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[The Boat]

You mean going down the list and skipping anything done by Nintendo? Yes, we know Nintendo fans buy Nintendo games.

The discussion, it seems to be, is based on the fact that Nintendo only created a space for fitness/party/sports, yet I'm seeing good selling platformers, action, adventure and fighters. There definitely was a market for more that fitness/party/sports, but few dug into it.
EDIT: Which isn't to say, a big part of the audience didn't go for those types of games, after all it's what brought the expanded crowd, but ignoring the success of other genres on purpose is disingenuous.

 

[Rehynn]

Gamecube is proof nintendo software alone is not enough to make a successful console.

Um... the GameCube actually made more money than the PS3 and the 360.

 

[metalslimer]

Well, Nintendo hasn't learned in the three previous generations and doesn't seem to have learned for this gen either. Also, at least when Sony wasn't listening to developers they were still selling quite well (and yes, the PS3 has sold quite well, all things being considered). Nintendo didn't sell well with the N64, GC, and now with the Wii U. The Wii was a fluke and it's quite clear to most folks that the very audience that sent the Wii into the heavens has abandoned Nintendo just like Nintendo abandoned the Wii owners.

You see I don't necessarily think the Wii was a fluke because just like the DS Nintendo had a very coordinated plan and their marketing was on fire and on point on everything. Unfortunately Nintendo decided that instead of doing something no one had seen before like with the Wii and DS they would follow the market trends and put out a device with a 3D screen (yay Avatar) and device that looked like a tablet (Yay iPad). If Nintendo had gone with something like Occulus Rift as their USP for Wii U instead of a gamepad, they would be doing much better. Nintendo with the Wii and DS was about capturing people's imagination so I don't know what the hell happened with Wii U

Um... the GameCube actually made more money than the PS3 and the 360.

Oh god please stop with the revisionist history. We have no idea how much the gamecube made because the GBA was doing gangbusters at the time. In fact, the only Nintendo loss before the fiasco of the last few years was when they had to shut gamecube production down. The gamecube was not some huge success.

 

[StevieP]

By the very nature of Sony losing every penny they ever made in gaming with the ps3, I don't think that statement can be outright dismissed.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

You see I don't necessarily think the Wii was a fluke because just like the DS Nintendo had a very coordinated plan and their marketing was on fire and on point on everything. Unfortunately Nintendo decided that instead of doing something no one had seen before like with the Wii and DS they would follow the market trends and put out a device with a 3D screen (yay Avatar) and device that looked like a tablet (Yay iPad). If Nintendo had gone with something like Occulus Rift and their USP for Wii U instead of a gamepad, they would be doing much better. Nintendo with the Wii and DS was about capturign people's imagination so I don't know what the hell happened with Wii U

Hmm, that's actually a really valid point. I never considered what would have happened had Nintendo implemented an Occulus Rift type of system. That really is something that would be revolutionary just like the Wii was. Ugh metal, now you just have depressed me thinking of what could have been. =/

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

Um... the GameCube actually made more money than the PS3 and the 360.

I made more money than the PS3.

 

[Risette]

By the very nature of Sony losing every penny they ever made in gaming with the ps3, I don't think that statement can be outright dismissed.

Yes it can, because we don't know the GC numbers. It's not something that can be decided.

 

[StevieP]

Yes it can, because we don't know the GC numbers. It's not something that can be decided.

Just a hunch but I think the GameCube may have made more than -billions despite its market failure

 

[Antiwhippy]

Just a hunch but I think the GameCube may have made more than -billions despite its market failure

Did it make more than the 360 though?

 

[metalslimer]

Just a hunch but I think the GameCube may have made more than -billions despite its market failure

Well I wasn't referring to the PS3 there. There is no way the gamecube lost that much. But the 360 in the end will most likely be more profitable especially as it won't die immediately. The PS3 is an unmitigated disaster financially.

 

[Zoramon089]

Hmm, that's actually a really valid point. I never considered what would have happened had Nintendo implemented an Occulus Rift type of system. That really is something that would be revolutionary just like the Wii was. Ugh metal, now you just have depressed me thinking of what could have been. =/

And it would have been a colossal flop because 3rd parties still wouldn't want to use it. I mean you have them making excuses about not being able to come up with games for a STANDARD CONTROLLER (with a screen). A rift type of console would have alienated them even more

 

[Rehynn]

Oh god please stop with the revisionist history. We have no idea how much the gamecube made because the GBA was doing gangbusters at the time. In fact, the only Nintendo loss before the fiasco of the last few years was when they had to shut gamecube production down. The gamecube was not some huge success.

