Why because I'm fed up with the monopoly that PR has on games journalism and that I enjoy writing stories that I'm actually able to write about instead of getting manufactured quotes that don't answer any of my questions when putting video game features together?
Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
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Why because I'm fed up with the monopoly that PR has on games journalism and that I enjoy writing stories that I'm actually able to write about instead of getting manufactured quotes that don't answer any of my questions when putting video game features together?
JehutyRunner
Banned
I haven't read the entire discusion, but the belief I have - and this is true speaking as a UK games journo - is that there's not a great of gigs going in the industry right now. And even then, PR has nothing to do with it.
Fair enough. It's difficult to get an actual job in any part of the journalism industry. I'm just upset with the amount of BS I've encountered in the past few months as a games journalist that I never saw as a regular journalist.
JehutyRunner
Banned
True. A majority of Doritogate, not to mention prior events before it involving my personal life, nearly tempted me to bail out of the industry. But the truth is as long as you - or anyone - have the passion and you believe you can make a difference, no matter how big or small the contribution, it's worth it.
Can't say much myself, but I do think the most interesting options to write stories around the gaming industry while avoiding PR is uncovering cancelled games like the "Megaman Prime" game; the reason for the long time for the release of "Duke Nukem Forever"
I'm sure there is a hell of story to tell about the hell development Final Fantasy XIII Versus that fans defitively want to know. It may be impossible now, but after it's launched in some form or another, it may be coverable.
I do love to read more pieces like Wario64's thread uncovering Metroid prime things. It's these kind of stories that I am looking forward now and I do love more pieces like that to flourish. I felt there is a great role Game Journalists can do instead of falling in the hands of PR people.
CoffeeGames
Member
Wasn't insinuating anything, just that if you aren't wanting to continue in game journalism (due to the PR influence/pay or whatever else), those other two areas/industries are doing pretty well right now.
With the way games journalism is done mainly from a computer these days, you can get another job that pays the bills, and often still do the game stuff.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
And this is why you don't try and pretend you're the new standard of games journalism and tread on everyone else while you're trying to do it, Jason Schreier:
George Kamitani is the President of Vanillaware and also said artist in question.
So congrats on Kotaku going THREE MONTHS without another inflammatory "lets piss off a Japanese dev" article:
Oh well, maybe you'll get back up to those 3 months again with perseverance!
George Kamitani is the President of Vanillaware and also said artist in question.
So congrats on Kotaku going THREE MONTHS without another inflammatory "lets piss off a Japanese dev" article:
Oh well, maybe you'll get back up to those 3 months again with perseverance!
Hey, hey, Schreier just needs some click-baiting 'articles' so he can fund his more thorough, investigative journalism on Kotaku.
Since that other thread was locked, I'll post my response here: http://kotaku.com/the-real-problem-with-that-controversial-sexy-video-ga-478120280
They created some juvenile (but arguably high quality) artwork and used it to prominently advertise their game. In response they got a juvenile, snarky blog post.
Who cares if he's the CEO and artist? If you put something out there, expect criticism. Why should Japanese devs be put on a pedestal?
Everyone in the games industry - publishers, developers and gamers alike - needs to stop being so damn precious.
Tummi Gummi
Member
What was the point of saying a couple times that you dont know what the artist thinks about his art, the intent of his response and his real views on the sexism issue if you couldnt even wait three hours after learning about the news to patiently wait for his response?
I understand you are part of the gawker 24 hours news cicle, but there are some implications about his way of thinking that you are making, not to mention framing the article as a piece against sexism placing him as the potential opposing party. The click-baiting headline, the quick apology and framing yourself already as a victim of internet abuse doesnt help either.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Its just absolutely ludicrous after having such a shit fit about not being asked for comment or checking with Kotaku over certain stuff or whatever, to then just turn around and fire an incendiary pot-shot at a Japanese developer just 3 months after that was the last "oh Kotaku" situation. You are only as good as your last fuckup, and you've just reset the counter Jason.
