this is more or less what happens in the game and the remaining 10% of the story were intentionally left open for interpretation
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
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this is more or less what happens in the game and the remaining 10% of the story were intentionally left open for interpretation
Or he just always drowns at the baptism, regardless of acceptence or refusal.
Dance Inferno
Unconfirmed Member
The interesting thing about that scene is that Booker seems to have memory of having sold Anna at some point. This would mean that he is the same Booker that Elizabeth drowned since she took him on a tour to show him how he sold Anna to Comstock.
Voice of Reason
Banned
And spooky at the same time.
The whole Vox rebellion was fascinating. It was a full-on war.
MaximumFlipFlop
Banned
So the Letuces are the true Villians and Heroes here. Their tears got them into this mess. To amend, they realized that fixing the mistake that created the man thats having them do their crazy shit die would end it all.
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah I know, hold for my edit in a couple minutes, I'll post my theory that takes into account the post credits scene.
Our Booker was brought to a different reality where he became Comstock instead. Our Booker can then kill his other self with ease.
---
And here's my theory:
Voice of Reason
Banned
Because they're from different timelines?
Urthstripe
Neo Member
Here's my interpretation, the best I can do with this great, bittersweet game (apologies if this has been stated before, but long thread is long):
The Luteces have been trying a long time, with multiple Bookers from multiple Universes where he gave up his daughter, to save Elizabeth and bring down Comstock. All of those Bookers have failed until us. We are the Booker who succeeds. We are the Booker who makes it past dying for the Vox, past getting killed by Songbird, and makes all the correct moves to close the loop.
Each choice that we/Booker makes creates divergent paths that created many other Bookers. But we are experiencing the Booker that made all the right choices and went down the necessary path. He makes it to the end, sacrifices himself to close the loop on all the Bookers who went down to the river to get baptised, thus ending the cycle.
Our Elizabeth still lives because if she was erased from existence, then our Booker doesn't exist, and none of the game events happen and a version of the grandfather paradox ensues (if i go back in time to kill my grandfather, then I wouldn't exist to go back in time to kill my grandfather, therefore I exist to go back in time to kill my grandfather ad infinitum). This seems to be the popular interpretation around here because people seem to think that the cycle just continues when you hit New Game. But remember, this isn't one timeline, this is multiple Universes. Multiple Universes where memories bleed over and our Elizabeth can see and travel through them all. Booker closes the loop on all the universe where Comstock could have possibly arisen, but our Elizabeth is now outside those universes. She just has to pick somewhere to go.
And so, in some universe where a depressed and alcoholic Booker who has a baby daughter named Anna wakes up from a dream (as memories bleed over, remember) of another Universe, one in which he made all the wrong choices and gave up the only thing he loved and had to sacrifice everything to save her from himself, now knows what not to do (thus closing off those universes where Comstock arises which was the purpose of the sacrifice). And to remind himself that Anna is still there despite this terrible nightmare, goes to check on her. And Elizabeth gets to have the life she never had.
The Luteces have been trying a long time, with multiple Bookers from multiple Universes where he gave up his daughter, to save Elizabeth and bring down Comstock. All of those Bookers have failed until us. We are the Booker who succeeds. We are the Booker who makes it past dying for the Vox, past getting killed by Songbird, and makes all the correct moves to close the loop.
Each choice that we/Booker makes creates divergent paths that created many other Bookers. But we are experiencing the Booker that made all the right choices and went down the necessary path. He makes it to the end, sacrifices himself to close the loop on all the Bookers who went down to the river to get baptised, thus ending the cycle.
Our Elizabeth still lives because if she was erased from existence, then our Booker doesn't exist, and none of the game events happen and a version of the grandfather paradox ensues (if i go back in time to kill my grandfather, then I wouldn't exist to go back in time to kill my grandfather, therefore I exist to go back in time to kill my grandfather ad infinitum). This seems to be the popular interpretation around here because people seem to think that the cycle just continues when you hit New Game. But remember, this isn't one timeline, this is multiple Universes. Multiple Universes where memories bleed over and our Elizabeth can see and travel through them all. Booker closes the loop on all the universe where Comstock could have possibly arisen, but our Elizabeth is now outside those universes. She just has to pick somewhere to go.