Who said it was "huge" success?

It's widely regarded as an endeavor that made the company money, unlike the other two consoles I mentioned.

Until you can show me evidence to the contrary, your guess as to how much money the GC made is as good as mine, so please don't act like I said something ridiculous.

And my greater point doesn't even have anything to do with the GC.

 

[QaaQer]

The discussion, it seems to be, is based on the fact that Nintendo only created a space for fitness/party/sports, yet I'm seeing good selling platformers, action, adventure and fighters. There definitely was a market for more that fitness/party/sports, but few dug into it.
EDIT: Which isn't to say, a big part of the audience didn't go for those types of games, after all it's what brought the expanded crowd, but ignoring the success of other genres on purpose is disingenuous.

In a discussion about 3rd paty developers, you have to remove 1st pary Nintendo games from that list. Once you've done that, yeah dance/party/fitness/kids games predominate.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

And it would have been a colossal flop because 3rd parties still wouldn't want to use it. I mean you have them making excuses about not being able to come up with games for a STANDARD CONTROLLER (with a screen). A rift type of console would have alienated them even more

In other words it wouldnt have been worse than the Wii U but would probably have reached a larger install base just like the Wii.

So yea, Metal was right.

 

[Amir0x]

Hmm, that's actually a really valid point. I never considered what would have happened had Nintendo implemented an Occulus Rift type of system. That really is something that would be revolutionary just like the Wii was. Ugh metal, now you just have depressed me thinking of what could have been. =/

Nah, you wouldn't have wanted that. No way they could have got a competent Occulus Rift system out by the end of even this year at a mass market price... much less you have to consider the view like that works really best only for first person games. For the rest it seems to be a novelty so far. So there would be kinks to work out of that armor as well. Not ready until at least 2018 imo

I'm curious what will play out if the PS4 and Next Xbox are both $500. Don't you think they risk pricing themselves out of the current console market? Sony's $600 lead balloon lost them billions and that was prior to a worldwide recession. Now today in 2013, we still haven't recovered all those jobs, gas and food are more expensive worldwide than they have ever been, and IMO we are going to run up against entertainment hardware that's is priced well above a mass market price. I'm not saying there isn't a market for them, clearly there is among early adopters, but I think that market is even smaller than it was in 2005 and 2006. The Wii U has it's own unique set of problems, but I think there will be challenges for PS4 and Durango to overcome too. Time will tell.

I don't think the Vita and 3DS comparison is a totally broken analogy, at least in terms of price.

Yeah, I think it's a very interesting debate over what will happen with PS4 and Xbox 720. Some people are saying the market can support 2 $500 platforms, but I actually don't think that'll happen... if anything, it'll support one of those, and the other will tank so hard as to make it almost immediately unappealing to any developer.

I really hope both platforms can come in at $399.99. At worst, maybe a $449.99 with a subsidy at $299.99. But Microsoft and Sony have better tread carefully... the entire market re-evaluated a little bit what was important to them after the economic collapse, and there is no guarantee that you can sell a premium product to people who are only casual acquaintances with videogames (say, individuals who come in only to play Call of Duty).

I do believe Sony is on the right track so far with their extremely pro-consumer message and pro-developer support/indie support push (as has been verified by almost any dev who cared to comment), but they just need to hit it right on price.

I cannot even fathom what Durango will do right now to turn around every single bad rumour that has bled out over the platform, but I hope it is priced right so that Sony must fight harder still.

Amirox killing it in here. Perfectly encapsulates how I, and I'm sure many other people feel. Nintendo is my favorite developer, so yes I will be as harsh as possible because the level of talent overall in my opinion has the capability of being far above the rest of the industry, so when they make horrendous mistakes and then make a bunch of excuses I'm not going to give them a break until they fix these mistakes or at least look like they have plan and aren't running around like cuccos.

"I hate because I love", as the saying goes. :brofist:

So frustrating. And Bayonetta and W101's incoming supernova bombs sadden me =( Hopefully by some miracle they do well

You have no idea how badly I am hoping this. I am pretty safe in assuming if Bayonetta 2 doesn't do well we won't ever see a third on any platform... unless Nintendo is in the mood to be super generous. In which case, Wii U purchase continually justified!

