Well, good job promoting Islam you twit.
http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/rss/print_503977.html
http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/rss/print_503977.html
Imam demands Ayaan Hirsi Ali death in pennsylvania.
- Thread starter Ripclawe
- Start date
- Status
What the hell is with these random unknown clerics making all these demands and threats? These guys are the biggest reasons for the problems involving integration of muslim youths into western society.
I mean I don't like the lies Ayaan Hirsi Ali says against Islam, but I don't think she should be killed for it, just ignored.
I mean I don't like the lies Ayaan Hirsi Ali says against Islam, but I don't think she should be killed for it, just ignored.
kablooey said:
Alot of stuff that she says is part of Islam isn't true (like female circumcision being part of Islam when it actually isn't, or honour killings being part of Islam when it actually isn't), I wouldn't know if she's making up the stories of her personal experiences though.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Ok, serious question to any Muslims who want to answer: how do you feel about the mandatory punishments for those who stop following Islam? Or is that not actually the correct interpretation?
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
GSG Flash said:
Ok...but doesn't Islam (or at least the Hadith, as RiZ III mentions) make a non-Quran-only Muslim obligated to support that sort of punishment?
Yes. Part of the Shariah comes from the Hadith. The law of killing apostates isn't made up by modern day clerics, it was formed ~2 centuries after Muhammad, so it is very old. Although much of the reason it came into being was political. Either way, if you are a Muslim who believes in the Shariah, and the Hadith, then I don't see how you can argue against this law.
Out of curiosity, which Hadith is that? I have heard the lines of the Quran that say 'Let there be no compulsion in religion' but have never heard of a Hadith on apostasy.
On Topic: I just ignore her. She just makes a load of stuff up and it is clear she has zero understanding of the religion.
On Topic: I just ignore her. She just makes a load of stuff up and it is clear she has zero understanding of the religion.
It is implied in several places, but here is one.
Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 84, # 57; a similar text also at Vol. 4, Book 52, # 260)
In the Quran, Muhammad is told to simply turn away from those who didn't believe.
Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 84, # 57; a similar text also at Vol. 4, Book 52, # 260)
In the Quran, Muhammad is told to simply turn away from those who didn't believe.
Chairman Yang said:
Depends on the hadith you follow, I don't follow the Sahih Bukhari because I'm not Sunni, therefore I don't support that. Even if the hadiths I follow supported that, I would be skeptical of it because it would be unislamic.
GSG Flash said:
You act as if there is only one islam. Isn't it clear that there are crazy fundamentalists all over africa and the middle east who genuinely believe in female circumcision and honor killings? Do you think they're doing it in the name of some other god instead of allah?
Though Hirsi is an athiest, she should be congratulated for going against islamic fundamentalism. True muslims should be striving to eliminate fundamentalist bullshit from the world.
Pellham said:
Ok seriously, shut up, I'm not going to explain or defend myself or Islam based on how some religious zealots act, I will defend/explain what is real Islam and honour killings and female circumcision aren't it.
Sandman7 said:
Even if that one is narrated by only one person, it is not the only place apostates are to be killed according to the Hadith.
(Bukhari - Book of Jihad Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260)
Narrated Ikrima:
The Prophet said 'If a muslim leaves his religion, kill him.'
Bukhari in general is very esteemed within Islam. Killing of apostates became part of the Shariah because of several reasons, the Hadith just make up some sayings to back it up.
So what? Why is this news? She's been walking around with bodyguards for years. Its not a secret she's hated by many, so you're bound to get these death statements by Imams who want to get some publicity and have nothing better to preach about. And Im sure she also enjoys the attention, so its win-win I guess. And shes not even a Muslim, so his point is pretty moot.
Primordial
Member
The Economist had an excellent article on Hirsi Ali's autobio and her career in Europe and America. It outs her life in a historical perspective.
http://economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_RGGPNPT
IF you have access to it through an institution then check it out. If you do not. I posted some excerps from it. However this does not excuse the Imam's words posted above. While it is true that historically the punishment for apostasy was death theoretically. In actual practices the carrying out of the law varied depending on whether the apostasy was politically motivated for not, whether the apostate was a convert or not etc.. In modern times many scholars have emphasized right to free ethical inquiry rooted in Quran and that changing circumstances requires certain aspects of the law to change.
http://www.economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8663231
Dark secrets
Feb 8th 2007
From The Economist print edition
Ayaan Hirsi Ali blames Islam for the miseries of the Muslim world. Her
new autobiography shows that life is too complex for that
Eyevine
SAY what you will about Ayaan Hirsi Ali, she fascinates. The
Dutch-Somali politician, who has lived under armed guard ever since a
fatwa was issued against her in 2004, is a chameleon of a woman. Just
11 years after she arrived in the Netherlands from Africa, she rode
into parliament on a wave of anti-immigrant sentiment, only to leave
again last year, this time for America, after an uproar over lies she
had told to obtain asylum.