And so, in some universe where a depressed and alcoholic Booker who has a baby daughter named Anna wakes up from a dream (as memories bleed over, remember) of another Universe, one in which he made all the wrong choices and gave up the only thing he loved and had to sacrifice everything to save her from himself, now knows what not to do (thus closing off those universes where Comstock arises which was the purpose of the sacrifice). And to remind himself that Anna is still there despite this terrible nightmare, goes to check on her. And Elizabeth gets to have the life she never had.
The One Who Knocks
Member
Again that's not possible. He isn't killing himself. If he was, what you say is true. But he is drowned by Elizabeth. If Elizabeth doesn't exist, the constant of the baptism still exists but it also becomes a constant that he must reject, so he doesn't drown prior to making the choice. What you are saying, that he always drowns and the paradox is irrelevant is directly contradicting the ending. We even see everything disappear as the game ends, to suggest that the events of the game were erased and Booker rejecting to prevent his death becomes a constant. The universe cannot allow a paradox, feedback always destroys a paradoxical loop.
What is the difference between Booker killing himself and Elizabeth killing herself? Elizabeth drowning all Bookers is the same as her comitting suicide, is it not?
Cool
Voice of Reason
Banned
Someone has to save The One Who Knocks, he's going insane.
in a good way.
in a good way.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
No, As soon as Booker dies (if we're going by him 'replacing' all of the bookers or becoming a focal point), Liz immediately (or near immediately, from what we see) ceases to exist. This introduces a paradox that if Liz was never born due to Booker's death before he could have Anna and Liz never came to be, how could the grown Liz have ever drowned Booker in the first place when she never existed?
Because we are already accepting that she is a time lord at this point. She can make a drastic change like that and break the circle at the same time.
And the two circles make an infinite symbol
;_;
If we want to stretch it to the point of absurdity... 
The One Who Knocks
Member
No. If Booker drowns himself, then no paradox is created. This would ultimately change nothing. If every Booker drowns himself, then every Booker that survives Wounded Knee kills himself at the baptism. This prevents the after credit sequence and we see that this does not occur. If Elizabeth drowns Booker, every Booker's death at the baptism becomes a paradox. The paradox of Booker's death only exists if Booker can accept the baptism. To avoid the paradox, the feedback destroys every probability of Booker accepting the baptism (because that would result in a paradox and paradoxes cannot happen) and thus, Booker must always reject the baptism so he is not drowned by his unconceived daugther.
EDIT:
No for the same reason. Her becoming a timelord and murdering Booker is a paradox reliant upon Booker accepting. She can only open, and manipulate universes, she doesn't exist outside of them. Booker must reject so she never becomes a timelord and never drowns Booker; which would be a paradox.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
She is a Time Lord in the sense that she can see all probabilities and therefore 'pick' the optimal solution to prevent Booker from becoming Comstock utilizing the infinite nature of the tears.
Her alternately clothed 'disappearances' at the end suggest that she is still subject to the 'feedback' response of the Universe to prevent a paradox. She isn't truly outside the laws of the universe so much as she's able to break through the space/time barrier.
Just finished it and had a quick read through the last few pages to clear a few details up.
Oh my god.
Also, here's 'Will The Circle Be Unbroken' performed by Elizabeth (Courtnee Draper) on vocals, and Booker (Troy Baker) on guitar.
Oh my god.
Also, here's 'Will The Circle Be Unbroken' performed by Elizabeth (Courtnee Draper) on vocals, and Booker (Troy Baker) on guitar.
Ok and by your logic, Elizabeth drowning Booker causes a paradox of her disappearing but still being the one to drown her father before she was born, so the feedback destroys every probability of the successful Booker timeline from occuring because that results in liz being her own killer before she is born.
i finished the game this afternoon for the first time, and i'm only on page 17 on my personal thread reading, so i'm sure it is said by someone later,
but i feel the social tug of war in columbia is a mirror to bookers internal struggle with his multiple selves. the schizophrenic world is his schizophrenic mind. there's a real parallel there.
anyway that's a quick theory of mine. i can't wait to play through it again through the prism of psychological and social tug of war, as it will make the bigger tears elizabeth open up that much more important, as it is reflective of booker himself.
anyway on to page 18.
but i feel the social tug of war in columbia is a mirror to bookers internal struggle with his multiple selves. the schizophrenic world is his schizophrenic mind. there's a real parallel there.
anyway that's a quick theory of mine. i can't wait to play through it again through the prism of psychological and social tug of war, as it will make the bigger tears elizabeth open up that much more important, as it is reflective of booker himself.
anyway on to page 18.
