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[LiK]

this game makes me fear baptism.

I tried reading through the thread but I couldn't find the answer. So was there consensus on what the post-credits scene was about?

no consensus. either you believed it was the start of the loop again or the loop is destroyed and Booker is now living happily with Anna. i prefer the latter.

 

[lastflowers]

I think it's more like:

At the time of the baptism, there have been infinite Bookers, but there's only one relevant "path" where he decided to get baptized. And the game's narrative branches out from that single path into two branches: one where he becomes Comstock, and one where he becomes the Booker that we play as. By killing him at the baptism, all of those branches are eliminated at the root. There are still infinite universes before that where he never went to the baptism in the first place.

...if that makes sense, lol.

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This answers one of my main confusions about the ending-ending (him in the room opening the door).

The other one is how Elizabeth can go into the past and destroy the root in the first place. If the path never happens, Elizabeth could never go to that root because she would never have existed.

Unless this goes back to my understanding of quantum (this common explanation of it), that there are different states but only upon observation does the actual even occur. In this sense, only by seeing the story through to the paradoxical conclusion, do we see that this entire branch of possibilities does not happen--that booker never went to the baptism.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Something I meant to ask, what's the deal with the Lutece graves? Are they dead or something?

 

[DMB4237]

Wait, wait, wait.

So Comstock and Booker both experienced the Boxer Rebellion, yet Comstock's Slate recognizes Booker as the one he fought with during it. How?

It's actually Wounded Knee that he's talking about. There was no "Comstock" that fought at Wounded Knee because he was still known as Booker deWitt at that point. Therefore, Slate thinks that Comstock made up the fact that he fought at Wounded Knee.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Presumably because Comstock has aged beyond recognition (and has a sick beard), but Booker still looks similar to how he looked at the time when he and Slate fought together.

The game also mentions that Comstock has accelerated age by the exposure of the Quatum Mumbo Jumbo.

The ironic thing, was that Comstock was telling the truth about his involvement in that battles.

 

[jacksepticeye]

I tried reading through the thread but I couldn't find the answer. So was there consensus on what the post-credits scene was about?

A booker that never tried to get baptised/born again given a chance to live life with Elizabeth properly. Basically none of the columbia shit happens

 

[Gorillaz]

Something I meant to ask, what's the deal with the Lutece graves? Are they dead or something?

I think they explained it in the end but basically Comstack had them killed. Well that universe version of them

 

[Alucrid]

Never mind, must have heard it wrong.

 

[EatChildren]

After going back to Rapture, Booker could have fought a giant purple dinosaur for the end and I would have been happy.

I find myself entertaining ideas of alternate endings where Booker and Elizabeth are not related and they live out the rest of their days together in Paris.

That's another thing. If you really want to hamper the plot, you can easily believe the quantum many worlds implementation renders every action in the game totally irrelevant as nothing is actually accomplished. There will always be a universe where Columbia conquers the world. Always a universe where Booker succeeds. Always a universe where Booker fails. Where he dies. Where Elizabeth dies. An alternative to everything, constant and forever.

So what does Booker actually accomplish?

Spoiler

And I'm just playing devil's advocate because I liked the plot and ending

 

[-COOLIO-]

The big negative for this game is how heavy handed it is with its themes. Theres a really fine line there and they were decent about it most of the time but it was kinda overkill with the commentary on so many issues.

What was the scene that supposedly made the art guy cry?

oddly enough, i still dont know what the game was trying to preach if anything. i didnt think it was heavy handed in the slightest.

 

[LiK]

That's another thing. If you really want to hamper the plot, you can easily believe the quantum many worlds implementation renders every action in the game totally irrelevant as nothing is actually accomplished. There will always be a universe where Columbia conquers the world. Always a universe where Booker succeeds. Always a universe where Booker fails. Where he dies. Where Elizabeth dies. An alternative to everything, constant and forever.

So what does Booker actually accomplish?