This is why I was trying to get you to scale back the attitude a few pages ago because I knew something like this was going to happen because lord knows what are game journalists if they can't randomly snark on some kid in the playground and posture "AMIRITE GUYS?!??!" afterwards.
This is why I was trying to get you to scale back the attitude a few pages ago because I knew something like this was going to happen because lord knows what are game journalists if they can't randomly snark on some kid in the playground and posture "AMIRITE GUYS?!??!" afterwards.
That is a problem with gamers in general though, we are the ones who put these guys on pedestals, don't demand more and constantly make excuse after excuse. They release a horrible game or buggy game" OMG the poor dev didn't have enough time, don't call them lazy you meanie!" or "oh that poor publisher did their very very best" it's like look its a job, you do a shitty job, you get called on it.
The art was ridiculous and they deserved to be called on it, and their "reply" art was even more ridiculous.
None of this is reporting the news. You have become the news. You consider yourself a journalist but are now trying real hard to become a tastemaker.
"Look, I'm not a censor" says a guy who tries to shame a developer. If there are a million guys like you doing what you did, that is what creates censorship.
I think you're trying to shield your earlier outburst by claiming 'respect for women' and quite frankly it comes off as cowardly. If you wrote the second article first then you might come off as a genuine person.
Plus it was click-bait. Pure and simple. It's something you denied both Kotaku and yourself from engaging in. Actions speak louder than words.
RedNumberFive
Banned
Jesus Christ Jason, you were doing so well, writing intelligent, well-researched articles, then you had to blow it with this shit. You're better than this.
You don't know what censorship actually is.
Hint: It's not one million people disagreeing with you publicly.
ReeseHoward
Banned
Big burly men are the exact opposite of the ultra-feminine sorceress. Why would anyone jump to the conclusion that Kamitani is calling Schreier gay? (unless you're a homophobe, I guess.)
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
But this is what it comes back to time and time again with game journalism. You're pulling this innocent face with regards to "random snark?", as if posting "HA HA YOU 14 YEAR OLD IDIOT" was like on the company professional to-do list and not just the same old lack of self control most of your peers display as if they were shitting dogs that just can't stop themselves from jumping through the air and shitting everywhere every couple of weeks because "thats just how he is, sorry".
If you had a sexism piece to run, okay, you'd naturally have more things to point at than "look at the tits on her", and run with something a little more intellectual. As others have said however, it was instead presented in a GameFAQ's level driveby strawman shooting.
Its not even a particularly good example to be made of anyway because your brothers in Kotaku arms covered Code of Princess with these two "legendary artist" reverences:
http://kotaku.com/5851636/giant-swords-and-silly-cleavage-ah-this-is-code-of-princess/
http://kotaku.com/5853444/concept-art-fit-for-giant-swords-and-silly-cleavage/
and while noting the atypical heroine's lack of dress, it wasn't done in a "HAHA, PRICKS" manner. Especially when you consider its a woman drawing this 'sexism'. But then its not sexism is it? A sexual form is one thing if the character is being portrayed as some helpless damsel, a carrot dangling on a salivating stick, but these characters are instead ass kicking main ones, taking to task the very same enemies and bosses their burly and overly sexualised male compatriots are doing so against.
If George K was some unrepentant sexist horn beast, the main female characters in Odin Sphere and Muramasa would sport the worlds largest tits and out of proportion male heroes, but they didnt because they had their own subtly different art styles (Skeleton Death Tits in the former providing plenty of weird feels aside). Dragon's Crown is instead riffing on the very core D&D/Frazetta style of doing things with an added touch of anime titten, and no, I don't think its the poster child of THINGS HAVE GONE TO FAR when Duke Nuken Forever and other such things came and went long before.