Female Letuce speculates that it's because her pinky finger exists in another dimension.
Not to mention that the Letuces are the same person. Different realities, different sexes. Experimenting with themselves. I liked how when you when you first enter Columbia there is a statue of Robert that turns into Rosalind.
http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Robert_Lutece
http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Rosalind_Lutece
The One Who Knocks
Member
Yes. The events of the game erase themselves so that Booker must always reject the baptism to avoid the paradox. That's what we see after the credits.
EDIT: Explained in more detail here:
Because a part of her exists in two different realities at the same time and the universe gave her power to correct the anomaly.
She is susceptible to being snuffed out if she can't exist anymore but she can make "imprints" into time that changes variables to constants. So instead of the variable being accept or refuse, she replaced it with the constant drown. She does snuff herself out but it doesn't create a paradox because she is outside of that possibility.
Voice of Reason
Banned
Hmm, I can finally see Knocks and Coolio's explanations making sense now. It explains the line where Elizabeth says "in some timelines you've accepted the baptism" which implies that's the timeline they're in at the very end.
Then why is the priest giving you a pre-baptism speech when you walk in?
Edit: Just so it is here again "Booker Dewitt! Are you ready to be born again? Are you ready to be cleansed of your sins?"
The One Who Knocks
Member
She is a part of the paradox that is created by her drowning every Booker. She doesn't exist outside of the possibility because her existence is what causes the paradox. What she did was this:
Booker rejects -> Booker lives because Elizabeth is never formed to murder him.
Booker accepts -> Elizabeth already murdered Booker, paradox.
The constant that she creates is that Booker must reject the baptism because otherwise it forms a paradox. She doesn't exist outside of the paradox, she IS the paradox.
EDIT:
My explanation is slightly different to Coolio's. Coolio believes that she only murders Comstock's that accept. I disagree with this because she states that she murders every Booker before the choice. We both reach the same conclusions, that Booker rejecting becomes a constant. We just have different beliefs on what leads to this.
Voice of Reason
Banned
The pre-baptism speech is given when he accepts as well. They just entered a timeline where he accepts, irrelevant whether or not it's before he does it. Elizabeth knows that's where they are, allowing her to create the paradox.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Man the Letuces are such great characters. I love their theme music that signifies their arrival. Such a great part of the game.
Also I think Booker firmly puts the last nail in the coffin when it comes to 'silent' heroes for me. His dialogue is so integral to my enjoyment of the game.
Also I think Booker firmly puts the last nail in the coffin when it comes to 'silent' heroes for me. His dialogue is so integral to my enjoyment of the game.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
But if she's outside of the possibility of affecting the drowning scene due to being written out of existence, there was never any way for her to make the 'imprint' in the first place.
Liz isn't actually making any changes or imprint on anything when she opens the tears, she's literally opening/stepping into a new reality based on (at least, seemingly so) her desires i.e. the wish fulfillment statement she makes. She's not actually impacting any single timeline because there are infinite variations for her to step into, some of which include the 'variation' of her opening a tear into that particular universe. The tear utilization is another set of variables that the universes undergo.
Basically, the tears are just another facet of the infinite nature of the universe, albeit one that the universe probably doesn't like.
Liz isn't changing the nature of the baptism event from a variable into a constant directly, she's creating a paradox to ensure that the universe will not allow the 'choice' associated with the baptism to happen due to the paradoxical nature it leads to.
edit: Basically this.
You can't know whether he will accept or decline before he does it. They make a point of saying that he gets cold feet at literally the last second. There is a reason for that.
lastplayed
Member
The One Who Knocks
Member
I agree, she isn't just murdering Bookers that accept, she's murdering them all. By murdering them all, every Booker that accepts becomes a paradox (because Elizabeth only becomes a timelord and murders every Booker before the choice if Booker accepts). By becoming a paradox, it cannot happen and thus rejecting the baptism becomes a paradox, she closes off the red branch by turning it into a paradoxical loop.
