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[Zapages]

what they should do for used games instead going against the consumer... They should target Gamestop/Best buy/etc.

Instead of Gamestop coming up with a price for used games. Microsoft and Sony should come up with a price and have it be controlled through this means. This way the consumer still gets to trade the game in, the developer gets a piece of the pie, the publisher gets a piece of the pie, Microsoft/Sony does too, and same with Gamestop.... The price would not be as good as before, but it will be fair for the consumer.

 

[obonicus]

That's because it is black and white. Used games are not the real issue and just another scapegoat.

Used games by themselves aren't really an issue, but the very idea of 'used' when it comes to digital content is right up there with scarcity, it's skeuomorphism of concepts (is there a better name?).

You should blame the guys hiring the shills - their decision has caused this situation.

There have always been shills. There have also been terrible fanboys who shill for free. What you do is you ignore them, you skip over their posts and roll your eyes. It's going to blow over, but right now people are freaking out a little, and we really should think twice before pointing fingers. The admins know who the suspected viral marketers are; they're the ones who brought this to our attention. They'll handle it. It's not like some dude being all positive and effusive about the Xbox One policies, whether paid shill or volunteer shill is going to change anyone's mind.

The point is, though, that E3 is always a barely-controlled trainwreck, and this E3 is starting off on a particularly poor foot. It's because of MS' being extra shitty, yeah, but we don't have to go so crazy.

 

[i-Lo]

This is correct. No word on a downclock.

Still a rumor, but the fact that even Gies has reported this makes it increasingly likely.

Thanks.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I wonder if the recent clock downgrade is the secret sauce that Arthur was talking about?

Actually, Arthur saying he's heard murmurs of a clock downgrade may be good news because the opposite is more likely true now...

 

[ascii42]

Well, in the case of Halo, I'd chalk that to local multiplayer.

Yeah, when I was in college, only one of my roommates bought Halo 3, but 3 of us had XBL accounts we used to play it.

 

[artist]

I wonder if the recent clock downgrade is the secret sauce that Arthur was talking about?

Actually, Arthur saying he's heard murmurs of a clock downgrade may be good news because the opposite is more likely true now...

I was just browsing B3D and came across a few of Rangers' (GAF's specialguy) posts .. guy is talking about about a potential 30% clock increase of Xbone. Looks like Reiko is in good company at B3D.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

What? More like 100. (115.2 to be exact)

Oops. I didn't use durango I used a 7970 vs a ghz edition.

 

[Spongebob]

Oops. I didn't use durango I used a 7970 vs a ghz edition.

Even then you would still be wrong.

 

[Averon]

I wonder if the recent clock downgrade is the secret sauce that Arthur was talking about?

Actually, Arthur saying he's heard murmurs of a clock downgrade may be good news because the opposite is more likely true now...

Ah, the last few weeks has worked over Gies credibility quite good. I'm tempted to go back and re-read his secret sauce claims for the laughs.

 

[Fox_Mulder]

Ah, the last few weeks has worked over Gies credibility quite good. I'm tempted to go back and re-read his secret sauce claims for the laughs.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58378237&postcount=305

 

[artist]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58378237&postcount=305

10 bucks

 

[ShapeGSX]

Everyone's favorite Polygon employee said on Rebel FM this week that he has also heard the downclocking rumors from a source. According to him the reason was actually the longevity of the product. At the original projected clockspeed they were projecting an Xbox One would last for 3 years before the hardware fails, on average. Reducing the clock speed would supposedly increase that to 5 years.

That doesn't even make any sense from an engineering perspective. Hardware fails due to electromigration, or due to heat (which accelerates electromigration). But the yield affects neither.

If anything, the PS4's APU would have a harder time keeping cool than the XBox One's APU, since the PS4 will have more active parts (eSRAM should run relatively cool compared to more active parts of the chip).

 

[fallagin]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58378237&postcount=305

The most secret sauce of them all, one that does not exist.

 

[Valentus]

Stupid question: if the problem is the large chunk of eSRAM, MS can reduce ir from 32mb to 16?, that would solve anything?