As for feeling ashamed to be seen playing these games or whatever, well, the irony is: grow up. If I had these paintings or prints displayed in my living room (of which Dragon's Crown is clearly inspired):
If you had a sexism piece to run, okay, you'd naturally have more things to point at than "look at the tits on her", and run with something a little more intellectual. As others have said however, it was instead presented in a GameFAQ's level driveby strawman shooting.
Its not even a particularly good example to be made of anyway because your brothers in Kotaku arms covered Code of Princess with these two "legendary artist" reverences:
http://kotaku.com/5851636/giant-swords-and-silly-cleavage-ah-this-is-code-of-princess/
http://kotaku.com/5853444/concept-art-fit-for-giant-swords-and-silly-cleavage/
and while noting the atypical heroine's lack of dress, it wasn't done in a "HAHA, PRICKS" manner. Especially when you consider its a woman drawing this 'sexism'. But then its not sexism is it? A sexual form is one thing if the character is being portrayed as some helpless damsel, a carrot dangling on a salivating stick, but these characters are instead ass kicking main ones, taking to task the very same enemies and bosses their burly and overly sexualised male compatriots are doing so against.
If George K was some unrepentant sexist horn beast, the main female characters in Odin Sphere and Muramasa would sport the worlds largest tits and out of proportion male heroes, but they didnt because they had their own subtly different art styles (Skeleton Death Tits in the former providing plenty of weird feels aside). Dragon's Crown is instead riffing on the very core D&D/Frazetta style of doing things with an added touch of anime titten, and no, I don't think its the poster child of THINGS HAVE GONE TO FAR when Duke Nuken Forever and other such things came and went long before.
As for feeling ashamed to be seen playing these games or whatever, well, the irony is: grow up. If I had these paintings or prints displayed in my living room (of which Dragon's Crown is clearly inspired):
the topic of conversations from guests wouldnt be "Why are you such a sexist thug?" but instead on all the fantasy and films and everything Frazetta's artwork inspired and how he's dearly missed. But then thats the level of conversation I enjoy with my real life friends and not "HA HA, WHAT ARE YOU... FOURTEEN YEARS OLD?"
Delusibeta
Banned
The problem I have with this whole debate about sexism within games is that it's seemingly being promoted by people whose argument can be boiled down to "I am offended, therefore you should be offended, here's some stuff I copied off Anita's website as to why you should be offended", of which Jason's article is a prime example. To be perfectly honest? I don't give a shit, and hardly anyone does. None of the sexism drama has negatively affected the sales of any of the videogames in question. The only real action that has been taken was the renaming of one achievement because a couple of guys barked up the wrong tree. It all strikes me as journalists posturing and going "look, I can be like Anita too!"
I'd far rather see more effort go to uncovering sexism in real life than just pointing and shouting "DIS VIDYA GAEM IS SEXIST!!!111!!". Some actual change might happen that way.
I'd far rather see more effort go to uncovering sexism in real life than just pointing and shouting "DIS VIDYA GAEM IS SEXIST!!!111!!". Some actual change might happen that way.
I must say, if you believe that I "blew it" by criticizing art design that helps perpetuate a toxic and disgusting part of gaming culture, then you are probably not the type of person I want on my side in the first place.
In my first post, I should have made my criticism clearer, and I should have made it about the art, not the person who made it. I should have made it clear that I'm saying the character looks like it came from a 14-year-old boy's imagination, not that I actually believe Kamitani is a 14-year-old boy. If that's where you think I screwed up, then I'll agree with you.
But if you think I "blew it" because I believe this is a juvenile piece of art and I wish gaming could get past this sort of thing already, then I am perfectly okay with you not reading my work again.
#1). Yes. This is what I meant by playing all sides. He was doing much better, but he wants to be able to post dumb shit to generate hits and still come on here and defend his position using excuses and justifications as his armor and shield. "You have the pay the piper!" is not a worthy reason for treating the industry with such disdain.