Even the title of her new autobiography reflects her talent for
reinvention. In the Netherlands, where Ms Hirsi Ali got her start
campaigning against the oppression of Muslim women, the book has been
published under the title "My Freedom". But in Britain and in America,
where she now has a fellowship at the conservative American Enterprise
Institute, it is called "Infidel". In it, she recounts how she and her
family made the cultural odyssey from nomadic to urban life in Africa
and how she eventually made the jump to Europe and international
celebrity as the world's most famous critic of Islam.
Read as a modern coming-of-age story set in Africa, the book has a
certain charm. Read as a key to the thinking of a woman who aspires to
be the Muslim Voltaire, it is more problematic. The facts as Ms Hirsi
Ali tells them here do not fit well either with some of the stories
she has told in the past or with her tendency in her political writing
to ascribe most of the troubles of the Muslim world to Islam.
Ms Hirsi Ali's father, Hirsi Magan Isse, was one of the first Somalis
to study overseas in Italy and America. He met his future wife, Asha,
when she signed up for a literacy class he taught during Somalia's
springtime of independence in the 1960s. The family's troubles began
in 1969, the year Ms Hirsi Ali was born. That was also the year that
Mohammed Siad Barre, a Somali army commander, seized power in a
military coup. Hirsi Magan was descended from the traditional rulers
of the Darod, Somalia's second biggest clan. Siad Barre, who hailed
from a lesser Darod family, feared and resented Ms Hirsi Ali's
father's family, she says. In 1972, Siad Barre had Hirsi Magan put in
prison from which he escaped three years later and fled the country.
Not until 1978 was the family reunited with him.
As a young woman, Ms Hirsi Ali's mother, Asha, does not seem to have
inhabited "the virgin's cage" that the author claims imprisons Muslim
women around the world. At the age of 15, she travelled by herself to
Aden where she got a job cleaning house for a British woman. Despite
her adventurous spirit, in Yemen and later in the Gulf she found
herself drawn to the stern Wahhabi version of Islam that would later
clash with the more relaxed interpretation of Islam favoured by Ms
Hirsi Ali's father and many other Somalis. She and Hirsi Magan fell
out not long after the family moved to Kenya in 1980. Hirsi Magan left
to join a group of Somali opposition politicians in exile in Ethiopia
and did not return to his family for ten years.
Ms Hirsi Ali says her mother had no idea how to raise her children in
a foreign city. She frequently beat Ayaan and her sister, Haweya.
Although they and their brother, Mahad, attended some of Nairobi's
best schools, Haweya and Mahad dropped out early on. Ms Hirsi Ali
herself meanwhile fell under the sway of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Some of the best passages in the book concern this part of her life.
As a teenager, Ms Hirsi Ali chose to wear the all-encompassing black
Arab veil, which was unusual in cosmopolitan Nairobi. "Weirdly, it
made me feel like an individual. It sent out a message of
superiority," she writes. Even as she wore it, Ms Hirsi Ali was drawn
in other directions. She read English novels and flirted with a boy.
Young immigrants of any religion growing up with traditional parents
in a modern society will recognise her confusion: "I was living on
several levels in my brain. There was kissing Kennedy; there was clan
honour; and there was Sister Aziza and God."
Ms Hirsi Ali sounds less frank when she tells the convoluted story of
how and why she came to seek asylum at the age of 22 in the
Netherlands. She has admitted in the past to changing her name and her
age, and to concocting a story for the Dutch authorities about running
away from Somalia's civil war. (In fact she left from Kenya, where she
had had refugee status for ten years.) She has since justified those
lies by saying that she feared another kind of persecution: the
vengeance of her clan after she ran away from an arranged marriage.
However, last May a Dutch television documentary suggested that while
Ms Hirsi Ali did run away from a marriage, her life was in no danger.