Spoiler

And I'm just playing devil's advocate because I liked the plot and ending

Infinite possibilities. Altho I still prefer that Comstock timeline is destroyed from how they set it up in the game.

 

[jacksepticeye]

That's another thing. If you really want to hamper the plot, you can easily believe the quantum many worlds implementation renders every action in the game totally irrelevant as nothing is actually accomplished. There will always be a universe where Columbia conquers the world. Always a universe where Booker succeeds. Always a universe where Booker fails. Where he dies. Where Elizabeth dies. An alternative to everything, constant and forever.

So what does Booker actually accomplish?

Spoiler

And I'm just playing devil's advocate because I liked the plot and ending

Yeah people talked about that. Your actions are no your own, and the choices you make never matter. Hence the head or tails test. It's always heads no matter what you do.
Also it's more of a tongue in cheek remark against games these days with supposed choices, where in the end it's always the same

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

oddly enough, i still dont know what the game was trying to preach if anything. i didnt think it was heavy handed in the slightest.

I believe that Levine himself said that didn't want to preach and that the actual theme of the game is hidden behind the political and religious commentary...

 

[-COOLIO-]

I tried reading through the thread but I couldn't find the answer. So was there consensus on what the post-credits scene was about?

non baptised booker chilling with this kid since comstock never took her.

 

[Odrion]

oddly enough, i still dont know what the game was trying to preach if anything. i didnt think it was heavy handed in the slightest.

I don't think it really had a message as it had the problem of having the two factions be incredibly one dimensional. All the citizens before the shit hit the fan only had dialogue that was pretty much "Haha, those poors and minorities sure are horrible savages. Am I right guys? or "Hey I heard the Vox are evil! Woah!"

 

[EatChildren]

Infinite possibilities. Altho I still prefer that Comstock timeline is destroyed from how they set it up in the game.

Yeah people talked about that. Your actions are no your own, and the choices you make never matter. Hence the head or tails test. It's always heads no matter what you do.
Also it's more of a tongue in cheek remark against games these days with supposed choices, where in the end it's always the same

This is why I liked it. There's an absolutiveness about the whole plot and themes going on the game. The theme of eternity and godliness especially. There's a powerful essense in how it all comes together. A strength in meaningless.

 

[jacksepticeye]

I think they explained it in the end but basically Comstack had them killed. Well that universe version of them

So they're dead then? I still don't really get it

This is why I liked it. There's an absolutiveness about the whole plot and themes going on the game. The theme of eternity and godliness especially. There's a powerful essense in how it all comes together. A strength in meaningless.

Yeah it's very absolute and like there is always a higher power at work aka God. It's also disheartening because when you play the game again you're like the Luteces, you see it all unravel the same as before knowing that nothing can be changed.
It's also the first game to really have a very strong meaning behind replay value, it makes perfect sense to the games overall idea

 

[RetroMG]

I tried reading through the thread but I couldn't find the answer. So was there consensus on what the post-credits scene was about?

It's about making you wait through the longest credit sequence ever. Seriously, I'm all for people getting credit for what they did, but god damn, it's like half an hour. My wife lost it when they put in the video of the voice actors singing. (I tried to explain what an amazing scene it was in the game. She didn't buy it.)

Real Answer:
It's to show that because the Booker in the "Bad" universe died before becoming Comstock, the Booker in the "Good" universe got to live out a happy life with Anna.

At least, that's how I read it.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Yeah people talked about that. Your actions are no your own, and the choices you make never matter. Hence the head or tails test. It's always heads no matter what you do.
Also it's more of a tongue in cheek remark against games these days with supposed choices, where in the end it's always the same

I loved that the gunplay/vigor tutorial was a shooting gallery.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I believe that Levine himself said that didn't want to preach and that the actual theme of the game is hidden behind the political and religious commentary...

hmm, if i had to take a stab at it i'd say 'it's to solve your problems at the root, even if it's a difficult. superficial changes only do so much'. or maybe that's not deep enough. i think it works with the occupy inspiration he got.