It seems that from an early age, she was an über-being (not fully realized) due to her pinky being caught between dimensions. She makes a remark at one point that she used to be capable of "much more" as a child, but noticed this curtailed when she was older.
Then there's "The Syphon" located in her tower. Was it strictly to inundate her? Or were they using the Syphon's contents for other things?
She was placed in this tower and observed to one day be vetted by Comstock due to his prophecies illuminating Columbia's strike on New York. The Luteces presumably watched over her and recorded their findings until Comstock attempted to murder them by trapping them between dimensions.
This would explain why the Luteces can freely jump between universes and manipulate our vantage point to their whim.
It seems that they toy around with the notion of inhibiting her abilities by placing an electric probe on her spine. Were there experiments performed to uncover her abilities or are we supposed to assume they manifested on their own?
No need to throw answers my way. They're just questions to engender further discussion.
Then there's "The Syphon" located in her tower. Was it strictly to inundate her? Or were they using the Syphon's contents for other things?
She was placed in this tower and observed to one day be vetted by Comstock due to his prophecies illuminating Columbia's strike on New York. The Luteces presumably watched over her and recorded their findings until Comstock attempted to murder them by trapping them between dimensions.
This would explain why the Luteces can freely jump between universes and manipulate our vantage point to their whim.
It seems that they toy around with the notion of inhibiting her abilities by placing an electric probe on her spine. Were there experiments performed to uncover her abilities or are we supposed to assume they manifested on their own?
No need to throw answers my way. They're just questions to engender further discussion.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Right, but by creating a paradox associated with the 'choice', the universe will no longer allow it to be a variable, but instead, will now force a constant to avoid a paradox.
If I'm understanding it right, after Liz's intervention, Booker must ALWAYS now back out of the baptism. In the universes in which he doesn't, a paradox forms due to Comstock's leaping across timelines leading to a Liz with tear powers, and eventually, after the events of the game take place to their conclusion again, the universal feedback loop resets things, and brings Booker back to the decision until he breaks the paradoxical circle by saying no to the baptism, allowing the timeline to continue as normal.
Voice of Reason
Banned
Fuck, I'm confused again.
Could you tell me what we are seeing after the credits ?
I get the whole story but I don't understand that last bit. I mean he still has debts and he attended wounded knee plus he has a crib standing there so does that mean the timeline is "fixed" ? Also, why is there a calendar on the table ? It seems to me like Irrarional made this on purpose for future Dlc.
Voice of Reason
Banned
I'm just gonna stick to the theory that the Booker post-credits is just one that never went to the baptism, because you guys are too advanced for me.
The One Who Knocks
Member
Everything red = Paradox
Everything not red = Not Paradox.
Booker accepting becomes a paradox because it means Booker died prior to making a decision. A paradox cannot happen.
Booker rejecting doesn't cause a paradox. The paradox only happens if Booker accepts, because Elizabeth doesn't exist if every Booker rejects because no Comstocks exist to create her.
The universe does not allow paradoxes. All Bookers must reject the baptism so no paradox occurs. So it becomes:
Accept = Paradox
Reject = No Paradox
No paradox can ever occur and thus accept is no longer an option.
Here's the full text of the end scene:
I'd advise everyone to stop talking about paradoxes and what it means for the game's timeline. The game doesn't mention them at all. Just focus on what actually is said and is shown.
I'm still 99% sure "before the the choice" is referring to the decision of refusing or going through with the baptism. She makes it very clear. Thus, "before the choice is made" is clear. He never gets to refuse the baptism because he's dead by then.
I know we all want to figure out a way to neatly tie the post-credits scene to what we're shown, but it doesn't seem to mesh with what we're shown.
Preacher Witting: Booker DeWitt, are you ready to be born again?
Booker: What is this? Why are we back here?
Elizabeth: This isn't the same place, Booker.
Booker: Of course it is. I remember - wait. You're not...you're not...who are you?
Elizabeth: You chose to walk away. But in other oceans, you didn't. You took the baptism. And you were born again as a different man.
Booker: Comstock.
Elizabeth: It all has to end. To have never started. Not just in this world. But in all of ours.
