SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
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Just finished it. Both the game and its press felt like it was fucking with me so much at the beginning that my brain was racing trying to make sense of those early revelations. Which was probably a bad thing for me, because I called key things within the first hour of playing. The moment where you pick heads or tails sealed it for me. Booker was Comstock, you're memories were fuzzy like the intro text described, these two scientists were hopping universes, and Elizabeth was stolen from another universe. That last prediction came into my mind when I started thinking about alternative universes which made me think about another piece of fiction which was all about stealing a child from another universe. Funnily enough I did get one thing wrong. Instead of thinking that she was Booker's daughter I thought that Elizabeth was Mrs. Comstock. From then on every single tiny hint that was supposed to build the story just became an obvious confirmation of my theories. Still those first 3-4 hours are among the best i've ever played. Like Bioshock 1 it overstayed its welcome and was a little bit too long. Though having the story so in my mind throughout probably affected a lot of that. Must have been what it felt like for people who played Bioshock knowing what that game was really about. Expectations are a bitch. I did like how the last revelation was handled though. The baptism was pretty good.
EDIT: Also i'm not sure I understand the rules (killing someone in one universe helps in the rest etc.) Or if it matters if I do. I need to catch up reading this thread to see what others are saying about this.
EDIT: Also i'm not sure I understand the rules (killing someone in one universe helps in the rest etc.) Or if it matters if I do. I need to catch up reading this thread to see what others are saying about this.
BaroqueSampson
Member
Wow how is that even possible? That's less than half my time lol.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
i laughed.
Nappuccino
Member
Game definitely has pacing issues, but I also started to like the combat more when I was forced to do it for awhile. Combat started to click for me late game.
Not really a fan of the ending. I don't see how him drowning in one timeline spares all other timelines from Comstock. The point is that there are infinite timelines, every single one would have to drown which seems implausible.
I think it would have been interesting if they spent some time jumping from timeline to timeline to stop a ton of Comstocks only to realize that their efforts are pointless because there would always be more Comstocks. I feel like that might have been more in-line with the game's themes.
Not really a fan of the ending. I don't see how him drowning in one timeline spares all other timelines from Comstock. The point is that there are infinite timelines, every single one would have to drown which seems implausible.
I think it would have been interesting if they spent some time jumping from timeline to timeline to stop a ton of Comstocks only to realize that their efforts are pointless because there would always be more Comstocks. I feel like that might have been more in-line with the game's themes.
EatChildren
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Terrordactyl
Member
Brilliant
Everything. They are a bigger problem than Comstock, as without them he would be just a sort of Mormon leader at best and nothing close to having Columbia.
The Lutece lady is actually very much like both scientists from Rapture (the botanic and the main one who creates ADAM and the Little Sisters); they don't give a fuck about the political power their technology give to certain people as long as the people in question foot the bill of the research, until, of course, the political power in question marches into the lab, then they decide to grow a conscience.
Mister Negative
Member
They went to the exact point where all Comstock realities are created. At the Baptism, there are two basic realities created: one where Booker doesn't go through with it, and one where he does. When Booker goes through with it, he becomes Comstock.
Because Booker drowns, he can not become Comstock.
HOLY FUCK. I just realized Booker is Ryan.
1: Booker can activate the bathysphere. Only a Ryan and Jack can do that.
2: In the optional house near the beginning of the game there's a woman giving a description to the police. The portrait the police artist draws is Ryan.
Edit: And both are killed by their own children.
mindesplode.gif
1: Booker can activate the bathysphere. Only a Ryan and Jack can do that.
2: In the optional house near the beginning of the game there's a woman giving a description to the police. The portrait the police artist draws is Ryan.
Edit: And both are killed by their own children.
mindesplode.gif
Mister Negative
Member
i think the point of drowning is because that is the point where the infinite timelines breach out
Cosmetic.
He would be too old in Rapture's timeline unless he literally jumped into the future.