Wonderful 101 was just a delight when I played it, I cannot imagine the full game being anything other than unadulterated pure gaming bliss.

Damn Amir0x ice cold... But completely true.

Amir0x is killin' it. I just wanted to pop in and say awesome posts.

Appreciate the kind words. I think one of the things people should understand is how much people who criticize Nintendo very often love the company itself. It's really painful when someone as talented as them make mistakes that you feel are obvious and avoidable, particularly if (like me) you believe competition is critical.

I hope they manage it with Wii U, because I actually think it's a fine system in of itself... just needs a better OS and a better approach to the games library. Once that is in order, I see no reason why it couldn't be on par with what I consider a classic videogame console - The Gamecube. And no, that's not sarcasm. <3 Gamecube.

If you keep this going you can probably keep this thread alive all by yourself

<Flightmare> I think I have something to add...

 

[royalan]

Who said it was "huge" success?

It's widely regarded as an endeavor that made the company money, unlike the other two consoles I mentioned.

Until you can show me evidence to the contrary, your guess as to how much money the GC made is as good as mine, so please don't act like I said something ridiculous.

And my greater point doesn't even have anything to do with the GC.

Making money doesn't equal success, though.

The Gamecube sold poorly, came in third, and greatly diminished Nintendo's presence in the market at large. Nintendo had to slash the price several times and actually halt factory production to keep from losing money.

The Gamecube was not a success.

 

[StevieP]

In a discussion about 3rd paty developers, you have to remove 1st pary Nintendo games from that list. Once you've done that, yeah dance/party/fitness/kids games predominate.

The original quote said Nintendo only cultivated dance and party games on their console, and that's why 3rd parties only produced that for the console with any significant effort. That's been the narrative all generation and that doesn't seem to be the case. There are a wide variety games across many genres (outside of fps-type titles obviously)

 

[The Boat]

In a discussion about 3rd paty developers, you have to remove 1st pary Nintendo games from that list. Once you've done that, yeah dance/party/fitness/kids games predominate.

They were talking about the market being there for those games, about Nintendo creating it, so it's completely logical to bring them up, not to mention that not all games were 1st party.

 

[metalslimer]

By the way I don't think Occulus Rift is ready for a console yet. It was an example of a type of idea NIntendo should be going for instead of following the crowd. To be honest Nintendo cannot have it both ways. They can't throw some wild idea into the console, make it underpowered and expect developers or consumers to flock to it. If Nintendo wants to be the unique console maker in the industry, then fucking do it and do it right by investing in a lot more talent than they have. The current lineup for Wii U is abysmally pathetic and that's why no one is going to spend 300-350 dollars on that. Who besides hardcore Nintendo fans are? And hell I consider myself a hardcore Nintendo fan and am not even remotely interested at the current price. Lightning may not strike twice for Nintendo, but they have a better chance of getting struck again than their current half assed methods

 

[Tenki]

I see a lot of people blaming Nintendo (sometimes with more reasons, sometimes with less), but what are your suggestions?

I mean, third party games don't sell well on Nintendo consoles, but when almost every big game skips the console, and when it comes is several months later and at full price, it's so obvious that it won't sell. Customers are not that stupid and prefer to buy the game at $20 on other console.

It's like a vicious cycle. Third party devs complain about sales, but they don't do anything to fix the situation. Nintendo can't force them to release all their big guns on Wii U.

So what would you do if you were Nintendo?

 

[metalslimer]

I see a lot of people blaming Nintendo (sometimes with more reasons, sometimes with less), but what are your suggestions?

I mean, third party games don't sell well on Nintendo consoles, but when almost every big game skips the console, and when it comes is several months later and at full price, it's so obvious that it won't sell. Customers are not that stupid and prefer to buy the game at $20 on other console.

It's like a vicious cycle. Third party devs complain about sales, but they don't do anything to fix the situation. Nintendo can't force them to release all their big guns on Wii U.

So what would you do if you were Nintendo?