The subsequent uproar nearly cost Ms Hirsi Ali her Dutch citizenship,
which may be the reason why she is careful here to re-state how much
she feared her family when she first arrived in the Netherlands. But
the facts as she tells them about the many chances she passed up to
get out of the marriagehow her father and his clan disapproved of
violence against women; how relatives already in the Netherlands
helped her to gain asylum; and how her ex-husband peaceably agreed to
a divorcehardly seem to bear her out.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is not the first person to use false pretences to try
to find a better life in the West, nor will she be the last. But the
muddy account given in this book of her so-called forced marriage
becomes more troubling when one considers that Ms Hirsi Ali has built
a career out of portraying herself as the lifelong victim of fanatical
Muslims.
Another, even more disturbing story concerns her sister Haweya's
sojourn in the Netherlands. In her earlier book, "The Caged Virgin",
which came out last year, Ms Hirsi Ali wrote that her sister came to
the Netherlands to avoid being "married off". In "Infidel", however,
she says Haweya came to recover from an illicit affair with a married
man that ended in abortion. Ms Hirsi Ali helped Haweya make up another
fabricated story that gained her refugee status, but the Netherlands
offered her little respite. After another affair and a further
abortion, Haweya was put into a psychiatric hospital. Back in Nairobi,
she died from a miscarriage brought on by an episode of religious
frenzy. "It was the worst news of my life," Ms Hirsi Ali writes.
Mental illness, abortion, failed marriages, illicit affairs and
differing interpretations of religion: much as she tries, the kind of
problems that Ms Hirsi Ali describes in "Infidel" are all too human to
be blamed entirely on Islam. Her book shows that her life, like those
of other Muslims, is more complex than many people in the West may
have realised. But the West's tendency to seek simplistic explanations
is a weakness that Ms Hirsi Ali also shows she has been happy to
exploit.
http://economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_RGGPNPT
IF you have access to it through an institution then check it out. If you do not. I posted some excerps from it. However this does not excuse the Imam's words posted above. While it is true that historically the punishment for apostasy was death theoretically. In actual practices the carrying out of the law varied depending on whether the apostasy was politically motivated for not, whether the apostate was a convert or not etc.. In modern times many scholars have emphasized right to free ethical inquiry rooted in Quran and that changing circumstances requires certain aspects of the law to change.
http://www.economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8663231
Dark secrets
Feb 8th 2007
From The Economist print edition
Ayaan Hirsi Ali blames Islam for the miseries of the Muslim world. Her
new autobiography shows that life is too complex for that
Eyevine
SAY what you will about Ayaan Hirsi Ali, she fascinates. The
Dutch-Somali politician, who has lived under armed guard ever since a
fatwa was issued against her in 2004, is a chameleon of a woman. Just
11 years after she arrived in the Netherlands from Africa, she rode
into parliament on a wave of anti-immigrant sentiment, only to leave
again last year, this time for America, after an uproar over lies she
had told to obtain asylum.
Even the title of her new autobiography reflects her talent for
reinvention. In the Netherlands, where Ms Hirsi Ali got her start
campaigning against the oppression of Muslim women, the book has been
published under the title "My Freedom". But in Britain and in America,
where she now has a fellowship at the conservative American Enterprise
Institute, it is called "Infidel". In it, she recounts how she and her
family made the cultural odyssey from nomadic to urban life in Africa
and how she eventually made the jump to Europe and international
celebrity as the world's most famous critic of Islam.
Read as a modern coming-of-age story set in Africa, the book has a
certain charm. Read as a key to the thinking of a woman who aspires to
be the Muslim Voltaire, it is more problematic. The facts as Ms Hirsi
Ali tells them here do not fit well either with some of the stories
she has told in the past or with her tendency in her political writing
to ascribe most of the troubles of the Muslim world to Islam.
Ms Hirsi Ali's father, Hirsi Magan Isse, was one of the first Somalis
to study overseas in Italy and America. He met his future wife, Asha,
when she signed up for a literacy class he taught during Somalia's
springtime of independence in the 1960s. The family's troubles began
in 1969, the year Ms Hirsi Ali was born. That was also the year that
Mohammed Siad Barre, a Somali army commander, seized power in a
military coup. Hirsi Magan was descended from the traditional rulers
of the Darod, Somalia's second biggest clan. Siad Barre, who hailed
from a lesser Darod family, feared and resented Ms Hirsi Ali's
father's family, she says. In 1972, Siad Barre had Hirsi Magan put in
prison from which he escaped three years later and fled the country.
Not until 1978 was the family reunited with him.
