AuthenticM
Member
Repeat after me: "There is nothing wrong with sex. There is nothing wrong with the sexualization of the human body. Sex does not equal sexism. I must get over my puritanical conditionning."
Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
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Repeat after me: "There is nothing wrong with sex. There is nothing wrong with the sexualization of the human body. Sex does not equal sexism. I must get over my puritanical conditionning."
GAF is an equal opportunity utopia. We hate everyone at some point. No distinction of race, gender, cast or creed. Being human is reason enough.
GAF is sexist. Where the women at?
Devolution
Member
Right here being annoyed at what is supposedly being purported as the epitome of sexism in the industry. It's tiring.
CoffeeGames
Member
LOL! Or, when you actually contact them (not Jason), they don't respond? But, they like to complain about not being contacted? I must be from a different customer service/PR background...
Riposte
Member
It has a clear game-related purpose: to make the game as a whole aesthetically pleasing. That's the purpose of art design in general. You can call it "titillation" if you want, but that's just used as a pejorative to dismiss disagreeable stimulation as shameful. In any case, no, I'm not calling Dragon's Crown an "erotic game". Perhaps "erotic game" is a poorly defined term.
thebaroness
Member
This right here:
You specifically state a way that "most women" feel as a pillar for your argument. You also linked to an article written by a friend of mine named Meagan, which had nothing to do with how characters are designed, but how people act in the real world to women. They are VASTLY different, and should not be a reason listed in your argument against a specific art style.
Saying, "Sexy characters make men treat real women in the gaming industry badly!", is the same argument a politician can make for violent games causing mass shootings.
You also go on to say that you're not a censor, and that you don't think that kind of character design should go away. But that you think it's hurting the game industry as a whole, which means you really do think it should go away. You're fine to not like a certain way a game is designed. But DO NOT insult its designer on a large media outlet, DO NOT lump all women into your opinion, and DO NOT say you feel it's detrimental because it makes you feel embarrassed.
thebaroness
Member
Mr. Pointy
Member
This is why I don't read Kotaku.
I had the highest post count in the thread about the Dead Island statue and I swore up and down that it should be recalled. It was the closest thing to a feminist I've ever come to.
That said, I can't wait for Dragon's Crown and I will be playing Sorceress.
Is that a double standard? I don't even know. All I know is that I want DC and I don't think that bust statue was a good idea.
Agreed 100% right here.
You should feel ashamed about your assumptions and world view, Jason, not big boobs on an imaginary video game character.
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I did not use the words "most women," or "all women," or anything even close.
I didn't say that, either, or anything even close to that. I said that this is symptomatic of a bigger problem. You folks really need to read what I write before you respond to it.
They are around. We even have female mods. And a dutch to fill the european quota.
Wickerbasket
Member
The title of your first article was embarrassing to read.
Kotaku Really Need To Stop Letting Teenage Boys Write Their Articles.
Devolution
Member
I honestly couldn't give a fuck less about some sexualization if there's a damn character behind it like say Morrigan from DA:O and there are other characters who don't come across as meat bags. I'm none too happy about being told "here's some japanese rpg with obvious over the top designs you should feel appalled by."
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
"so many" indicates a sizable portion really doesn't it. I mean we're splitting pedantic hairs here, and of course this is the drag down I'LL NOT BACK DOWN ending segment of all gaming journalist "me and my fucking typing claw" moments, but I'm sure you'll maybe take other women's viewpoints on board. I'll be sure to quiz my girlfriend on if she's one of the so many that feels affronted and scared and victimised and unprepared to work in the creative industry by videogame bazoongas when she gets back from a work trip. Considering Bayonetta and Odin Sphere are some of her faves of all time, I don't think she'll be crying herself to sleep when I boot the game up because she's concerned I've suddenly become a sexist monster.
People keep saying "the problem" and "the issue" with regards to these bazoongas without actually coming out and saying 100% what dark path the existence of these anime tittays has in store for humanity and why they should not go quietly into the night. Probably because when they actually have to lay it out and say "because it promotes sexism in the workplace" it seems so utterly ridiculous we all start laughing.
Jake Tower
Banned
Is it? This is a fringe-ass game. And the aesthetics are clearly driven by the desires of the team, given some of the lead artists other work. This hardly looks like a passionless play for the eyes and dollars of a larger audience.
So you only find erotic imagery pleasing? It's appropriate to use erotic imagery whenever you want something to look "aesthetically pleasing" to your intended audience? Would Call of Duty be more "aesthetically pleasing" if it utilized more erotic imagery?
Yeah, the way women, blacks, asians, etc. were portrayed in early Bond films made me uncomfortable too. Modern Bond films have improved immensely with respect to portraying women though. They're sexy and they have some real character, or real substance.
So you're right, it's not the way they look that bothers me. It's the way they're portrayed and acted upon. The videogame industry could probably learn something from the film industry.
I don't give a crap about whatever "path" this kind of crap leads humanity down. My issue is, stop trying to compare this shit to art, stop trying to make this into something it's not. I'd hang some of those goofy paintings in my home and not be embarrassed, but i'd NEVER play this shit in public with it's giant cow tits bouncing all over the place. Let's all be real here, it's simply another bit tittied anime character made to appeal to a certain audience. and there's nothing wrong with it!