Nintendo can't force them but the fact that almost every big game this year from weaker consoles is skipping Wii U is pathetic. At the very least they should have paid to get a simple port of Grand Theft Auto. Also Nintendo were the ones who decided to release their console after Call of Duty and AC3 came out last year so that's on them and its also their fault dev kits went out late. Nintendo is certainly improving their relations but they have a LOOOONNGG way to go.It's a vicious cycle that Nintendo has to break because 3rd parties aren't obligated to do anything for them. That's why Nintendo is blamed because it's their platform that are missing out on these games and is currently failing hard. Third parties aren't missing out on the meager sub 100k sales their missing from ports. And unless there is a mass number of Nintendo fans that won't buy another console, their games will get bought either way.

 

[wrowa]

In a discussion about 3rd paty developers, you have to remove 1st pary Nintendo games from that list. Once you've done that, yeah dance/party/fitness/kids games predominate.

Once you exclude Nintendo games, the statement pretty much becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy since 3rd parties have never put anything else on the console to begin with. Cheap lightgun spin-offs, ports and B- to C-tier games won't set the world on fire regardless on what plattform it's on. That's pretty obvious.

But, yeah, it's a pretty useless discussion since we'll never get an answer to the "what ifs". Maybe the Wii could've been a better plattform for 3rd parties if they put more effort into it, maybe it couldn't have been. No way of knowing, really.

 

[Justzisguyukno]

I cannot even fathom what Durango will do right now to turn around every single bad rumour that has bled out over the platform, but I hope it is priced right so that Sony must fight harder still.

If the rumors of the subsidized version are true, I can't help but think it will sell extremely well due to the low entry cost.

 

[Raist]

What a unique way of selecting the titles that serve your point, bravo.

How is that selective? It's Nintendo everywhere...
Now compare with the PS2 for instance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PlayStation_2_video_games

 

[goomba]

Because ps4 and iXbox have huge install bases right?

 

[Zoramon089]

In other words it wouldnt have been worse than the Wii U but would probably have reached a larger install base just like the Wii.

So yea, Metal was right.

No. It would have been worse and sold worse. Nintendo would still be in the same position of having trouble transitioning to HD but instead of having a few 3rd party games they'd have none

 

[shinra-bansho]

In a discussion about 3rd paty developers, you have to remove 1st pary Nintendo games from that list. Once you've done that, yeah dance/party/fitness/kids games predominate.

Platformers was an omission on my part. Nintendo certainly cultivated an audience for those too.

I really don't see why people are trying to dispute the idea that the Wii, as a product in its entirety, was not aimed at the traditional gaming demographics by Nintendo but rather targeted at broader audiences, young audiences, older audiences, female audiences, different audiences than the traditional market.

 

[Amir0x]

Because ps4 and iXbox have huge install bases right?

Collectively they will have a higher install base in 6 months i bet

 

[royalan]

I see a lot of people blaming Nintendo (sometimes with more reasons, sometimes with less), but what are your suggestions?

I mean, third party games don't sell well on Nintendo consoles, but when almost every big game skips the console, and when it comes is several months later and at full price, it's so obvious that it won't sell. Customers are not that stupid and prefer to buy the game at $20 on other console.

It's like a vicious cycle. Third party devs complain about sales, but they don't do anything to fix the situation. Nintendo can't force them to release all their big guns on Wii U.

So what would you do if you were Nintendo?

Cultivate the audience - If Nintendo wants 3rd parties to release their best games on the system, they need to prove that there is an audience there to buy them. Stop relying on their legacy franchises and create new IPs in different genres, then promote them like crazy. When the Nintendo faithful inevitably buy them it'll show 3rd parties that Nintendo gamers aren't just there for Mario/Link/Donkey Kong/Samus, we're here for good games, period. Nintendo KNOWS how to do this; it's exactly what they did with their casual games.

Reach out to the development community - Nintendo needs to leave their Japan bubble and have more of a presense in the western development community. Whether or not Nintendo or their fans want to admit it, the West is where it's at right now. Actually ATTEND GDC, mingle, make deals, whore your hardware. Get a sense of what developers want out of the hardware for their games and then ACTUALLY give it to them. Cultivate relationships.

Expand - It's becoming increasingly clear that Nintendo isn't big enough to run the type of business they're in. Not anymore. And it's every bit within their power to expand. They've got the capital. They've got the security. They need to just do it. Grow the Japanese studios (already started as of '11). Allow NOE of NOA some autonomy and allow them to expand, as well. In this day an age Nintendo should NOT be so small that they can't even manage to support their TWO devices with software in a timely fashion, especially when there's an audience there for that software. Nintendo is leaving so much money on the table by remaining so small it's insane.