As a young woman, Ms Hirsi Ali's mother, Asha, does not seem to have
inhabited "the virgin's cage" that the author claims imprisons Muslim
women around the world. At the age of 15, she travelled by herself to
Aden where she got a job cleaning house for a British woman. Despite
her adventurous spirit, in Yemen and later in the Gulf she found
herself drawn to the stern Wahhabi version of Islam that would later
clash with the more relaxed interpretation of Islam favoured by Ms
Hirsi Ali's father and many other Somalis. She and Hirsi Magan fell
out not long after the family moved to Kenya in 1980. Hirsi Magan left
to join a group of Somali opposition politicians in exile in Ethiopia
and did not return to his family for ten years.
Ms Hirsi Ali says her mother had no idea how to raise her children in
a foreign city. She frequently beat Ayaan and her sister, Haweya.
Although they and their brother, Mahad, attended some of Nairobi's
best schools, Haweya and Mahad dropped out early on. Ms Hirsi Ali
herself meanwhile fell under the sway of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Some of the best passages in the book concern this part of her life.
As a teenager, Ms Hirsi Ali chose to wear the all-encompassing black
Arab veil, which was unusual in cosmopolitan Nairobi. "Weirdly, it
made me feel like an individual. It sent out a message of
superiority," she writes. Even as she wore it, Ms Hirsi Ali was drawn
in other directions. She read English novels and flirted with a boy.
Young immigrants of any religion growing up with traditional parents
in a modern society will recognise her confusion: "I was living on
several levels in my brain. There was kissing Kennedy; there was clan
honour; and there was Sister Aziza and God."
Ms Hirsi Ali sounds less frank when she tells the convoluted story of
how and why she came to seek asylum at the age of 22 in the
Netherlands. She has admitted in the past to changing her name and her
age, and to concocting a story for the Dutch authorities about running
away from Somalia's civil war. (In fact she left from Kenya, where she
had had refugee status for ten years.) She has since justified those
lies by saying that she feared another kind of persecution: the
vengeance of her clan after she ran away from an arranged marriage.
However, last May a Dutch television documentary suggested that while
Ms Hirsi Ali did run away from a marriage, her life was in no danger.
The subsequent uproar nearly cost Ms Hirsi Ali her Dutch citizenship,
which may be the reason why she is careful here to re-state how much
she feared her family when she first arrived in the Netherlands. But
the facts as she tells them about the many chances she passed up to
get out of the marriagehow her father and his clan disapproved of
violence against women; how relatives already in the Netherlands
helped her to gain asylum; and how her ex-husband peaceably agreed to
a divorcehardly seem to bear her out.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is not the first person to use false pretences to try
to find a better life in the West, nor will she be the last. But the
muddy account given in this book of her so-called forced marriage
becomes more troubling when one considers that Ms Hirsi Ali has built
a career out of portraying herself as the lifelong victim of fanatical
Muslims.
Another, even more disturbing story concerns her sister Haweya's
sojourn in the Netherlands. In her earlier book, "The Caged Virgin",
which came out last year, Ms Hirsi Ali wrote that her sister came to
the Netherlands to avoid being "married off". In "Infidel", however,
she says Haweya came to recover from an illicit affair with a married
man that ended in abortion. Ms Hirsi Ali helped Haweya make up another
fabricated story that gained her refugee status, but the Netherlands
offered her little respite. After another affair and a further
abortion, Haweya was put into a psychiatric hospital. Back in Nairobi,
she died from a miscarriage brought on by an episode of religious
frenzy. "It was the worst news of my life," Ms Hirsi Ali writes.
Mental illness, abortion, failed marriages, illicit affairs and
differing interpretations of religion: much as she tries, the kind of
problems that Ms Hirsi Ali describes in "Infidel" are all too human to
be blamed entirely on Islam. Her book shows that her life, like those
of other Muslims, is more complex than many people in the West may
have realised. But the West's tendency to seek simplistic explanations
is a weakness that Ms Hirsi Ali also shows she has been happy to
exploit.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
I still want to see submission, that's the one that Theo van Gogh took a knife in the back from a holy warrior right?
It's pretty sad this girl gets death threats for using her freedom of speech all the time really.
It's pretty sad this girl gets death threats for using her freedom of speech all the time really.
PhlegmMaster
Banned
From the Quran (not any hadith):
4:88 What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O Muhammad) canst not find a road.
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
4:88 What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O Muhammad) canst not find a road.
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
PhlegmMaster said:
You realize you're just picking out certain verses just to make the quran look bad? It's idiots like you why there's hatred against muslims in the west.
How do you explain the verse right after that?
4:90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
You can't take one verse and derive a meaning from that. Looking at the second verse it's obvious the Quran is telling the muslims to fight non muslims who are trying to convert them by force.
PhlegmMaster
Banned
GSG Flash said:
No, Muslims are why there's hatred against Muslims in the west.