Nappuccino
Member
But there still has to be realities where Booker didn't drown. That's what I mean about the infinite possibilities they were just talking about. The intent was conveyed well (and it seems to succeed) but I don't think it makes logical sense based on the philosophical things they were talking about and witnessing just moments before.
But Booker is Comstock....
I noticed #2 and imagined it was just an easter-egg. Alike the two appearances of the red wrench
Nappuccino
Member
Basically the baptism is the root of all variations of Booker and liz. If Booker dies before he makes the choice...all variations die as well.
Apophenia Overload
Member
1. So is the death by drowning some sort of quantum suicide, a reference to Schrödinger's cat? Given how the character can be both DeWitt and Comstock at once, the only way out is to kill him and prevent both men from happening.
2. I liked how it was a dark twist of the good Bioshock ending when you are surrounded by your "daughters" at your deathbed.
3. The after-credits scene? Clearly a reference to the ending of the Silent Hill movie where they end up in ghost world even though they escape and return home.
2. I liked how it was a dark twist of the good Bioshock ending when you are surrounded by your "daughters" at your deathbed.
3. The after-credits scene? Clearly a reference to the ending of the Silent Hill movie where they end up in ghost world even though they escape and return home.
Nappuccino
Member
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I figure there's two ways to look at the ending. Either:
A) Quantum multi verse theory obliterates any sense of accomplishment as no matter how hard they try to break the circle there will always be an alternative universe with an different outcome. Even at the climax where Booker is drowned there would be an offshoot universe where he did not. It's an absolute, eternally.
or B) The themes of godliness and ascension are taken literally in the form of Elizabeth, who in the strictest sense becomes the god Comstock idolised himself as, and the Gods we speak of in religion. Just as the Lutece twins fragmented their existence across multiple universes, Elizabeth at her maximum power embodies the fabric of quantum space time, and is able to alter reality and time at will. She's literally god. And using her godliness, she breaks the circle by having Booker/Comstock drown at the source of the timeline divergence. And in turn destroys herself, essentially killing god along with her.
If both BioShock and Infinite dealt with characters with god complexes, trying to become god, the Infinite deals with the theme of literal godliness through Elizabeth. While Ryan and Comstock/Booker attempt to become god, Elizabeth is actually god. And in the end, just as they fall, so does she.
The post credits stuff muddies all of this though and leans more towards A.
I'm sure in some universe, as well as this one, we've spawned a torrent of fan art.
A) Quantum multi verse theory obliterates any sense of accomplishment as no matter how hard they try to break the circle there will always be an alternative universe with an different outcome. Even at the climax where Booker is drowned there would be an offshoot universe where he did not. It's an absolute, eternally.
or B) The themes of godliness and ascension are taken literally in the form of Elizabeth, who in the strictest sense becomes the god Comstock idolised himself as, and the Gods we speak of in religion. Just as the Lutece twins fragmented their existence across multiple universes, Elizabeth at her maximum power embodies the fabric of quantum space time, and is able to alter reality and time at will. She's literally god. And using her godliness, she breaks the circle by having Booker/Comstock drown at the source of the timeline divergence. And in turn destroys herself, essentially killing god along with her.
If both BioShock and Infinite dealt with characters with god complexes, trying to become god, the Infinite deals with the theme of literal godliness through Elizabeth. While Ryan and Comstock/Booker attempt to become god, Elizabeth is actually god. And in the end, just as they fall, so does she.
The post credits stuff muddies all of this though and leans more towards A.
I'm sure in some universe, as well as this one, we've spawned a torrent of fan art.
Still reading through the thread so don't mind me if this was brought up or not, it kinda just blew my mind. Bioshock 1 is the telling of a male Elizabeth with Andrew Ryan being Booker. Crazy I know right. Can't wait till I catch up to this post and read how much of a dumbass I am, till then I will continue being intrigued by you guys' theories and seeing the people who obviously skipped the voxamaphones and the ones who had a clear eye for detail.