But we need to stop trying to sugar coat what this game is, Senran Kagura's little sister basically, and let's call a spade a spade and be done with it. Now does this promote "sexism" in games? Well I fail to see how it can HELP the situation to be honest, since yes it's appealing to a certain type of audience, and thus bringing in a certain type of gamer generally.
Show me the concept art and I'll decide. I think it's pretty unlikely that Call of Duty wouldn't end up more aesthetically pleasing if it looked like any Vanillaware game, be it Dragon's Crown or something else. Do you think erotic imagery can only be acceptable if it is put in every game ever made?
thebaroness
Member
Yes you did! And I posted the exact excerpt from your article that says such and why I felt that way.
I'll post it again.
Again, I also don't like that you used Meagan's article for your own agenda.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Not to completely derail or distract, but I'd personally like to see more game journalists go after publishers who have bad track records addressing hostile workplaces and or fairly compensating female workers. I'd be interested in seeing how the overall data compares with Hollywood as well.
Maybe there's a lot of this data out there already, but it's on me for not looking in the right places.
Maybe there's a lot of this data out there already, but it's on me for not looking in the right places.
Yes, but don't you feel oppressed at all even just a little bit?! I mean her boobs are really big. Like too big for a woman to have.
So the game itself has nothing to do with it.
Devolution
Member
If anything I find that to be the point of it all. Absurdity. Thus I can't really care. There are plenty of things making me feel alienated when it comes to gaming. Niche (or whatever you want to label it) japanese rpgs never have.
He actually edited in more stupid.
The original form of the post was just silly. Then he added everything after the first sentence and it got outrageous.
Yeah I agree. (I failed at being sarcastic it seems).
Productive post.
Jake Tower
Banned
Devolution
Member
I thought you were but I wasn't sure. (It's probably my fault lol).
The entire premise of your post fails. Getting "So you only find erotic imagery pleasing?" from this post:
does not make any sense at all. It's like you're trying to read into something he isn't saying just so you can attack him for no reason when he said nothing that provokes it.
The Call of Duty reference is baffling at best. I'm not sure what serious point there is to be made by answering that hypothetical question.
I just don't think it's a very coherent response to what Riposte was saying.
antitrop: troll someone else.
Well that's not really what I'm asking. I'm trying to confirm that "erotic content" (jeez are we really having this conversation?) isn't something that makes sense in every context, just by nature of the fact that people find "erotic content" appealing. Your reply stated that it's appropriateness has nothing to do with the game itself.
So "harmful" is a better word? Isn't the dissonance (inappropriateness) the thing that creates that harm though? Isn't this just a semantic argument? I think if the inclusion of "erotic imagery" can be harmful to your game it's safe to say it's not simply "art design" to make the game more "aesthetically pleasing." It seems to me it should make sense in the context of the game, just like any other decision in terms of gameplay or art direction.
Giolon
Member
Ok Jason, here it is. Your words exactly:
You say the Sorceress is symbolic of a much bigger problem (which I disagree with entirely - being an asshole has nothing to do with artwork). You say you're not a censor and that you are not trying to say that an artist shouldn't draw that they think is beautiful - that all art has its fans.
You then say that you think the sorceress's art hurts the game and gaming as a whole (something else I emphatically disagree with - there's room for all styles and tastes). You say you don't think it's beautiful, and you think it's repelling.
If this is not saying that you "don't think it should exist" in so many words, or at the very least that the Sorceress should not be included as a character in this game - what are you saying?
I would never think to use the word 'inappropriate' that way in the context of eroticism but if that's what you meant, then yes that is what creates harm. I don't see how that expands the effect beyond aesthetics though. If you put the water from Just Cause 2 in Fez, that would create a dissonant visual effect and harm the game, but it would have little impact beyond aesthetics. So I think titillating art can have aesthetics as its sole purpose if that is what is intended (and if the rest of the game allows for it).
voodoopanda
Member
Sometimes it feels weird using small, niche Japanese games as evidence of problems in the greater video game industry. It strikes me as being kinda like using Troma movies as examples of things wrong in the movie industry. There are also very few games that exist that are similar to Vanillaware's stuff. I didn't know the artist and CEO were the same person before this thread, but it makes sense seeing how consistently unique the games are, like they are one person's artistic vision. There's something blatant about Dragon's Crown, like it knows what it is and isn't trying to hide it and you either like it or not. A lot of the problems in the industry seem more subtle/insidious. While there are obviously things one can find problematic in Dragon's Crown, it just seems odd to go after it specifically. I felt the same way about Bayonetta. I dunno. I think maybe the problem isn't that something like Dragon's Crown exists, but that there isn't enough other stuff to appeal to & represent a wider amount of people. That it isn't so much that Dragon's Crown should be attacked for being what it is and appealing to who it appeals to but that a greater variety of voices should be supported & respected.
So you think "erotic imagery" has no meaning outside of how it's rendered, much like water has no meaning outside of how it's rendered--it's just aesthetics. And the "harm" you speak of has nothing to do with how well it meshes with the game or context, but whether or not the imagery meshes with the art style.
I dont think the word you are thinking is "oppressed".... maybe lumbago?
GenericBadGuy
Member
I wouldn't call that derailing or detracting, I think you're actually trying to put this thread back on the rails.
Unless you were being sarcastic and now I ruined the joke.
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