What is there to explain? Kill apostates and unbelievers, except those who join a group allied to Muslims or who come to Muslims, promising not to fight them. That you see that as redeeming the previous verses is perverse, to say the least. It reminds me of Muslims who say that the Quran's stance on slavery is OK, because it tells slavers to be kind to their slaves.
It's obvious, is it? What makes you think it's about "non muslims who are trying to convert them by force"?
Once you're done rationalizing that, you can try "explaining" these verses:
9:28 O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
9:32 Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.
9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.
9:34 O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,
9:35 On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard.
Stoney Mason
Banned
All these posts and no posts of the attractive Mrs Hirsi Ali
And of course calling for someone's death because they attack your religion is insane.
And of course calling for someone's death because they attack your religion is insane.
PhlegmMaster said:
If the other party comes in peace, regardless of what their beliefs, then Muslims are not to fight them. Is that not clear? Why make peace with someone hostile to you?
If your implying that the 'fighting' is referring to physical violence, your mistaken. You have to take it into context of the whole Quran and what it says about struggling for God and treating non-Muslims. What your doing by taking single quotes and pretending that these are to be taken as literal meanings is no difference from these Imams.
PhlegmMaster
Banned
RiZ III said:
What I'm "implying" is that 'killing' is referring to, you know, killing.
Taking it into context of the whole Quran is difficult, since the Quran is full of contradictions.
And of course these Imams are reading the Quran literally. They think it's the perfect word of the creator of the universe, and it's hard to blame them, since the Quran itself says that it's perfect and unambiguous.
PhlegmMaster said:
Oh yeah, because I sure am hurting people by being muslim...
Exactly, what's so wrong about that? So you're saying that it is wrong to tell muslims to fight back unbelievers if they fight the muslims? Nowhere does it say muslims should initiate the attack.
And yes the Quran's stance on slavery is that it's OK, you can't really single out Islam on that because the Bible endorses slavery. Please try again
First, you are again choosing verses, you can't just attack the Quran verse by verse because most verses are a continuation of verses that precede it.
Read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya#Qur.27an
And for the record, most of those verses are talking about religious leaders from the other religions of the book putting themselves above god and how they will pay for it once judgement day comes.
Seriously, what the **** is your problem? Why exactly do you have this much hatred for Islam?
What you posted can be grounds for banning IMO (not that I'm endorsing it), because it's not valid criticism of the quran and it's inciting hatred since you are just choosing the verses which fit your agenda.
Cyan said:
I can't argue with that because it's the truth, but you have to admit that phlegm is choosing certain verses that tell part of the story to make Islam and muslims look bad.
Calm down GSG, you can't expect to make any kind of grounds by talking to people with a such rough tongue. If there is a misunderstanding on Phelgs part, which there appears to be, then there is no reason to be so harsh. Even if he is simply trying to attack the Quran, then all you can do is refute it with the truth. Getting all angry like this on a public message board is certainly not going to help your case or the case of any Muslim.
PhlegmMaster said:
Yea but as both GSG and I already pointed out, that verse is talking about killing hostile apostates/nonbelievers. Taking into account the whole context of the Quran is not very difficult, you simply have to look at other verses and stories in there which deal with the same or similar issue. The Quran is not very long and it certainly is not hard doing a simple ctrl+f on a word document. I'm not sure what contradictions you are referring to.
RiZ III said:
Until those people decide to do some research on what they're trying to attack and not telling only part of the story, that's how I will respond to them.
I still want to know what Islam has done to phlegm and why he hates it enough to attack it on invalid grounds. I can understand hating radical muslims, like the cleric in the op, since they are the ones causing problems (for both muslims and non muslims) but they are driven by political ideologies, not religious ones (despite taking actions "in the name of god") and that would be obvious if he actually read the whole Quran and not just the verses which only tell half the story.
GSG Flash said:
'Islam' has caused a lot shit recently. I'm not going to defend 'Islam' here because there is no single definition or set of beliefs that come with people claiming to be adherents to that religion. Every hadith, no matter how strong/weak or outrageous, is a part of Islam. The Shariah is part of Islam. It isn't surprising that people like Phelgs exist because the 'Islamacists' really have done a lot of crap, and they are backed up by the Hadith, and Shariah. I'm just going to defend the Quran here though, because all Muslims have the same Quran and Phelgs interpretation and understanding is clearly misguided.
Stoney Mason
Banned
GSG Flash said:
Not really defending or attacking anybody since I'm an atheist. I think all religions are equal in my initial conception of them since I think they are all just different stories telling the same principle.