 

[LiK]

my take was: what if religion and racism were taken to the extreme? you get terrorists and murderers. (thinking about future Elizabeth destroying NYC)

 

[jacksepticeye]

I loved that the gunplay/vigor tutorial was a shooting gallery.

Yep, Ken expressed his distaste for tutorials and even though they're there they don't really FEEL like tutorials. It's a tutorial through doing and not reading.
But then again all the Vigors stop the game dead and text pops up to tutorialise you in how they work, despite just showing a video telling you

my take was: what if religion and racism were taken to the extreme? you get terrorists and murderers. (thinking about future Elizabeth destroying NYC)

There is a LOT going on. That's one possibility. Also the fact that organised religion can turn you into a cult of sorts, like bloody Scientology. Also that religious extremists are very scary and sometimes they control way too much power

 

[Odrion]

my take was: what if religion and racism were taken to the extreme? you get terrorists.

you get a boring videogamey world, meeeeeeh

 

[toastyToast]

Does Booker become a private contractor after the baptism ceremony or is he already one before? I was under the impression that the first thing he does after The Wounded Knee was attempt to absolve himself.

If that's the case, the post-credits scene is BS

 

[Gorillaz]

So they're dead then? I still don't really get it

That universe version of them are dead, but most likely they warned there other twins in other dimensions about what was going down. Thats why they were literally everywhere.

 

[LiK]

you get boring characters

terrorists are pretty boring. (Call of Duty games) AHA, Levine is actuaslly saying all modern military shooters are boring! GENIUS.

 

[Riposte]

The only thing I felt flew passed me was how Booker and Comstock met face to face/existed in the same world. Did the unbaptized Booker jump through a tear at some point or vice versa? And where is Comstock's own Elizabeth?

EDIT: Also do they ever say why Elizabeth has powers in the first place?

 

[Tummi Gummi]

my take was: what if religion and racism were taken to the extreme? you get terrorists and murderers. (thinking about future Elizabeth destroying NYC)

I remember Levine claiming in a post-release interview that Bioshock 1 was really just about "people taking things to extremes" in general, but I think he was being deliberately obtuse/diplomatic/take your pick.

 

[jacksepticeye]

That universe version of them are dead, but most likely they warned there other twins in other dimensions about what was going down. Thats why they were literally everywhere.

But their graves are empty and they're digging them themselves. So either their ghosts digging their own graves or something else is happening.
I really need someone to give me a run down on that properly (no offense man) cos I didn't get all the Voxophones.

On the topic of the voxophones too the audio is terribly handled at times. You're trying to listen to one and in game dialogue cuts across it or the other way round.

 

[-COOLIO-]

The only thing I felt flew passed me was how Booker and Comstock met face to face/existed in the same world. Did the unbaptized Booker jump through a tear at some point or vice versa? And where is Comstock's own Elizabeth?

lucete made a tear for booker. he was the 'job recruiter'.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I don't think it really had a message as it had the problem of having the two factions be incredibly one dimensional. All the citizens before the shit hit the fan only had dialogue that was pretty much "Haha, those poors and minorities sure are horrible savages. Am I right guys? or "Hey I heard the Vox are evil! Woah!"

There are actually moderates in the game, like the couple with the black refugees or the policeman that liked to drink with the Vox... the thing is that they are killed or silenced.

Is like Daisy said: Pick a side.

To the extreme of course, but makes thematic sense.

 

[DarkKyo]

The only thing I felt flew passed me was how Booker and Comstock met face to face/existed in the same world. Did the unbaptized Booker jump through a tear at some point or vice versa? And where is Comstock's own Elizabeth?

The Lutece's brought him through a tear into Comstock's universe.

 

[DatDude]

While at work I was thinking about Infinite..partly due to how bored I was when it was slow.

