Don't you get it? Large breasts in media are bad, little girls are okay.
It's just Lime's opinion that it's a white, male hobby. Take it with a grain of salt.
Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer
- Thread starter Takao
- Start date
Don't you get it? Large breasts in media are bad, little girls are okay.
It's just Lime's opinion that it's a white, male hobby. Take it with a grain of salt.
No, I am not referring to whether or not the sexual design of the Sorceress is diegetically justified in its sexualized aspects by the character being "strong". I am talking about how the design is a symptom or contributes to a larger problem within video game culture, i.e. that it is a male-pandering medium.
Because, do you seriously think this design has a female audience in mind?
Sure, we might get some dialogue or cutscenes or what have you that establishes the character as being a strong woman with justified reasons for why her clothing is like this when fighting against monsters, but that doesn't neglect the off-hand impression other people get from this sort of design - that is, that it's targeted and aimed at heterosexual males.
When people say incorrect statements that maintain the status quo, I have to speak out. Unfortunately the same misguided and incorrect statements are being made again and again, and so the same valid and sound counter-arguments get thrown on the table again and again.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
Real talk, it's not as easy to complain about something if you have to look further than an image to see what's horrible. I hate those fuckin games, brrrgh. Makes me feel disgusting.
Not over-the-top enough.
Delusibeta
Banned
Most of the Atelier criticism was "ew, lolis", I don't think anyone went "this is sexist".
djplaeskool
Member
Behold, the power of frilly DLC swimsuits.
Karsticles
Member
The "herbivore men" are defined as those who are "not without romantic relationships, but [have] a non-assertive, indifferent attitude towards desire of flesh". Yeah, I doubt that applies here. Especially since such individuals are generally without the desire to succeed, and Kamitani is a very ambitious individual.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Reading more of these studies its kind of obvious that impressionable children and people (both male and female) with low self-esteem should avoid media with sexualized people in it.
Well, it's a pretty outdated thread (there are newer Dragon's Crown threads) and there is nothing really else to talk about other than the "dumb" design of the sorcerer. I'm fine with Lime bringing up some points about the effects of over sexualized characters and whatnot, because really this thread would be on page 10 without the discussion.
But it'll be mighty annoying if people are trying to have this discussion in say, the OT on release week.
ps: also why are people drawing on a wang on her? for all the discussion of the sorcerer being this representation of pandering male fantasy it's kinda odd that the one thing people would change is that she should pack heat.
nailbombxx
Member
Considering he has been drawing this stuff for a very long time I really doubt he gives a shit.
djplaeskool
Member
He'll probably think twice before popping off on Facebook again.
I've never seen his artwork singled out like this before. Gamasutra, Venturebeat, Kotaku, Penny Arcade. All shitting on the guy.
Okay then explain why they also put a short girl in with very small breasts and other girls who are all strong in their own ways? Your argument makes no sense because
a)it's focusing on ONE character/archetype of many different archetypes present within the game
b)you're saying that even though the girl's design and powers make perfect sense and are not completely unrealistic, they don't belong in the game because some people might see artistic vision as a "symptom of a larger problem"
You're telling us right now that even though large breasted girls can be strong and respectable, they don't belong in media anywhere because some people can't see how said female is a strong character and only focus on her physical assets?
In other words your saying "this example is fine in itself but it shouldn't be in a game because of certain mindsets". Which is essentially a call for censorship so not to offend certain sensibilities/warped mindsets.
SolidSnakex
Member
Actually, Penny Arcade wrote an article defending the art. Of course Ben wrote one jumping all over him.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Just a few posts ago you said "white male." Why did you broaden your definition to include all males? Was it because the game's Japanese origin was pointed out to you?
Also, do you seriously think that no females like this design? If you do, you're already calling a few posters in this very thread liars.
Sure, we might get some dialogue or cutscenes or what have you that establishes the character as being a strong woman with justified reasons for why her clothing is like this when fighting against monsters, but that doesn't neglect the off-hand impression other people get from this sort of design - that is, that it's targeted and aimed at heterosexual males.
Why do you get to decide the target audience? You're all but saying that females "aren't allowed" to like these designs. By doing so, aren't you being even more patronizing than the very designs you're criticizing, and culture that you claim them to be symptoms of, simply by telling people what they should or shouldn't like based on their gender?
Everyone here is posting opinions. You really should stop acting like you know everything and that your opinion is fact somehow.
Somebody's been checking out the doujins. Just enjoy the ride, mah bro.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I don't know that I could ever think something is exempt from criticism. That's like saying no one should have an opinion on something.