Booker: Smother him in the crib.
Elizabeth Ensemble: Smother...smother...smother...
Elizabeth: Before the choice is made. Before you are reborn.
Preacher Witting: And what name shall you take my son?
Elizabeth: He's Zachary Comstock. He's Booker DeWitt.
Booker: No...I'm both.
Booker: What is this? Why are we back here?
Elizabeth: This isn't the same place, Booker.
Booker: Of course it is. I remember - wait. You're not...you're not...who are you?
Elizabeth: You chose to walk away. But in other oceans, you didn't. You took the baptism. And you were born again as a different man.
Booker: Comstock.
Elizabeth: It all has to end. To have never started. Not just in this world. But in all of ours.
Booker: Smother him in the crib.
Elizabeth Ensemble: Smother...smother...smother...
Elizabeth: Before the choice is made. Before you are reborn.
Preacher Witting: And what name shall you take my son?
Elizabeth: He's Zachary Comstock. He's Booker DeWitt.
Booker: No...I'm both.
I'd advise everyone to stop talking about paradoxes and what it means for the game's timeline. The game doesn't mention them at all. Just focus on what actually is said and is shown.
I'm still 99% sure "before the the choice" is referring to the decision of refusing or going through with the baptism. She makes it very clear. Thus, "before the choice is made" is clear. He never gets to refuse the baptism because he's dead by then.
I know we all want to figure out a way to neatly tie the post-credits scene to what we're shown, but it doesn't seem to mesh with what we're shown.
Voice of Reason
Banned
So, he can't accept because he then gets killed by Elizabeth, which doesn't exist because she only exists if he rejected it?
The One Who Knocks
Member
We see the after credit sequence because it shows us the date that this is the date that Anna was sold. According to the first showing of this date after the entrance to Columbia, Booker was awoken by Robert Lutece knocking on the door to take Anna to wipe away Booker's debt. This doesn't occur, because our actions erased every Comstock, it erases the possibility that Anna will be sold to Comstock and become Elizabeth. Simply put, the bolded is correct. The timeline is fixed. Booker has Anna, is still living in debt and will just continue to live his life.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Well just finished
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
This is true, but if Booker dies, and that does in fact stop all bookers from existing past Wounded Knee, there's no way for the post-credits scene to exist as we know it. The paradox discussion allows for both.
Right, but if Liz does kill you before the choice occurs, this only happens because Booker was given the choice. If he's not allowed to make the choice due to Liz killing him, it's impossible for Liz to exist to kill him in the first place.
Essentially correct. Elizabeth only exists if the baptism event occurs as a choice, since this will split off into Booker and Comstock. But if she kills Booker before the choice is ever made to become Comstock, it's impossible for her to have killed Booker in the first place, because negating the choice also negates her ever existing as Elizabeth because Comstock never took her, and she never then generated any tear abilities.
The One Who Knocks
Member
Once again, no. She drowns him before the choice, this is, absolutely, one hundred percent, true. Every Booker is drowned by Elizabeth before the baptism. HOWEVER, this is a paradox. This paradox can only occur if Booker was able to accept the baptism in the first place. Simply, ignoring the infinite sets that exist, Booker accepting the baptism means Comstock would exist which means that rejection Bookers sell Anna to Comstock which means that Elizabeth murders both Bookers. If every Booker in the probability space rejects, Booker can never sell Anna so Elizabeth never is able to murder Booker before the choice. The first instance is a paradox but it also becomes a certainty.
As in:
If a single Booker accepts, there is a one hundred percent probability that a paradox is created in which every Booker is drowned. Nothing can be done to stop the paradox if Booker is able to accept.
If every Booker rejects there is a one hundred percent probability that the paradox never occurs.
To avoid the paradox, Booker rejecting turns into a constant.
EDIT: See:
It'll always be case by case for me. It works great for Booker because his character is integral to this game, whereas if he were silent it'd feel like a cheapened experience. Likewise some games don't really NEED that strongly characterized lead character, nevermind when they give you so much freedom they never feel like a real character or it outright comes off as WRONG when they speak of their own volition (Shepard in ME's a big example of this to me, as awesome as some of the moments ARE where they talk.) At that point you may as well go the Witcher or Telltale route.
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