7790 now, not the 7770.


1920x1080 8xAA/16xAF:
7870 = 25.9 fps
7850 = 22.6 fps
7790 = 19.0 fps

 

[i-Lo]

Didn't they decoupled TMU from ROPS?
Really 8xAA we may be lucky with 2~4xAA with these specs.

We'll see other methods of AA (mostly FXAA though) that provide comparable results to MSAA but require far less computational power.

Also, what do you mean by "decoupled" TMU and ROPs?

You're a little slow. We're talking about the 7790 now, not the 7770.

And that runs at 1000MHz

 

[artist]

You're a little slow. We're talking about the 7790 now, not the 7770.


1920x1080 8xAA/16xAF:
7870 = 25.9 fps
7850 = 22.6 fps
7790 = 19.0 fps

I'm not. I'm also not making the jump that the Durango GPU is now suddenly at 1.79TFlops with 14CUs, 48TMUs clocked at 1GHz.

The chances of getting games with 8xMSAA is very slim indeed.

Even without using 8xMSAA, you can double the frame-rate going from a 7770 to 7850. (see above Anandtech chart)

 

[StevieP]

I'm not. I'm also not making the jump that the Durango GPU is now suddenly at 1.79TFlops with 14CUs, 48TMUs clocked at 1GHz.

Anyone being reminded of the Wii U speculation threads, all of a sudden?

 

[artist]

Anyone being reminded of the Wii U speculation threads, all of a sudden?

Unfortunately/fortunately I wasnt part of it. Context?

 

[StevieP]

Unfortunately/fortunately I wasnt part of it. Context?

A whole bunch of posters are often a slight bit "too optimistic", given the power envelope and what we know/knew.

 

[Biggzy]

Even without using 8xMSAA, you can double the frame-rate going from a 7770 to 7850. (see above Anandtech chart)

I don't care about that. I am making a point that developers won't be dedicating the amount of bandwidth needed for 8xMSAA, and I am not sure we will be seeing a ton of games with MSAA anyway.

 

[Reiko]

Anyone being reminded of the Wii U speculation threads, all of a sudden?

Nah. There are only ten positive Durango posters in this topic.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I don't care about that. I am making a point that developers won't be dedicating the amount of bandwidth needed for 8xMSAA, and I am not sure we will be seeing a ton of games with MSAA anyway.

I don't even know why people are comparing at 1080p. I wouldn't be surprised if games were targeting 720p.

 

[JonathanPower]

Didn't they decoupled TMU from ROPS?
Really 8xAA we may be lucky with 2~4xAA with these specs.

As far as i know Rops read/write and sample the pixel data not create them.

Well, ROPs are responsible for the AA. In order to feed the ROPs, you need to have enough bandwidth. This is why Durango has half the ROPs. I think 176Gb/sec. is more than enough for running games at 1080p with 4xAA.

 

[artist]

A whole bunch of posters are often a slight bit "too optimistic", given the power envelope and what we know/knew.

Got it, it's understandable behaviour.

I don't care about that. I am making a point that developers won't be dedicating the amount of bandwidth needed for 8xMSAA, and I am not sure we will be seeing a ton of games with MSAA anyway.

That goes without saying. There are also cases with absolutely no AA and the frame-rate is still double.

 

[AgentP]

Any current AMD GPU over 1.2TF and still use DDR3?other than (rumored) 720GPU

The type of memory is kind of irreverent. A GPU has certain capabilities which requires a minimum bandwidth to keep it fed with data.

The question should be what class of GPU can operate well with 68GB/s of shared bandwidth with a 102GB/s dedicated? Is MS expecting >102GB/s effective bandwidth for the GPU or are they looking at something like 68GB/s-102GB/s effective? If the latter they are better off not spending the extra silicon for horsepower they can not use effectively. A 7790 has 96GB/s dedicated video bandwidth, and it could probably use more, it just happens to be maxing out the cheaper 128bit interface using 6Gbps GGDR5 chips.

 

[Cidd]

This thread is all over the place, Now the Durango all of a sudden have a HD 7790 inside?
We have leaks from different sources telling a different story.

Guess some will believe anything at this point.

 

[Reiko]

I don't even know why people are comparing at 1080p. I wouldn't be surprised if games were targeting 720p.

Leaked documents suggest Durango will be targeting 1080p even with current specs.

This thread is all over the place, Now the Durango all of a sudden have a HD 7790 inside?
We have leaks from different sources telling a different story.

Guess some will believe anything at this point.

When you don't announce anything, topics like these are normal. According to MS at the moment, Durango is vaporware.

 

[jaypah]

This thread is all over the place, Now the Durango all of a sudden have a HD 7790 inside?
We have leaks from different sources telling a different story.

Guess some will believe anything at this point.

I don't understand why some people get bent out of shape because others speculate. And the negative all-or-nothing statements..."hey guys, what if..." gets met with "grrrr, people will believe anything!". Shit's crazy. But it's also not surprising.

 

[Reiko]

I don't understand why some people get bent out of shape because others speculate. And the negative all-or-nothing statements..."hey guys, what if..." gets met with "grrrr, people will believe anything!". Shit's crazy. But it's also not surprising.

I find it hilarious because in those past Orbis threads nobody had much of a problem with crazy speculation. You didn't get alot of smug secret sauce responses either.

 

[Satchel]

I find it hilarious because in those past Orbis threads nobody had much of a problem with crazy speculation. You didn't get alot of smug secret sauce responses either.

Gee, I wonder why.

 

[StevieP]

I find it hilarious because in those past Orbis threads nobody had much of a problem with crazy speculation. You didn't get alot of smug secret sauce responses either.

I don't think you're remembering correctly (aka confirmation bias). Every single one of the consoles has suffered through the *exact* same thing in the hardware speculation threads.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Leaked documents suggest Durango will be targeting 1080p even with current specs.