#2.) His response was great. It's a shame he basically ruined his argument by being a jackass in the original column (thereby almost negating the valid point he had). Paying attention Jason? This cycle is getting old. But I really liked your response. It's the way you should have approached this from the get go. It's fucking gross. I can't blindly support juvenile masochism anymore. I'm not buying games that offend me, but being a part of the gaming community and not saying anything is just as bad. If they don't know that we don't approve, they'll just keep doing it. And they probably will anyway, but at least I can tell Kamitani his art style needs to grow the fuck up.
When a million people disagree with you publicly you most certainly create an aura of censorship. George R. R. Martin has spoken about how the criticism he gets for his books: they're too violent, too grisly, too evil, can weigh heavily on him. It has made him doubt his own writing.
If one of the best authors today can feel the awful weight of public opinion then any artist can. It is a form of censorship if you can shame the artist into self-censoring themselves.
ReeseHoward
Banned
So is the argument that sexualized character designs are inherently bad?
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
So Frank Frazetta, one of the greatest artists of our time, had a 14-year old boys imagination too right, Jason? Is this the path you want to walk down?
Cerebral Assassin
Member
Every visual media "exploits" attractive people(see. Sucker Punch etc.), & given how niche the game in question is this article smacks of click-bait(especially given that Kotaku is full of immature & offensive content, but I guess Jason profits of that, so I guess he is fine with that).
Nah only sexualised women are, men in loincloths are cool.
faceless007
Member
I think it's worth separating the reactions to Jason's post into two angles:
1) It was snarky, did not ask the subject for a comment, and was little more than an insulting drive-by criticism without much substance. This criticism goes to the larger problem of how modern blog journalism operates and the need to push attention-getting posts out quickly.
2) The merits of the sexism debate. Valid subject, and Jason's response article is a good one.
1) It was snarky, did not ask the subject for a comment, and was little more than an insulting drive-by criticism without much substance. This criticism goes to the larger problem of how modern blog journalism operates and the need to push attention-getting posts out quickly.
2) The merits of the sexism debate. Valid subject, and Jason's response article is a good one.
I'm not denying it was click bait, it was. But that's the issue, because he derailed his own point.
And there's a big difference between Frazetta's fantasy and kids cartoons with giant boobs.
faceless007
Member
If you think Jason is creating an "aura of censorship" as just one person, you must be terrified to learn that there's a very large community (100K+) of extremely critical, cynical, passionate, and vocal gamers who have no sacred cows and absolutely no compunction about telling developers directly, in no uncertain terms, exactly what is wrong with every single aspect of the games they make. It's called NeoGAF.
Whoa whoa whoa now no, that's not true at all. That's not censorship, if you're an artist and you're letting the constant negative barrage of comments affect your vision that's YOUR problem, it's not censorship.
Not in the least.
It strikes me as media attempting to make the story so to speak. They chose to specifically insult someone instead of attempting to start a discussion. Then, when the person who they insulted was predictably and understandably upset and stupidly chose to respond with a childish and indefensible retort they retreat to the moral highground. "OK now that we got good, incriminating, and clickable copy from you on Facebook we're ready to respond in the right manner, a manner we've avoided up til now."
You "blew it" because how cant still explain what makes the art juvenile, and obviously you arent concerned to know the artist's point of view when you couldnt even wait 3 hours for him to respond or explain himself. And please, dont turn try to frame that poster's criticism (or mine) as that he are being sexists for not being on your side. When John Walker sets up to write an article about sexism he has a source of inspiration for it, your current argument for this can sadly be summed in "Ewww gross".
I was willing to give him the benefict of the doubt even when some users predicted this outcome and even asked him to reconsider alternatives.
RedNumberFive
Banned
There has been enough valid criticism from other members of GAF, so I'm not going to parrot it. Bottom line, your work on these "stories" can be summed up in one word - unprofessional. You've done some great work at Kotaku in the past year. Man up to this mistake, and move on. As I said earlier, you're better than this.