But I started thinking about Elizabeth..and god damn, it's like a shakesperian fucking tragedy.

Get sold as a baby from your father, so he could pay off a debt..basically unwanted from him...comstock/alternate booker just ends up locking Elizabeth up (thinking she would be better there, than with Booker) and becomes a guinea pig.

When Booker returns to columbia (as our player character) all he wants to do (at first) is to resell Elizabeth back.

I mean Christ, talk about being unwanted

Literally made me just feel so damn sad for her and what she had to go through :'(

 

[DMB4237]

The only thing I felt flew passed me was how Booker and Comstock met face to face/existed in the same world. Did the unbaptized Booker jump through a tear at some point or vice versa? And where is Comstock's own Elizabeth?

Comstock was made infertile due to too many tear jumps. The Luteces brought Booker in from his own world.

 

[Grief.exe]

That's another thing. If you really want to hamper the plot, you can easily believe the quantum many worlds implementation renders every action in the game totally irrelevant as nothing is actually accomplished. There will always be a universe where Columbia conquers the world. Always a universe where Booker succeeds. Always a universe where Booker fails. Where he dies. Where Elizabeth dies. An alternative to everything, constant and forever.

So what does Booker actually accomplish?

Spoiler

And I'm just playing devil's advocate because I liked the plot and ending

Well the difference is this Booker was able to get past the Songbird and destroy the Siphon, unlocking Elizabeth's true power.

From there she saw everything and what she needed to do.

Comstock was made infertile due to too many tear jumps. The Luteces brought Booker in from his own world.

*the Lettuces

 

[jacksepticeye]

The only thing I felt flew passed me was how Booker and Comstock met face to face/existed in the same world. Did the unbaptized Booker jump through a tear at some point or vice versa? And where is Comstock's own Elizabeth?

EDIT: Also do they ever say why Elizabeth has powers in the first place?

Comstock doesn't have an elizabeth cos he can't have children. At the start of the game the Luteces bring you through a tear and you end up on that boat

Also the powers people think is either cos she existed in two different dimensions being born in one and living in another or her pinky being cut off and her physical body being in two places cause it. or both

 

[-COOLIO-]

While at work I was thinking about Infinite..partly due to how bored I was when it was slow.

But I started thinking about Elizabeth..and god damn, it's like a shakesperian fucking tragedy.

Get sold as a baby from your father, so he could pay off a debt..basically unwanted from him...comstock/alternate booker just ends up locking Elizabeth up (thinking she would be better there, than with Booker) and becomes a guinea pig.

When Booker returns to columbia (as our player character) all he wants to do (at first) is to resell Elizabeth back.

I mean Christ, talk about being unwanted

Literally made me just feel so damn sad for her and what she had to go through :'(

then she non exists herself an infinite number of times.

still, there's a happy ending in at least one universe.

 

[LiK]

wish there was a Luke/Leia kiss moment between Booker/Elizabeth. then i can annoy Levine with that on Twitter. but dammit, he was too smart.

 

[Alucrid]

The only thing I felt flew passed me was how Booker and Comstock met face to face/existed in the same world. Did the unbaptized Booker jump through a tear at some point or vice versa? And where is Comstock's own Elizabeth?

EDIT: Also do they ever say why Elizabeth has powers in the first place?

Comstock is sterile.

 

[Grief.exe]

then she non exists herself an infinite number of times.

still, there's a happy ending in at least one universe.

MFW I think you will never properly wrap your head around this.

 

[jacksepticeye]

While at work I was thinking about Infinite..partly due to how bored I was when it was slow.

But I started thinking about Elizabeth..and god damn, it's like a shakesperian fucking tragedy.

Get sold as a baby from your father, so he could pay off a debt..basically unwanted from him...comstock/alternate booker just ends up locking Elizabeth up (thinking she would be better there, than with Booker) and becomes a guinea pig.

When Booker returns to columbia (as our player character) all he wants to do (at first) is to resell Elizabeth back.