 

[fallagin]

Stupid question: if the problem is the large chunk of eSRAM, MS can reduce ir from 32mb to 16?, that would solve anything?

That would probably be impossible at this point to be honest. It's not in a single pool if I remember correctly, it is distributed throughout the gpu.

 

[Mindlog]

I'm incredibly bummed at the perspective of losing my XBL friends list =(

The biggest overlooked factor in this whole mess. I will give up my xbox friend list since it was originally built to turn friends and family into gamers. Losing that list sucks, but so does Schbönne. However, I have doubts that a large portion of my friendlist is as willing to give up those connections.

I will also be giving up my PS3 friend list since a lack of backwards compatibility means it's just easier to keep a PS3 and start a new PS4 account. If I get a PS4 that is.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Easy.

If the chips coming of the line leaking electricity from their transistors at a projected speed then lowering the clocks may stop that happening.

A "leaky" chip will use more power, thus generate more heat than one that isn't "leaky."

Heat and power is the bane of electronics. The less of both in a device, the longer it lasts in general.

Lowering the clock speed doesn't affect transistor leakage. Not even a little bit.

 

[Painraze]

I will also be giving up my PS3 friend list since a lack of backwards compatibility means it's just easier to keep a PS3 and start a new PS4 account. If I get a PS4 that is.

How is it easier to start a new account? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[ReDelicious]

I will also be giving up my PS3 friend list since a lack of backwards compatibility means it's just easier to keep a PS3 and start a new PS4 account. If I get a PS4 that is.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean, you shouldn't lose your PS3 friend list I don't think. The Vita and PS3 are interconnected friend list wise so don't see why PS4 couldn't be as well.

 

[fallagin]

How is it easier to start a new account? That doesn't make any sense.

Well, if there are 'friends' you want to ditch on the new system then it can be very beneficial >

 

[Osiris]

Lowering the clock speed doesn't affect transistor leakage. Not even a little bit.

Yes it does.

Lowering the clock also allows you to lower the core voltage, which does reduce both heat and electromigration, allowing a greater yield.

 

[DBT85]

Well, if there are 'friends' you want to ditch on the new system then it can be very beneficial >

Meh just ditch em.

I am still weighing up whether to start a new account so that my username is something closer to what I want.

My issue is PS+ and the 2+ years worth of goodies. So many games racked up.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Meh just ditch em.

I am still weighing up whether to start a new account so that my username is something closer to what I want.

My issue is PS+ and the 2+ years worth of goodies. So many games racked up.

You can associate your PSN ID with a Facebook account on PS4 and just start using your real name.

 

[Rolf NB]

That doesn't even make any sense from an engineering perspective. Hardware fails due to electromigration, or due to heat (which accelerates electromigration). But the yield affects neither.

If anything, the PS4's APU would have a harder time keeping cool than the XBox One's APU, since the PS4 will have more active parts (eSRAM should run relatively cool compared to more active parts of the chip).

I think it does make sense. This isn't about functional chip yield. Of course, reducing the clock won't make a manufacturing defect go away. But as you said, heat accelerates electromigration. Increased voltage does the same. Reducing the clocks at the same voltage already reduces heat dissipation, but also allows stable operation at lowered voltage (which leads to a further reduction in power).
So yes, a chip running at a lowered voltage at lowered clocks should have a longer life expectancy.

I just find it silly that this gets spun as some sort of engineering master plan. It's a sign of rushed design if anything.

 

[fallagin]

Meh just ditch em.

I'm too much of a wimp for that shit bro. Nice try though.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Used games by themselves aren't really an issue, but the very idea of 'used' when it comes to digital content is right up there with scarcity, it's skeuomorphism of concepts (is there a better name?)

So an used Thriller vinyl is ok but an used Thriller CD is not by virtue of having the content stored in bits instead of grooves?

I don't buy it.

 

[Risette]

So an used Thriller vinyl is ok but an used Thriller CD is not by virtue of having the content stored in bits instead of grooves?

I don't buy it.

CDs have pits!

 

[DBT85]

You can associate your PSN ID with a Facebook account on PS4 and just start using your real name.