Terrordactyl
Member
Dude, you just mind fucked me all over again...dayum
That's a great concise analysis. I agree with that.
Apophenia Overload
Member
It's almost like a metaphor for Ken Levine's career, of recreating System Shock 2 again and again in vain attempts to recreate its quality in lesser shadow copies.
He can never retire unless he makes System Shock 3.
You're not understanding that it's a pivotal moment in Bookers life. Without the baptism he can never become Comstock. Every version of Comstock branches off the decision to be baptised. There are infinite scenarios but they're not independent. If you remove a possibility you remove possible endpoints.
Nappuccino
Member
This is definitely how I feel about it. I wish they would have explored that inherent failing.
Or explained how Elizabeth was able to circumvent it.
But that moment has at least three outcomes. One, he doesn't get baptized. Two, he gets baptized. Three, he drowns. In each one, there is a different variation of the reality. In some, he's Booker. In some, his Comstock. In others, he no longer exists. But his death is merely one of the branches.
Unless we're to say that, no matter when someone dies in one universe, they are guaranteed to have died in them all, but I don't think that was implied by the game. Otherwise Booker would have died in the others at the when he died as he became a martyr.
Based on Elizabeth's comments around that portion of the game, there;s a theory that in one universe Booker is actually Jack "There's always a lighthouse; always a man."
The ending and everything that it entailed blew me a way, but I was confused a bit about the whole Comstock/Booker deal at first. This game really did mess with my head a bit with the jumping, but I really liked it and where it went.
Apophenia Overload
Member
Honestly, sure there's a lot of emotional resonance in the setting and the characters, but I still feel at the end of it all, time travel fuckery is bad mojo in terms of story-telling. To me, it robs stories of their impact. I'm just saying this because I wasn't impressed by the endings to Looper or to Primer either, though the latter is just on a whole different plane of story.
You travel with Elizabeth as Booker for 12+ hours only to have him die at her hands to preempt everything that had come before from happening. And then they fade away, quantum ghosts. Some time loop somewhere got closed, or maybe hey it's the multiverse theory so an infinite amount of worlds where bad shit happens still happened and still will happen and still will have had happened- where's the resonance in that? What is the glory of staring at mind-boggling infinite? There's just something so Sisyphean about it.
You travel with Elizabeth as Booker for 12+ hours only to have him die at her hands to preempt everything that had come before from happening. And then they fade away, quantum ghosts. Some time loop somewhere got closed, or maybe hey it's the multiverse theory so an infinite amount of worlds where bad shit happens still happened and still will happen and still will have had happened- where's the resonance in that? What is the glory of staring at mind-boggling infinite? There's just something so Sisyphean about it.
You can't remove a possibility though, only branch out.
I don't take this approach, personally; I envisioned Elizabeth as God and capable of doing much more than makes sense.
Just read this.
Holy fucking shit.
To have this level of depth in a video game narrative is just..I have no fucking words.
Wow, that's all I have to say, fucking wow.
You can remove a branch if you remove the choice that brought that branch into existence. The choice was to be baptised or not. Baptism = Comstock, refusal = Booker. You remove that choice (by killing Booker) and neither can exist. Of course then we have a paradox, where Booker couldn't have saved Elizabeth because Comstock never existed, and without rescuing Elizabeth, Comstock couldn't be stopped, but that's the way things go with time travel and alternate universes.
Apophenia Overload
Member
How does that even work, multiverses can't loop into each other they're supposed to be separate timelines. You can't cross the streams!
Nappuccino
Member
The only way it works is if Elizabeth was so powerful she could edit all them at once.
Which is something I don't think the game set up well enough for me to assume, but I'd be willing to leave it as a possibility (albeit a small one imho)
i'm pretty sure bathyspheres were allowed to be used by everybody after Ryan died. in Bioshock 2 plenty of people use bathyspheres
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