For the record, I think the art style looks kind of stupid.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Dragon's Crown is about as close to Frazetta artwork style made into a 2d brawler you can get. Its even more exaggerated with proportions, but then thats the artist's choice.
This isn't all some nefarious photoshopping of a model on Magazine covers to project a cultural image of the perfect and nonexistant woman shit going on here. Its a videogame artstyle with insane proportions for a very particular visual style in an entirely fictional and obviously unrealistic universe. If you can't handle it, well okay, but the "its my right to be offended!" crowd are the very antithesis to varied and different flavours of entertainment. Hell, Sorceress isn't even the only female type in the game, you have Amazon and the far more anatomy restrained Elf to go along too.
Then post your retort on GAF to get those clicks!
Internet Media 101: Insult your audience to get their attention, then surprise and delight them with intelligent discussion.
Your momma so fat.
What?!
Obesity is a real problem in America.
See? We're learning.
I don't know why you're addressing some amorphous "they" instead of me, Shawn, but that's not true at all. I chose to write something critical that I thought people would understand right away. When people didn't get my point, I realized that I had handled it poorly, so I took this opportunity to correct that. I have no interest in throwing around random insults for no good reason.
Not only did I not write that, I wasn't even working at Kotaku when it was published.
Jake Tower
Banned
That's not censorship of any kind.
I'm not making comment either way on the story itself, but these comments is false.
A million guys attempting to shame a developer over and issue would be a million guys performing criticism, pure and simple. Criticism, at both an enthusiast and academic level, is an important spoke in the never-ending wheel of culture, art, and expression. An accusation such as "must be designed by a 14 year old boy" is writing turn that is little different from some of the most revered pieces of critique over the history of literary criticism.
To call such criticism censorship is both ludicrous and harmful, and it intellectually undermines your own arguments against Schreier and Kotaku as a whole.
Cerebral Assassin
Member
The art isn't to my style but given it isn't pornographic I fail to see the outrage, perhaps if the article was well written I could see the issue.
Delusibeta
Banned
So, "this character was designed by a 14 year old boy. Stop hiring teenagers plz." is criticism now?
Quick and dirty definition of the word:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/censor
cen·sor/ˈsɛnsər/ Show Spelled [sen-ser] Show IPA
noun
3. an adverse critic; faultfinder.
Censorship can indeed be initiated by the masses and self-censorship is something encountered in literature and movies. When Jason began a paragraph with "Look, I'm no censor..." it came off as one of those people who say "Hey, I'm not prejudiced against black people..." and then goes ahead to prove themselves wrong.
There's a reason Jason wrote that towards the end of his piece. He read back and saw that his points could be taken that way and so began the process of insulating himself from those charges. If he wouldn't have written it first, I wouldn't have pointed it out.
At any rate censorship wasn't the thrust of my umbrage at this debacle. I'm not worried that Jason is a one-man aura of censorship. If he had that power I would be far kinder and far less honest with him. These things accumulate over time. People point out things they consider wrong in hopes of righting them. Otherwise what's the point? If you go into the Dragon Crown Sorceress thread you can follow links to many pieces of art and even their possible inspirations. It is amazing work and I strongly believe the artists at Vanillaware should be able to continue unencumbered, even if a huge breasted character is created now and then.
There's a reason why a quick and dirty definition of a word isn't considered more than that.
Your rather insidious line of argument (there's elements of it I won't even justify by quoting) has more in common with censorship that Schreir's article.
No. I was unclear. The character looks like a 14-year-old hetero boy's daydream. This is inherently problematic. That was the point, as I explained today.
ReeseHoward
Banned
...how?
Careful, now. You've just made an argument as reductive and silly as the one that suggests to criticise is to censor.
"They" might mean similar articles that have popped out with an equally one-sided view and that you are congratulating to the writer on twitter. You also already began the whole "pick the nut guy on the crowd and pretend all criticism" narrative. And again, why not simply wait for the creator of the art to express his views? You are struggling to explain why the art is problematic.
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