Meh, while that's ok I'd prefer to be able to use an alias, like DBT85. So for me to log in, or for people to ad me, they have to use my SirTodge PSN ID, but when it displays on leaderboards and in messages and stuff it showed up as DBT85. We shall see what occurs.

I'm too much of a wimp for that shit bro. Nice try though.

Why? Who would get pissed if you started a new account? How would they know?

 

[Jake Tower]

Used games by themselves aren't really an issue, but the very idea of 'used' when it comes to digital content is right up there with scarcity, it's skeuomorphism of concepts (is there a better name?).

Try this one on: there is no such thing as intellectual property.

 

[JaseC]

flash ban
Banned
(Today, 08:15 AM)

Poetic.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Yes it does.

Lowering the clock also allows you to lower the core voltage, which does reduce both heat and electromigration, allowing a greater yield.

Lowering voltage would not help their yield. EM can be solved with good metal design practices and tools that check for current limits through vias, which are usually the choke point. There is no reason that any design should succumb to EM failure these days.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[DBT85]

Lowering voltage would not help their yield.

Why is this? Are not some chips able to run at higher ratings than others?

IE if you designed a chip to run at 1v and 1ghz and 90% turned out able to do that after fabrication, if you dropped the spec to 0.95v and 900mhz an extra 5% of chips might make the cut?

 

[ShapeGSX]

Why is this? Are not some chips able to run at higher ratings than others?

IE if you designed a chip to run at 1v and 1ghz and 90% turned out able to do that after fabrication, if you dropped the spec to 0.95v and 900mhz an extra 5% of chips might make the cut?

If they are having yield issues, the last thing they would want to do is to lower the voltage. it would only make their yield issues worse. Dropping the voltage makes circuit paths slower. If they are having issues with circuit paths being too slow, they won't drop the voltage. If anything, they would keep the voltage the same and drop the frequency.

Or they would fix the yield issue. There are ways to do this. Some take longer than others.

 

[DBT85]

If they are having yield issues, the last thing they would want to do is to lower the voltage. it would only make their yield issues worse. Dropping the voltage makes circuit paths slower. If they are having issues with circuit paths being too slow, they won't drop the voltage. If anything, they would keep the voltage the same and drop the frequency.

Or they would fix the yield issue. There are ways to do this. Some take longer than others.

Ahh, thanks for the clarification

 

[eastmen]

Why is this? Are not some chips able to run at higher ratings than others?

IE if you designed a chip to run at 1v and 1ghz and 90% turned out able to do that after fabrication, if you dropped the spec to 0.95v and 900mhz an extra 5% of chips might make the cut?

you got it backwards .

If your at 1v and 1ghz but need to increase yields you would either go to 1.1v /1ghz(if heat isn't a problem) or you would go to say 1v /950mhz or then 900mhz or even 1.1v and 950mhz if you need to increase yields a lot and power / heat isn't a problem.


For instance , I can overclock my bulldozer fx 150 to 4.2ghz at default voltage but to go to 4.3ghz I need to bump up the voltage. I instead choose to stay at 4.2ghz.


Now if you have a chip yielding 90% at 1v and 1ghz you could drop the voltage and see how many of them would stay at 1ghz and thus reduce the power usage / heat of your system . Or you could stay at 1v and try to go higher in clock speed and see what yields are at.

 

[hackdog]

Everyone's favorite Polygon employee said on Rebel FM this week that he has also heard the downclocking rumors from a source. According to him the reason was actually the longevity of the product. At the original projected clockspeed they were projecting an Xbox One would last for 3 years before the hardware fails, on average. Reducing the clock speed would supposedly increase that to 5 years.

3 years? 5 years? That's outstandingly bad for a consumer product for a living room. Did they put the Vista team in charge of this?

 

[DBT85]

you got it backwards .

If your at 1v and 1ghz but need to increase yields you would either go to 1.1v /1ghz(if heat isn't a problem) or you would go to say 1v /950mhz or then 900mhz or even 1.1v and 950mhz if you need to increase yields a lot and power / heat isn't a problem.