We've sort of been over this already in here, but after you've educated me a bit more, I suppose I'd still maintain this style embraces exaggeration along the lines of caricature, and I base this on the thematically consistent art direction present throughout the game, and the over the top fantasy context. I also don't feel that the sorceress is a character who in this game world would not choose to be portrayed as she is. I do not feel that she is a virtual victim being exploited solely for the base impulses of the audience. I'm fairly confident though that she is on some level being exploited for the base impulses of the artist, but I'm not sure how to approach that in an argument. I personally do not consider her design offensive because of all of this.
The game is most definitely trying to appeal to a certain demographic, I'm just not sure we can be as certain of the size or variety of those outside that demographic who find these characters just as appealing. I'm not convinced just because some undoubtedly find the art offensive that we can conclude it is actively excluding or marginalizing anyone, or even less so that it is intended to do so.
Do you think that I'm just splitting hairs and on a practical level I'm just being an apologist?
Not a counter to your efforts or evidence, but couldn't all of this data support an argument that people would live better lives if not exposed to any media or only exposed to carefully engineered media?
Pretty ridiculous.
djplaeskool
Member
Guys from P-A are actually fans of the art.
It's more so a matter of the issue bringing the light the fact that design impacts decisions.
Tycho actually posted a very impassioned defense of it.
Weltall Zero
Member
For the full disclosure that nobody asked for, I would like nothing more than for the Sorceress and, to a lesser extent, Amazon to have more reasonable proportions, if only because a contemporary, Vanillaware-directed 2D spiritual sequel to the Capcom D&D arcades can't be anything if not one of my most desired games of all times, and I'm not exactly pleased when absolutely everyone I show the game to can't get over those particular design points. I myself am not a fan of these exaggerations, and I do believe they ultimately objectivize women, which is a) always a bad thing to do, and b) a near-constant in most videogames.
But I do understand that they are as exaggerated as the Fighter and Dwarf and it might be precisely cultural preconceptions that make me see something objectionable in the female designs and not the male ones... And in any case, to an extent that such a thing can exist, this is a much more "tasteful and artistic" kind of sexualization than the ubiquitous, perhaps subtler, perhaps more pernicious examples of objectification in other videogames.
In the end, the sad truth is that the very difficulty of agreeing on whether a particular example objectifies women or not, is mostly due to the background noise, the standard that the videogame (and most visual media) industry as a whole has set in that regard.
But I do understand that they are as exaggerated as the Fighter and Dwarf and it might be precisely cultural preconceptions that make me see something objectionable in the female designs and not the male ones... And in any case, to an extent that such a thing can exist, this is a much more "tasteful and artistic" kind of sexualization than the ubiquitous, perhaps subtler, perhaps more pernicious examples of objectification in other videogames.
In the end, the sad truth is that the very difficulty of agreeing on whether a particular example objectifies women or not, is mostly due to the background noise, the standard that the videogame (and most visual media) industry as a whole has set in that regard.
This is the hot witch hunt this week. Those advertising dollars are piling up I'm sure.
I appreciate that the guys making the comics at PA understand. They're creators and know that you're bound to step on some toes (wolf dick).
The others... Well, it's their job to agitate and regurgitate I suppose.
I'm not. The more strong attractive females I see, the better I feel about the industry in general. I'm offended by weak or ineffectual female characters.
The arguments about the exaggerated idealized art style are silly. If I had a body like that sorceress, you better believe I will wear clothes like that!
Neuromancer
Member
There's blood in the water now, and the sharks are getting whipped up into a frenzy.
JordanN
Banned
Where is the line between being attractive and being objectified?
If someone in real life did look like Sorceress, would video games never be allowed to portray her?
The definition of sexual objectification is a person who is only desired for sex so this actually takes into account all body types.
I think maybe Lime should concede their argument at this point.
Guys and girls both like sorceress because she's strong and hawt. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Lime thinks that media can portray them but that they also shouldn't. He's advocating excluding certain physical archetypes because some people are sexist.
Neuromancer
Member
I'm going to show my wife this video tonight and see what she thinks. I predict she'll find it ridiculous, but not be offended.
Not that it will prove anything, but I'm curious.
Not that it will prove anything, but I'm curious.
The whole problem in the first place is how the criticisms turn into 'attacks' on a 'group'. As if admiring or creating the art makes you a lesser person. Otherwise, discussion on this would be generally well-received.
This argument, that mainly started with the Kotaku article, assumes wrongdoing or 'hate' from a specific group to another - that's no the case.
Jason did apologize, so obviously there was wrong doing there, when no apology is expected from the artist.
Future discussions of this kind need to be written with regard to the content itself and not the intention of wrong doing.
This argument, that mainly started with the Kotaku article, assumes wrongdoing or 'hate' from a specific group to another - that's no the case.