That being said, to the casual person I understood the greater fear of Islam right now because that religion is the one that seems like the fundamentalists have a greater control of. It seems to be the one where religion plays a greater role and has less separation between state and church. It seems to be less "reformed" than some of the other religions. Of course that may be a biased western view but just explaining why some people don't look on Islam currently as a civilizing force. The other religions aren't exempt from causing evils in the world (and I could write a long post on that and religion in general) but when most people see or hear extreme Rhetoric nowadays, they are not surprised to see Muslims speaking it. That doesn't condemn the religion of course, but at a certain point if enough people who wear black hats say and do crazy things, then people are going to generally start fearing people who wear black hats even though the black hat itself on the surface is not the cause of the violence.
PhlegmMaster
Banned
GSG Flash said:
There are plenty of nazis that never hurt a fly. That doesn't change the fact that nazism, as an ideology, is a bad influence on people. The same is true for Islam.
Nowhere in that verse, or in the few verses before and after it, does it say that only believers who use violence against Muslims should be killed. If interpreted generously, the verse could be taken to mean that only unbelievers who hate Islam should be killed. Now who does that remind me of? Oh yeah, that atheist slut, Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them,
I can single out the Bible and the Quran. Both are barbaric, oppressive texts. What makes the Bible slightly better is that it's easier to ignore the bad parts because they're mostly in the old testament and because nowhere in the Bible is it specified that it's meant to be perfect and unchanging.
I've quoted 8 verses in a row precisely to avoid that accusation. If you think I should have included more, go ahead and show me how the verses that precede them change their obvious meaning. I don't think you can.
You people really are blind when it comes to your own scripture.
9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
Now, how much do you think verses like these favor religious tolerance and freedom of belief?
Because, at this moment, Islam is the one religion that people are afraid to criticize because they might very well be killed for it.
Because Islam nurtures the ideology of martyrdom.
Because Islam preserves barbaric and oppressive beliefs that belong in the 6th century, not the 21st.
Because Islam, like Christianity, includes and promotes the pseudo-science of creationism.
Because Muslims, more so than any other religious believers, constantly take advantage of Western tolerance and multi-culturalism to get special privileges and refuse to assimilate.
Because Muslim moderates are even worse than Christian moderates when it comes to shielding their fundamentalist counterparts from the ridicule they deserve.
Because Islam discourages freedom of speech, freedom of belief, and intellectual inquiry by encouraging faith and blind acceptance of tradition.
What I have done is copy/paste directly from the Quran some of the verses that inspire Muslims to do what the Imam in the OP has done.
Your holy scripture does that quite well on its own.
Maybe if I have ****ing time after my exams I will respond to your words. The fact that you're comparing Islam to nazis is makes your words mean that much less to me. I don't really care what you think of muslims and Islam, I'm gonna keep being a muslim and believing in my religion, you can continue being a bigot.
Frankly that idiot of a cleric is a perfect opposition to people like you.
Frankly that idiot of a cleric is a perfect opposition to people like you.
According to the author of the Quran, God isn't very pleased with anyone besides God being taken as the true God and so the Christian ideology is referred to as perverse according to God. Does it tell people to attack anyone for simply believing that? No, there is no compulsion as it states. Homosexuality is considered perverse and so Sodom is destroyed by God in the Quran. Did it ask humans to mistreat homosexuals or kill them? No. Rather it says to humans, 'do not let your hatred for a people make you act unjust.' So are gays looked favorably by the Quran? No. Are they to be discriminated or killed? NO. Same goes with Christians, atheists, apostates. There is to be no human injustice. God says he dislikes certain groups of people, but that is God's issue with them, not our issue with them. You have to realize this, but you would only realize that if you read the text or perhaps if you stopped your ignorant hatred towards the Quran.
PhlegmMaster
Banned
GSG Flash said:
I see you're as liberal in your interpretation of my words as you are in your interpretation of the Quran. I obviously meant that even for the worst ideology, there will be perfectly harmless followers of it. That doesn't mean the ideology itself is harmless.
The difference is that the cleric is calling for the death of someone who attacks his religion, whereas I'm posting quotes from the cleric's holy scripture that shows that his actions are at least partly caused by this scripture. Being intolerant of bigotry isn't bigotry, it's common sense.
RiZ III said:
First, that's simply false.