Fire Iwata, leash Miyamoto, do a clean sweep of the board - the sad thing, and the reason why so many people get so passionately upset with Nintendo, is that a lot of the things Nintendo needs to do are SO obvious. SO. FUCKING. OBVIOUS. But the very core of Nintendo's management group seems to be so rooted in increasingly archaic design and business philosphies that it is just impossible to see how the people currently in charge will ever wake up and understand what needs to be done to be compeitive in today's market. Iwata's going to keep hording Nintendo's money and playing ultra-conservative. He's going to remain sequestered in Japan, and he's going to keep making the same fucking mistakes. He's proven that, and it's becoming increasingly apparent that type of changes Nintendo needs are far beyond his scope of thinking. Time for fresh faces with fresh ideas. Nintendo WILL survive it.

 

[wrowa]

If the rumors of the subsidized version are true, I can't help but think it will sell extremely well due to the low entry cost.

Is it not possible to pay for stuff in installments in the US? Where I'm living, I could go into the next electronics store and buy for example a Wii U for, I don't know, 20&#8364; a month for the next 24 months. It's a rather common practice -- and it's still not being used that often for something like consoles, since people don't like to have unneccessary monthly fees they need to pay every month.


Edit: On an unrelated matter, if the rumors are true that Kimishima is being set up as the successor to Iwata if he should have to step back next year, I'll go on record to say the following: That would be Nintendo's death. Everyone who's raging over Iwata would soon wish him back once a 72-year old is in charge of the ship, who is probably even more conservative than Iwata ever was.

 

[NateDrake]

You have no idea how badly I am hoping this. I am pretty safe in assuming if Bayonetta 2 doesn't do well we won't ever see a third on any platform... unless Nintendo is in the mood to be super generous. In which case, Wii U purchase continually justified!

Wonderful 101 was just a delight when I played it, I cannot imagine the full game being anything other than unadulterated pure gaming bliss.

I think some media outlets, analysts, and forums -- NeoGAF -- will declare Wonderful 101 a bomb even if it sells 250k in North America. It could be a success financially, however. I just know I need that game

 

[TreasureHunterG]

Cultivate the audience - If Nintendo wants 3rd parties to release their best games on the system, they need to prove that there is an audience there to buy them. Stop relying on their legacy franchises and create new IPs in different genres, then promote them like crazy. When the Nintendo faithful inevitably buy them it'll show 3rd parties that Nintendo gamers aren't just there for Mario/Link/Donkey Kong/Samus, we're here for good games, period. Nintendo KNOWS how to do this; it's exactly what they did with their casual games.

Reach out to the development community - Nintendo needs to leave their Japan bubble and have more of a presense in the western development community. Whether or not Nintendo or their fans want to admit it, the West is where it's at right now. Actually ATTEND GDC, mingle, make deals, whore your hardware. Get a sense of what developers want out of the hardware for their games and then ACTUALLY give it to them. Cultivate relationships.

Expand - It's becoming increasingly clear that Nintendo isn't big enough to run the type of business they're in. Not anymore. And it's every bit within their power to expand. They've got the capital. They've got the security. They need to just do it. Grow the Japanese studios (already started as of '11). Allow NOE of NOA some autonomy and allow them to expand, as well. In this day an age Nintendo should NOT be so small that they can't even manage to support their TWO devices with software in a timely fashion, especially when there's an audience there for that software. Nintendo is leaving so much money on the table by remaining so small it's insane.

Fire Iwata, leash Miyamoto, do a clean sweep of the board - the sad thing, and the reason why so many people get so passionately upset with Nintendo, is that a lot of the things Nintendo needs to do are SO obvious. SO. FUCKING. OBVIOUS. But the very core of Nintendo's management group seems to be so rooted in increasingly archaic design and business philosphies that it is just impossible to see how the people currently in charge will ever wake up and understand what needs to be done to be compeitive in today's market. Iwata's going to keep hording Nintendo's money and playing ultra-conservative. He's going to remain sequestered in Japan, and he's going to keep making the same fucking mistakes. He's proven that, and it's becoming increasingly apparent that type of changes Nintendo needs are far beyond his scope of thinking. Time for fresh faces with fresh ideas. Nintendo WILL survive it.