Jason did apologize, so obviously there was wrong doing there, when no apology is expected from the artist.
Future discussions of this kind need to be written with regard to the content itself and not the intention of wrong doing.
Oh I know Lime, you're my hero, fight on brother/sister, fight on
djplaeskool
Member
The argument is still cohesive. There may be the question of how impactful this particular title might be in the grand scheme of things, but it's kind of foolish to deny the wider issue.
report back soon please. also show her the Dwarf trailer.
I'm not saying there is no sexism issue in video games when there clearly is. I'm saying that the sorceress is a terrible example to focus on, and makes no sense in light of the argument.
The people with the problem only focus on physical attributes and not who the character is. The argument is bogus and does not work for Dragon's Crown.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Someone really needs to define what this "wider issue" exactly is. I keep seeing it thrown around, but I have a feeling a lot of people are working with different interpretations.
SolidSnakex
Member
They've also taken the art as a whole into account instead of just focusing in on the Sorceress like every other site. That probably helps a lot with their opinion.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/04/24/character-selection
Yes, both men and women feel a decline in self-esteem. Does that excuse further marginalisation or contribution to lower self-esteem? No. Besides, I don't see any reason not to deny that media representation matters - of course it does.
Yes, media representation matters, I agree completely.
I agree, but the design that some audiences want certainly doesn't help matters in general (which is my point).
People brought up the problem or failed to recognize the problem, mostly after Jason Schreier's "rebuttal". Therefore, I addressed the "problem" and gave reasons why people might criticize the design because of its symptomatic nature.
I unfortunately am not familiar or well-versed in Japanese society and culture to know about its marginalization of people with unchosen inequalities, therefore I only speak about stuff I know about
But if it's the case that media representation is similar and matters as much in Japanese society as it does in European and North-American societies, then sure, there would be an issue of the representation contributing to a marginalizing and exclusionary tendency in the video games medium and culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
Read my post again. I'm not talking about consumers or players. I am talking about *the industry* and *virtual representation of demographics*
Nice post, Warm Machine. It's interesting to read about people's own personal experiences, so thanks for contributing. I completely agree.
michaelius
Banned
That's why humanity invented ad block to make sure Kotakus of the world don't get undeserved revenue from clickbaits.
Delusibeta
Banned
He didn't. He apologised for calling the character designer a 14 year old boy, and then launched the "attack" on a "group" argument.
Neuromancer
Member
radios shipping overview
Member
Gaming sites have it pretty good these days: they can splash boobs all over their front pages while maintaining the moral high ground by talking about how socially irresponsible those gargantuan boobs are.
Devolution
Member
Yeah or complain a game/character design is sexist while they ignore the contrary opinions of women.
Neuromancer
Member
Thanks
Crimson_Gold
Member
For starters, I still don't know why the game didn't get this overwhelming a reaction when the character designs where first unveiled what? 18 months ago? This video wasn't the first time we saw the sorceress. But whatever.
I guess the main reason I'm not upset at this game is because I know Vanillaware and Kamitani aren't behaving like typical video game artists we all complain about when they draw sexualized female characters. ALL of their previous games have featured strong female leads who don't have freaking ridiculous proportions. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I trust Vanillaware on this one because I "know" them. What would be your reaction if Naughty Dog's next game had a protagonist like Bayonetta? I would at least give them the benefit of the doubt until I see the writing behind the game for which they're usually so well-known.
The last thing is, when I look at the sorceress and amazon, to me they don't just look sexualized, more like completely crazy. I can't see how anyone would take it seriously.
I understand the anger from people who've seen way too many fantasy RPGs with scantily clad female warriors, but I'm giving Vanillaware the benefit of the doubt on this one because I know that's now how they roll.
I guess the main reason I'm not upset at this game is because I know Vanillaware and Kamitani aren't behaving like typical video game artists we all complain about when they draw sexualized female characters. ALL of their previous games have featured strong female leads who don't have freaking ridiculous proportions. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I trust Vanillaware on this one because I "know" them. What would be your reaction if Naughty Dog's next game had a protagonist like Bayonetta? I would at least give them the benefit of the doubt until I see the writing behind the game for which they're usually so well-known.
The last thing is, when I look at the sorceress and amazon, to me they don't just look sexualized, more like completely crazy. I can't see how anyone would take it seriously.
I understand the anger from people who've seen way too many fantasy RPGs with scantily clad female warriors, but I'm giving Vanillaware the benefit of the doubt on this one because I know that's now how they roll.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Work bandwith caps suck. If the worst these studies can find is a mild and temporary reduction in self esteem around attractive characters then it just confirms that dragons crown won't see a mass market success, but not the harm the hyperbole here suggests.