Just like they targeted 720p this generation and looked at what happened. I think they're better off focusing on native 720p and using the extra HP elsewhere since I pretty much bet that most people wouldn't really miss 1080p output other than the hardcore pixel counters and PC gamers.

 

[Reiko]

I don't think you're remembering correctly (aka confirmation bias). Every single one of the consoles has suffered through the *exact* same thing in the hardware speculation threads.

No duh. It's not just for this gen either.

I've been around this dance multiple times.

 

[jaypah]

I don't think you're remembering correctly (aka confirmation bias). Every single one of the consoles has suffered through the *exact* same thing in the hardware speculation threads.

I'm sorry, but out of the 3 the Orbis thread was by far the most civil. It was actually fun to read too because it was more people being jubilant and less negative.

 

[Reiko]

I'm sorry, but out of the 3 the Orbis thread was by far the most civil. It was actually fun to read too because it was more people being jubilant and less negative.

Remember when some posters were getting nervous when Sweetvar26 referred to the Durango project as a "supercomputer"?

It just had to be a "mistranslation".

The door swings both ways.

 

[abadguy]

I don't understand why some people get bent out of shape because others speculate. And the negative all-or-nothing statements..."hey guys, what if..." gets met with "grrrr, people will believe anything!". Shit's crazy. But it's also not surprising.

Because they are fans of the competing console/corporation and as such it's important that it out classes the console being discussed in this thread, and it's very important that you know it outclasses the console being discussed in this thread. Honestly if they are so sure the specs are 100% locked, then why care if others speculate?

 

[jaypah]

Remember when some posters were getting nervous when Sweetvar26 referred to the Durango project as a "supercomputer"?

It just had to be a "mistranslation".

The door swings both ways.

True, there's bullshit on all sides. I think a lot of the tone recently can also be attributed to Sony confirming the PS4 rumor specs to be true. After that people clung to the Durango rumors as also true, along with all of the negative rumors. But like I said earlier, it's to be expected. If you put a gun to my head and made me choose right now I'd have to go PS4 because Sony really has made a great case for themselves. MS needs to get on the ball.

Because they are fans of the competing console/corporation and as such it's important that it out classes the console being discussed in this thread, and it's very important that you know it outclasses the console being discussed in this thread. Honestly if they are so sure the specs are 100% locked, then why care if others speculate?

Interesting. Surely some of the names are known for preferring Sony but my days of calling out fanboys are over. I try to be a better poster these days

 

[Uno Venova]

I don't think you're remembering correctly (aka confirmation bias). Every single one of the consoles has suffered through the *exact* same thing in the hardware speculation threads.

Yeah people claiming that Orbis would have 8GB got a lot of ridicule as well. It's just confirmation bias as you said. I will say Durango threads have much more wishful thinking that Orbis threads, because not as many are happy with the specs, and that wishful thinking annoys some people and makes it a little more edgy.

 

[Reiko]

True, there's bullshit on all sides. I think a lot of the tone recently can also be attributed to Sony confirming the PS4 rumor specs to be true. After that people clung to the Durango rumors as also true, along with all of the negative rumors. But like I said earlier, it's to be expected. If you put a gun to my head and made me choose right now I'd have to go PS4 because Sony really has made a great case for themselves. MS needs to get on the ball.

I feel the same way about PS4.

 

[Klocker]

so targeting 720p/60FPS for both consoles (as speculated for BF4)

here we go... "lowest common denominator! they held back for the lowly Durango!" :lol

Spoiler

can't wait until retail time and games prove MOST people can't tell the f'ing difference when standing in Best Buy

 

[jaypah]

Yeah people claiming that Orbis would have 8GB got a lot of ridicule as well. It's just confirmation bias as you said. I will say Durango threads have much more wishful thinking that Orbis threads, because not as many are happy with the specs, and that wishful thinking annoys some people and makes it a little more edgy.

edgy? Some make sure to put a bullet in any speculation that might raise Durangos power, even when it still wouldn't be matching Orbis...that's crazy person territory right there.

 

[artist]

Remember when some posters were getting nervous when Sweetvar26 referred to the Durango project as a "supercomputer"?

It just had to be a "mistranslation".

The door swings both ways.

I wasnt around that time so I cant comment. But once we knew the gist of both consoles, its but natural to considered a mistranslation. How can one sanely call the rumored Durango spec a super-computer by any standards? (I wouldnt even call 7970/680 as supercomputer class)

Because they are fans of the competing console/corporation and as such it's important that it out classes the console being discussed in this thread, and it's very important that you know it outclasses the console being discussed in this thread. Honestly if they are so sure the specs are 100% locked, then why care if others speculate?

Speculation is fine and dandy but you have to understand that the Durango side of speculation has been more colorful. Dual-APU, secret sauce (hello aegies), CPU beefed up, GPU beefed up, it's an x86+PowerPC with BC design and now finally to a 7790 being in Durango, with absolutely no rumor/source to back it up.

 

[Reiko]

I wasnt around that time so I cant comment. But once we knew the gist of both consoles, its but natural to considered a mistranslation. How can one sanely call the rumored Durango spec a super-computer by any standards? (I wouldnt even call 7970/680 as supercomputer class)


Speculation is fine and dandy but you have to understand that the Durango side of speculation has been more colorful. Dual-APU, secret sauce (hello aegies), CPU beefed up, GPU beefed up, it's an x86+PowerPC with BC design and now finally to a 7790 being in Durango, with absolutely no rumor/source to back it up.

And if any hint of that insanity is confirmed you can bet there will be meltdowns. It is ridiculous how the console wars can transform folk when we were all relatively civil before the leaks started flowing out.