For instance , I can overclock my bulldozer fx 150 to 4.2ghz at default voltage but to go to 4.3ghz I need to bump up the voltage. I instead choose to stay at 4.2ghz.


Now if you have a chip yielding 90% at 1v and 1ghz you could drop the voltage and see how many of them would stay at 1ghz and thus reduce the power usage / heat of your system . Or you could stay at 1v and try to go higher in clock speed and see what yields are at.

Yeah not sure how I got that mixed up, been overclocking for years on and off, got my 2500k to 5ghz just long enough to run superpi lol.

 

[i-Lo]

I wonder what Lherre would've to say now about the ramifications of existing power gap between the two consoles and what it'd mean if the GPU was down clocked further. Of course given he won't be able to be candid on a publicly viewed forum, only mods and admins may end up with that knowledge.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

3 years? 5 years? That's outstandingly bad for a consumer product for a living room. Did they put the Vista team in charge of this?

Not to mention it would be a very strange reason to downclock a system (from a business standpoint). Make your system weaker overall to avoid something that won't bite you until your installed base is established.

 

[alexandros]

I am upset thinking about the implications of this for multi-platform games, does it mean that they'll target the lowest common denominator and the only games that will make the PS4 sing will be 1st party efforts?, does it mean that the scale of games will be reduced to accommodate for Xbox's tech specs?.

Yes and yes.

 

[idlewild_]

Not to mention it would be a very strange reason to downclock a system (from a business standpoint). Make your system weaker overall to avoid something that won't bite you until your installed base is established.

At the same time it could help avoid a RROD type deal again if it increases the avg life of a system significantly. Burning your early adopters two consoles in a row isn't really good business either.

 

[mrklaw]

Hear hear.

Xbox owner here.

I'm incredibly bummed at the perspective of losing my XBL friends list =(

Why? If those people migrate to PSN then just exchange details with them. I'm sure there will be threads on here for people going either way 'moving from XBL to PSN? Post your gamertags here!' That sort of thing

 

[Erasus]

At the same time it could help avoid a RROD type deal again if it increases the avg life of a system significantly. Burning your early adopters two consoles in a row isn't really good business either.

But RROD was bad soldering and rapid heatup and then rapid cooldown.

PC CPUs and GPUs might get a little less life after an overclock but I doubt its that much...

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

CDs have pits!

Oops you are right.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Why? If those people migrate to PSN then just exchange details with them. I'm sure there will be threads on here for people going either way 'moving from XBL to PSN? Post your gamertags here!' That sort of thing

...

 

[anexanhume]

But RROD was bad soldering and rapid heatup and then rapid cooldown.

PC CPUs and GPUs might get a little less life after an overclock but I doubt its that much...

Yup, you rarely hear of a discrete GPU failure that can't be fixed by a bake in the oven (solder reflow) that isn't power related. It's because these components are way over designed with margin to prevent issues related to transistor current.

 

[Foxyone]

With all this doom and gloom from the Xbox, is it reasonable to expect some doom and gloom to come from PS4 at some point?

 

[FlyingTeacup]

With all this doom and gloom from the Xbox, is it reasonable to expect some doom and gloom to come from PS4 at some point?

only if whatever the game ueda is still working on didn't show up.

 

[InfiniDragon]

I can't believe some people think it's just Sony fanboys that are making a big deal out of all of Xbox One's issues. Ugh.

Yeah there's a word for those people...delusional.

I own all consoles and a gaming PC, and I'm about the farthest thing you'll see from a Sony fanboy (nearly didn't buy a PS3 back in the day due to the initial screwups and arrogance), yet I'm with everyone else in berating this anti-consumer nonsense.

MS has fully, completely, 1000% brought that on themselves.

 

[aeolist]

I am upset thinking about the implications of this for multi-platform games, does it mean that they'll target the lowest common denominator and the only games that will make the PS4 sing will be 1st party efforts?, does it mean that the scale of games will be reduced to accommodate for Xbox's tech specs?.

it'll be pretty easy and cheap to add upgrades to PS4 games. expect generally better framerate and resolution, probably additions like higher quality AA and AF too.