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them,
9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
Second, even if you were right, the fact remains that the Quran teaches that the Omnipotent Creator of the Universe, the Mighty Allah, hates Christians, Jews, unbelievers, apostates, homosexuals, condones slavery and gender unequality, looks favorably upon martyrs who die for Him, and various other things. What influence do you think this has upon the minds of Muslims who believe that the Quran is the perfect word of God?
I'm not going to bother talking about those 2 verses again as I've already done so several times in this thread already.
Yes, the God of the Quran states explicitly that he does not like those groups you just mentioned and He will deal with them Himself. We humans aren't asked to attack anyone for their beliefs or force anyone to convert unless we are attacked first. God is the one who says he provides for everyone and everything, he blesses whoever He wants and elevates some over others, regardless of their beliefs or behaviors. So even if He is angry at them, it is the same God who is providing people with the sustainance. The talk of punishment usually refers to the final Judgement. He punishes people in this life and the next if He wills or perhaps saves it for the afterlife. Either way, the punishment is for God to give.
This shouldn't have any influence on the minds of thinking person who has read the whole text and not some tool being brainwashed by someone similar to yourself who goes around quoting verses without explaining the message. So let me explain to you the message, as a Muslim, you live by God's laws, you are always aware of God, you feed the hungry, respect the orphans, take care of the widows, honor your parents, believe in the final Judgement, and don't take anything or anyone as god besides God. Life is hard, the world is full of corrupt men who cause trouble in all sorts of ways (political, physical, theological, so on), so you struggle for straight path of God and fight off the evils of this world. Fighting against your own unlawful desires(lust, cheating, cruelty.. so on) and those around you who wish for you to follow them in their ways. Fighting yourself doesn't mean to physically punch yourself, or anyone else. It is a struggle. That is the message you get when you read the Quran as a whole. I can't change the way God feels about other people, and if he is angry, then he is angry, but he is also forgives and provides for everyone and everything.
Yes, the God of the Quran states explicitly that he does not like those groups you just mentioned and He will deal with them Himself. We humans aren't asked to attack anyone for their beliefs or force anyone to convert unless we are attacked first. God is the one who says he provides for everyone and everything, he blesses whoever He wants and elevates some over others, regardless of their beliefs or behaviors. So even if He is angry at them, it is the same God who is providing people with the sustainance. The talk of punishment usually refers to the final Judgement. He punishes people in this life and the next if He wills or perhaps saves it for the afterlife. Either way, the punishment is for God to give.
This shouldn't have any influence on the minds of thinking person who has read the whole text and not some tool being brainwashed by someone similar to yourself who goes around quoting verses without explaining the message. So let me explain to you the message, as a Muslim, you live by God's laws, you are always aware of God, you feed the hungry, respect the orphans, take care of the widows, honor your parents, believe in the final Judgement, and don't take anything or anyone as god besides God. Life is hard, the world is full of corrupt men who cause trouble in all sorts of ways (political, physical, theological, so on), so you struggle for straight path of God and fight off the evils of this world. Fighting against your own unlawful desires(lust, cheating, cruelty.. so on) and those around you who wish for you to follow them in their ways. Fighting yourself doesn't mean to physically punch yourself, or anyone else. It is a struggle. That is the message you get when you read the Quran as a whole. I can't change the way God feels about other people, and if he is angry, then he is angry, but he is also forgives and provides for everyone and everything.
A brief nitpick: 2 Timothy does say that "all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching" blah blah blah.PhlegmMaster said:
The stuff in the Old Testament is easier to ignore because Christians tend to live in more progressive cultures. Hardly any American Christian outside the Fred Phelps compound would claim that homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned to death, even though it's right there in black and white in Leviticus. Sure, there are token efforts to justify leaving out the really obnoxious laws by jumping through theological hoops ("Jesus was the fulfillment of the laws! Except for these ones which still seem good!"), but it's really because people realize that the Old Testament laws are repugnant and don't have any place in civilized society.
In the same vein, I'm sure that this ElBayly asshole's comments are outrageous to plenty of Muslims in progressive cultures. Of course, his opinion would be par for the course in Afghanistan... just ask Abdul Rahman.
GSG Flash funny how you point how some users are cherry picking islam, yet make no mention of how Islamic leaders do the same to do inhuman acts. Don't get me wrong the religon in it's correct context is peaceful, how it currently is now is nothing more than wicked distortion of what it's really there for.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Don't worry about what's in the Quran. A culture can become liberalized despite anything that's in their holy book. They'll just look at it as allegory after awhile. It worked for the Old Testament.