I mean Christ, talk about being unwanted

Literally made me just feel so damn sad for her and what she had to go through :'(

That's the point, it's all about a father's redemption and how far he would go for his daughter. The Booker we are is the one trying to set things right and fight for her.

Also this game is the first one that has you play infinite protagonists. Take that GTA V!!!

 

[Riposte]

Comstock doesn't have an elizabeth cos he can't have children. At the start of the game the Luteces bring you through a tear and you end up on that boat

Also the powers people think is either cos she existed in two different dimensions being born in one and living in another or her pinky being cut off and her physical body being in two places cause it. or both

Right, I recall him being sterile... so baptized Booker(s) never have Elizabeth(s)?

 

[Odrion]

There are actually moderates in the game, like the couple with the black refugees or the policeman that liked to drink with the Vox... the thing is that they are killed or silenced.

Is like Daisy said: Pick a side.

To the extreme of course, but makes thematic sense.

It wasn't the extremity of their beliefs that bothered it, it's that the only things anyone said or done were very blatant "WE ARE ESTABLISHING EXPOSITION." 99.9% of the things people talked about were either they really hated the other side, it made everyone seem like cardboard cutouts in a beautiful and vibrant world.

 

[Alucrid]

Right, I recall him being infertile... so baptized Booker(s) never have Elizabeth(s)?

No, but in this instance that's the case.

 

[Remachinate]

The only thing I felt flew passed me was how Booker and Comstock met face to face/existed in the same world. Did the unbaptized Booker jump through a tear at some point or vice versa? And where is Comstock's own Elizabeth?

EDIT: Also do they ever say why Elizabeth has powers in the first place?

The baptism happens before Booker has Anna/Elizabeth, which is why Comstock has to bargain for her across universes, using the Lutece technology.

It's been alluded to that Elizabeth's powers stem from the fact that a part of her (her pinky) was left in a different dimension from which she now resides, and that the universe "doesn't like to mix its peas with is porridge", giving her powers to become whole. It's shaky ground though, not definitively established.

 

[-COOLIO-]

MFW I think you will never properly wrap your head around this.

pfft, i think it is you, who shan't rap thine head around this.

 

[LiK]

That's the point, it's all about a father's redemption and how far he would go for his daughter. The Booker we are is the one trying to set things right and fight for her.

Also this game is the first one that has you play infinite protagonists. Take that GTA V!!!

kinda wish we did play multiple Bookers. would've been pretty sweet if you were working with other Bookers to take down Comstock. okay okay, maybe it's too Doctor Who.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Right, I recall him being infertile... so baptized Booker(s) never have Elizabeth(s)?

Basically yeah. Or at least the Comstocks that experimented with tears and the Luteces don't. The radiation and exposure caused infertility.
But there are an infinite number of possibilities so Comstock might have an elizabeth in one of them

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

this game makes me fear baptism.


no consensus. either you believed it was the start of the loop again or the loop is destroyed and Booker is now living happily with Anna. i prefer the latter.

A booker that never tried to get baptised/born again given a chance to live life with Elizabeth properly. Basically none of the columbia shit happens

It's about making you wait through the longest credit sequence ever. Seriously, I'm all for people getting credit for what they did, but god damn, it's like half an hour. My wife lost it when they put in the video of the voice actors singing. (I tried to explain what an amazing scene it was in the game. She didn't buy it.)

Real Answer:
It's to show that because the Booker in the "Bad" universe died before becoming Comstock, the Booker in the "Good" universe got to live out a happy life with Anna.

At least, that's how I read it.

interesting. I don't mind either interpretation at all really. Don't really have a preference for sad/happy endings, it was great stuff regardless.

 

[Alucrid]

kinda wish we did play multiple Bookers. would've been pretty sweet if you were working with other Bookers to take down Comstock. okay okay, maybe it's too Doctor Who.

How many times did you die in the game without Elizabeth?