They had the opportunity to fire Iwata now. I guess Iwata does have major influence and control over the company, this explains his promotion after all the mistakes he made and two years in a row bleeding money.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I see a lot of people blaming Nintendo (sometimes with more reasons, sometimes with less), but what are your suggestions?

First, suggestions don't need to exist. There are intractable, unsolveable problems. I don't have suggestions for Research in Motion/Blackberry right now, because I think they're hosed. I think it is impossible for them to continue being a serious player. There could be some reality where they continue to exist as a company, but not at all in the present form.

I don't have suggestions for Yahoo right now, because I think they're hosed. They've got cash, and they've tried using it to buy up-and-comers, but something is clearly so dysfunctional that they can't integrate those acquisitions well or incubate them into profitable tech.

So, coming back to Nintendo. I don't think they are necessarily hosed, not at all. Certainly in a better position than the prior two companies mentioned. But it is possible that people have identified problems that do not have solutions. That's life.

It's like a vicious cycle. Third party devs complain about sales, but they don't do anything to fix the situation.

Largely third parties do not complain about sales. They go about their way. They are happy with the choices they make. They make a token investment. If it doesn't work, no biggie. If it does, more's the better. EA isn't complaining about the Wii U, they simply aren't supporting it. They seem happy with that decision.

Nintendo does complain about the situation, normally in the form of an apology and a promise to do things different next time.

Nintendo can't force them to release all their big guns on Wii U.

Can't or won't? You don't think $100,000,000 interest free advances to publishers would have got more software support this year? "That's not feasible". Probably not. But they do have money and they could choose to use it. They think their current strategy is better. That's fine.

So what would you do if you were Nintendo?

If I was Nintendo and what? If I wanted to capture the attention of western developers? I'd shift the company's center of gravity to North America. Period. That's it. Everything else flows logically from having a company that's in North America and looking to North America first. I'm not kidding. Most staff should be English. The hardware engineers should be English. The companies they consult with should be North American. The talent they should hire and incubate should be North American.

None of this is to suggest that Japan is in any way inferior, but rather than if you are trying to partner with companies in the North American timezone, if you are trying to provide APIs and hardware and development support to North American companies, if you are trying to participate in the industry's North American circuit, you put more emphasis on North America and less on Japan.

 

[PhantomR]

Well, either way this goes, one thing that we can agree with is that they definitely got Nintendo's attention now.

I wouldn't imagine how.

If it was Ubisoft, Wayforward, Shin'en, 5th cell, Renegade Kid, or any other pubs/devs that are pretty tight with Nintendo, then sure no problem.

But these guys? No.

 

[Amir0x]

I think some media outlets, analysts, and forums -- NeoGAF -- will declare Wonderful 101 a bomb even if it sells 250k in North America. It could be a success financially, however. I just know I need that game

I think if Wonderful 101 sold 250k in North America it'd be a miracle, so I hope people don't declare that a failure. It cannot possibly be a massively large budgeted game, can it? (not a knock against the game, btw)

 

[akira28]

Wii U looking more and more like a disaster everyday.

I think what...I hope what Ninty is going to do is go indie and go with a lot of colorful HD games with oldschool sensibilities.

If Nintendo has their finger in the air, they could Yin where Microsoft and Sony Yang and have a really good thing going. They could be the premiere non-AAA title game system. They should be able to hear the complaints about their rivals and try to work on that. Beat them at the game they're not playing, hit them on price points, hit them with smaller scale titles. (NOT shorter, just smaller scale. Gaming fundamentals are still the same, even if the visuals have changed.)

 

[metalslimer]

I wouldn't imagine how.

If it was Ubisoft, Wayforward, Shin'en, 5th cell, Renegade Kid, or any other pubs/devs that are pretty tight with Nintendo, then sure no problem.

But these guys? No.

And that's exactly why they'll continue along the path of shit support if true.

I think if Wonderful 101 sold 250k in North America it'd be a miracle, so I hope people don't declare that a failure. It cannot possibly be a massively large budgeted game, can it? (not a knock against the game, btw)

If they manage to ship 500k I will do a dance

 

[Oddduck]

I think what...I hope what Ninty is going to do is go indie and go with a lot of colorful HD games with oldschool sensibilities.