PhlegmMaster
Banned
RiZ III said:
You've never addressed 9:29. I copy/pasted it and all verses before and after it to put it into context. You can either tell me why fighting Christians and Jews until they pay a tribute doesn't mean fighting Christians and Jews until they pay a tribute, or you can admit that like all moderate religious believers, you choose to ignore the verses of your scripture that you dislike, i.e. cherry picking.
It hardly matters. In all three Abrahamic religions, the deity is seen as the source of all morality. An act, a belief, or a state of being that the deity hates is one that is wrong. When a Muslim or a Christian who doesn't cherry pick encounters a homosexual or an apostate, he sees that person as a wrong-doer. And what about gay Christians and Muslims? I feel nothing but pity for those poor bastards.
It's a shame that this message isn't clearly and concisely explained at the beginning of the Quran, eh? Imagine what Muslim civilization would be like if the Quran was limited to, "Be kind and generous to others, belief isn't important, altruism is. Allah wants His children to be tolerant and open-minded."
But it's not like that, it's a confused book full of nonsense and barbarism. And so when Muslims who haven't been influenced by secular morality, like the Imam in the OP, read that unbelievers who hate Islam should be killed wherever they may be found, and that the Quran is perfect and unambiguous, he concludes that the Quran means what it says.
I don't think that all, or even most Muslims are dangerous fanatics. But what pisses me off is the underserved respect people have for religion and Islam in particular, which is amplified by political correctness and the conviction that all religions are inherently good and anyone who does evil in a religion's name is acting against its commandments and influence. There are good verses in the Quran and the Bible, and they are responsible for quite a bit of good in the world. And there are hateful, violent, barbaric verses in the Quran and the Bible, and they are the cause of a good chunk of the suicide bombings, inter-religious violence, sexism, barbarism, and evil that Muslims and Christians are responsible for.
Ideologies shape and influence their followers' psyche, that's what ideologies do. Because all ideologies don't teach the same things, some ideologies tend to influence their followers in certain ways, other ideologies influence them in other ways. The average Buddhist won't react to criticism of his religion in the same way that the average Muslim will, for example. Whatever it may be, Islam isn't a religion of peace compared to many other religions, and neither does it allow for easy transitions and progress. People need to be made aware that Islam isn't what the moderates would have us think, and that fundamentalist Muslims are both more fanatic and numerous than Christian fundamentalists.
Hatorade said:
The opposite is true. Islam seen as being dictated by the Quran alone is somewhere between what fundies like the Imam and moderates like RiZ think it is, and Islam seen as including the dictates of the Hadith and the Sharia is much worse than that.
Stoney Mason
Banned
I read the Sam Harris novel End of faith and while he was anti-religion throughout he had particular disdain for Islam due to all the violence movements it currently inspires.
His most damning claim is that unlike other religions it is unlikely to reform.
It was a very interesting book and had many strong points and of course being an atheist I agreed with a lot of it. Especially the unspoken reality that religion has had and continues to have a lot of negatives effects on society and this planet.
Ultimately though I didn't buy into the argument that Islam is a magnitude worse than these other religions and unreformable. You look at people like Bin Laden and think well okay that is probably as bad it can get, and maybe I do think that, but the real war has to be with extremists and violence as a general notion whether it's Islam or anything else. I think not only is that the correct moral fight but in the end the only one that actually has a chance as religion isn't likely to disappear off this planet tomorrow.
Arguing who can pull the most evil quotes out of who's holy text is a fun game I suppose but ultimately pointless because ultimately religion is in the heart of people and how they relate and not solely tied to a religious book (despite what even the religious people of each faith will say themselves)
His most damning claim is that unlike other religions it is unlikely to reform.
It was a very interesting book and had many strong points and of course being an atheist I agreed with a lot of it. Especially the unspoken reality that religion has had and continues to have a lot of negatives effects on society and this planet.
Ultimately though I didn't buy into the argument that Islam is a magnitude worse than these other religions and unreformable. You look at people like Bin Laden and think well okay that is probably as bad it can get, and maybe I do think that, but the real war has to be with extremists and violence as a general notion whether it's Islam or anything else. I think not only is that the correct moral fight but in the end the only one that actually has a chance as religion isn't likely to disappear off this planet tomorrow.
Arguing who can pull the most evil quotes out of who's holy text is a fun game I suppose but ultimately pointless because ultimately religion is in the heart of people and how they relate and not solely tied to a religious book (despite what even the religious people of each faith will say themselves)
PhlegmMaster
Banned
impirius said:
Good to know, thanks!
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
castle007 said:
I think it's more accurate to say that he's an Islam hater. But what's wrong with disliking an ideology, exactly?
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