If Nintendo has their finger in the air, they could Yin where Microsoft and Sony Yang and have a really good thing going. They could be the premiere non-AAA title game system.

But Sony is going after indies too. Indies aren't a Nintendo exclusive thing.

 

[Tenki]

.

Maybe I seemed to be accusing people of complaining but not giving ideas, but that wasn't my point. I just wanted to know possible solutions to this situation, what you answered in the last two paragraphs.

 

[Biker19]

They had the opportunity to fire Iwata now. I guess Iwata does have major influence and control over the company, this explains his promotion after all the mistakes he made and two years in a row bleeding money.

And lots of broken promises that he had since first being president of Nintendo back in May or June of 2002. IMO, he should've been fired a long time ago.

 

[PhantomR]

Reach out to the development community - Nintendo needs to leave their Japan bubble and have more of a presense in the western development community. Whether or not Nintendo or their fans want to admit it, the West is where it's at right now. Actually ATTEND GDC, mingle, make deals, whore your hardware. Get a sense of what developers want out of the hardware for their games and then ACTUALLY give it to them. Cultivate relationships.

Dude, I've debated you on this before and completely shredded up this nonsense. PLEASE tell me you are referring to publishers and not indie developers. If you're referring to publishers, then I have no argument (although we don't know what Nintendo actually does behind closed doors, but still).

If you're referring to indie devs and smaller devs then what you just said is BS, and you know it, yet you keep putting headphones on with music at high blast to ignore the points that tear this shit up tenfold.

 

[metalslimer]

But Sony is going after indies too. Indies aren't a Nintendo exclusive thing.

Nor are they something that can sustain a platform as we will/are seeing with Vita.

If you're referring to indie devs and smaller devs then what you just said is BS, and you know it,

Why would he be talking about indies? The whole topic has been about big 3rd party support. Are you going to argue a point?

 

[Takamura-San]

 

[royalan]

Dude, I've debated you on this before and completely shredded up this nonsense. PLEASE tell me you are referring to publishers and not indie developers. If you're referring to publishers, then I have no argument (although we don't know what Nintendo actually does behind closed doors, but still).

If you're referring to indie devs and smaller devs then what you just said is BS, and you know it, yet you keep putting headphones on with music at high blast to ignore the points that tear this shit up tenfold.

....do you see the word "indie" anywhere in there?

 

[BlazinAm]

It's their fault if the dev kits are collecting dust. Maybe if they used them and had plans for the Wii U, they wouldn't be. Don't pin it on Nintendo. So many developers are saying Nintendo isn't hard to reach anymore, and why should they COPY Sony?

Here's a novel concept. If you have plans for a console, then the dev kit won't collect dust

If it their fault that the wii U doesn't have the install base to release their software.

This is just as bad as the lazy devs excuse you know.

Calling developers lazy has to be one of the most egocentric statements people can say.

I'm have no reason to assume this isn't true, but we've heard Nintendo has been very communicative from other people. Perhaps if Avalanche showed some interest in making a game for Wii U, Nintendo would reach out to them?

Do you have a source to back your claim.

I agree with the logic that even if Wii U were selling well these guys still would not be making Wii U games.

I love the Catch 22 with Nintendo consoles. If a Nintendo console is tanking, devs want nothing to do with it. If a Nintendo console is doing well, they don't want to develop for it because they don't want to compete with Nintendo.

The thing is that there was a lot of support for the wii it just wasn't from high profile developers so you feel this claim is valid.

Seems unfair to judge the Wii U right now when the only major title to appear on it is Mario. Just wait until Mario and Mario come out, then we'll see sales go up.

Seriously though, I am starting to agree with the sentiment this is likely the end of the road for Nintendo home consoles. Wii U is the first Nintendo console I haven't bought and to be frank probably wouldn't want at all if not for the fact Monolith is making games on it.

Black Mario, Red Martian Mario, Mario Mario... when those come out, look out Sony and Microsoft.

We're not going back to blaming the Wii U consumers again are we?

What no, the wii U just comes off as a bad value for developers and consumers end of story.

So what is stopping them from making a game for the thing? Because they are working on PS4/ Nextbox games which have a big ole 0 install base. Gotta start somewhere I suppose.

Next-gen hardware is expected to be sellers where as the wii U even months before launch, there was always a concern about how much market share it will get.

The Wii U trolls itself.

Truth.

Weird as indies seem to have no problems...

Depends it seems like NOA did a lot of outreach lately as for NOE... who knows.

Nintendo's death marked the death of the whole industry. R I P in peace.

Industry will do fine without Nintendo. They are kinda showing that now.

But people on gaf told me GameInformer was just being whiny babies that Nintendo wouldn't give them exclusives and not that their corporate structure is entirely closed in and unwelcoming to outside approach.

I think the issue there was that Game Informer always wanted to build a relationship wiht Nintendo and the response that one of their writers gave was towards a reader on twitter. Nintendo is known for not having the best relations with the press. Although Nintendo did get a cover story for NSMBU and the last Zelda game.

The ps3, even at $600, never sold as badly as the Wii U. I don't think people quite understand just how historically bad the Wii U is selling. We're way past simply "underperforming"

Done and done.

Last time i checked (earlier this year) their were roughly 1200 games released for the Wii.
360 was at around 900 & PS3 was around 800.

EA for instance released more games on the Wii than the ps3 or 360. Remember all of those "My Sims" games they released? Activision infamously released roughly 10 of those Cabela's hunting games on the Wii.

People have selective views about support for the wii, it just got all the budget developers.

 

[PhantomR]

....do you see the word "indie" anywhere in there?

You said "Actually ATTEND GDC, mingle, make deals, whore your hardware. Get a sense of what developers want out of the hardware for their games and then ACTUALLY give it to them. Cultivate relationships."


Did you not just pay any attention whatsoever to what Nintendo unveiled at GDC? The new developer website they opened at GDC? The new tools that Intel unviled to make porting Javascript over to the Wii U easy to do at GDC? The fact that Q.U.B.E. was up and running on the Wii U using the Nintendo web framework at GDC? That doesn't even mention the fact that Scirra is now interested in bringing Construct2 over to the Wii U, which would make bringing games over even easier than it is now.


From a small developer standpoint Nintendo has been ABSOLUTELY ACE. Full Stop. They need to be given just as much credit for when they do things right as for when they do things wrong. Third party support INCLUDES indie developer support. They're third parties as well. It's important to realize what's happening with Nintendo from a small developer standpoint and as well from a large publisher standpoint. Can't be lumping both of these groups into one thing.

 

[SMT]

Mario has got to be one of the most whored-out franchises in the gaming industry, dirty.
New IP that could save us? No, let's stick with the funky smelling plumber; retire ol' massive nose.

Wii U is selling worse than the aforementioned Sony console before it gained steam?
Of course, the PS3 had features people actually wanted to use, it wasn't solely a gaming system with no games, and a library of re-releases.
Oh, but WiiU can use Netflix, ladeedah, what doesn't have Netflix in this day and age?

To everyone saying Avalanche Studios isn't a big loss because they haven't developed games for the Wii in the past...
2006 Just Cause
2009 The Hunter
2010 Just Cause 2
2011 Renegade Ops

Which of these 4 games would run on Wii? Nintendo also shot itself in the foot from big dev support when they chose to go enter the market underpowered.
Wii U is confusing, and keeping the devs at bay when they can easily make a game for 360 and port it over to PS3.

 

[metalslimer]

Mario has got to be one of the most whored-out franchises in the gaming industry, dirty.
New IP that could save us? No, let's stick with the funky smelling plumber; retire ol' massive nose.

Wii U is selling worse than the aforementioned Sony console before it gained steam?
Of course, the PS3 had features people actually wanted to use, it wasn't solely a gaming system with no games.

Wut....

 

[CoffeeGames]

Wii U looking more and more like a disaster everyday.

I doubt it. What was the last game they made on a Nintendo console? Consider the source. It's a shame if Nintendo sent them dev kits really, and even a bigger shame if they bought them. Why waste dev kits on developers that have no interest and have a history of no interest, in developing games for your company's console? If they bought the dev kits, what a complete waste. That money could have been a developer's Christmas bonus at the very least.

 

[big youth]

W101 has bomba written all over it in NA. B2 has a chance if it gets advertised.

Nintendo is on the right track, expanding and creating an unprecedented number of partnerships.

Those suggesting they pay for multiplatform games are not thinking clearly. It'd be throwing money down the drain and create an environment that actually discourages support because holding out might result in a check from Nintendo.