Super Mario 3D World for Wii U

You kinda contradicted yourself there.

See? Nintendo is trying to take that gameplay formula that lead them not once but twice to the upper echelon of Metacritic scores last generation, the gameplay formula that revolutionized a genre and continues to impress core gamers to this day and change it to something that will blend 2D Mario's accessibility and familiarity with 3D Mario's depth of control and freedom of movement.

Why?

So that 3D Mario doesn't continue to be ignored by half of Nintendo's userbase despite its obvious qualities
I see it as more of an injection of much needed depth and creativity to the 2D formula that also serves as a way to make the more advanced 3D Mario games seem less foreign to the rest of the Mario userbase. It's much more like they're changing the 2D formula. You see multiplayer, a timer, a flagpole, powerups, going mini after hits, and think to yourself, "This is gonna replace 3D Mario" before you think "This is gonna replace 2D Mario"? Anyways you'd think after receiving 362 stars worth of awesome 3D Mario gameplay last generation alone would be proof enough that they still hold that gameplay formula dear to their hearts, and you'd also think it would make the wait for a new one a little less hard to bear..
 
So after the E3 reveal, I've been thinking a lot about this game.

And I'm still disappointed.

This game is such a letdown that many of those hoping for a console-defining, original experience are even refusing to believe this is the real 3D Mario. It's like they can't even believe it.

Unfortunately I can believe it. I only hope that Nintendo doesn't suck the life out of 3D Mario like they did to 2D Mario.

Nah I really think this reaction can be compared to the Wind Waker reveal reaction, I'm sure it will turn out great and unique.
 
I see it as more of an injection of much needed depth and creativity to the 2D formula that also serves as a way to make the more advanced 3D Mario games seem less foreign to the rest of the Mario userbase. It's much more like they're changing the 2D formula. You see multiplayer, a timer, a flagpole, and think to yourself, "This is gonna replace 3D Mario" before you think "This is gonna replace 2D Mario"? Anyways you'd think after receiving 362 stars worth of awesome 3D Mario gameplay last generation alone would be proof enough that they still hold that gameplay formula dear to their hearts, and you'd also think it would make the wait for a new one a little less hard to bear..

If that was the case shouldn't it be that NSMB team would be doing it instead of the EAD Tokyo aka 3D Mario team?

It is the 3D games that are getting the elements from the 2D games not otherwise. =)
 
If that was the case shouldn't it be that NSMB team would be doing it instead of the EAD Tokyo aka 3D Mario team?

It is the 3D games that are getting the elements from the 2D games not otherwise. =)
because the NSMB team has no experience at 3D level design while EAD Tokyo created three last generation alone perhaps? Which is why they're working on what is essentially a fusion of both formulas. I can sort of see where your coming from but I feel like it's clearly the 2D formula that are receiving elements of the 3D design and not the other way around. I mean shit how's that even arguable? The game has more similarities to 2D Mario than to 3D Mario, by a wide margin.
 
Seeing as how i thought SM3DL was the best mario since SM64, i am more than happy with this. Granted, I am not extremely excited as i just only recently finished 3DLand, but I will purchase this game at some point and i am sure i will enjoy it.
 
because the NSMB team has no experience at 3D level design while EAD Tokyo created three last generation alone perhaps

And it's clearly the 2D games that are receiving elements of the 3D design and not the other way around. I mean shit how's that even arguable? You'd think the things I already pointed out would be proof enough.

Huh? Let's just make a little excercise here:

SM64 -> Sunshine -> Galaxy -> Galaxy 2 -> 3D Land - > 3D World.

What these games have in common? They were all made by the same guys, the guys who are in charge of the 3D Mario games. And recently we saw the new iterations of these games receiving flag poles(2d game element), Time(2D game element) and why not losing the life bar to the older small -> Big mechanic( 2D element). All of those things were added in a 3D Mario game enviroment( Heck Galaxy 2 starts like a 2D game).

Now let's look at these:

NSMB DS -> NSMBWii -> NSMBU

What elements from 3D games were added in them? If your answer was None...BLING BLING BLING you are right.

Also, this:

"because the NSMB team has no experience at 3D level design"

They do, cause they've worked with other 3D games.

Actually they are the ones doing Pikmin 3.
 
I should have said 3D Mario level design and its obvious who has the experience there. At any rate I'll continue to emphasize the fact that Nintendo viewed 3D Land as a proof of concept for a new breed of Mario design that would satiate the needs and wants of 2D Mario players while introducing them to 3D Mario concepts of movement and not the other way around. Hence why I don't see it replacing 3D Mario epics, instead acting as a bridge to that sort of gameplay so that one day they might sell 20 million units as easily as New Super Mario Bros. does and more people come to appreciate the star collectors.
 
I'm excited about this game! I understand the disappointment and wish they make a different 3D Mario in the future, but 3D Land is a great game and this just looks so good!

At least we can agree that this is better than NSMB...
 
I've gone back and forth on this game over the last few days, and right now I'm feeling pretty down on it again.

My biggest problem with this is that it seems to be focused on multiplayer, and many of the GAFers who've tried it say that it feels dumbed down as a result. At least in the levels shown for E3.

The camera and the style are all okay with me. I could even learn to love those aspects probably. I'm willing to try a 3D mario that's designed to play even more like 2D mario. That could be interesting.

But I can't deal with a mainline mario that's only fully enjoyable when you have two or three other people to play with. That just sucks. If EAD has made major sacrifices in order to accommodate local multi, then I have no interest in this at all.

Mainline mario should always be a single player game first and foremost. Multiplay is something you add on after you've made sure it's awesome for one person.

Also, any multiplayer focused game in the modern era should absolutely have an online mode of some kind.

If they have made a 3D mario that's basically a party game, I'm hoping Miyamoto turns over the tea table and this gets delayed into next year for a full retooling.
 
I should have said 3D Mario level design and its obvious who has the experience there. At any rate I'll continue to emphasize the fact that Nintendo viewed 3D Land as a proof of concept for a new breed of Mario design that would satiate the needs and wants of 2D Mario players while introducing them to 3D Mario concepts of movement and not the other way around. Hence why I don't see it replacing 3D Mario epics, instead acting as a bridge to that sort of gameplay so that one day they might sell 20 million units as easily as New Super Mario Bros. does and more people come to appreciate the star collectors.

All I'm saying is that the 3D land breed is the new 3D Mario breed.

They wanted to bring the 2D Mario players to play 3D Mario games, they will not make a new line of games for it. They are changing the 3D Mario game experience itself, simplifying it, more linear structure and so on.

And that didn't start with 3D Land, actually 3D land is the game they thought they hitted it spot on. And that's why they are going this route with 3D World.

Go back to Galaxy 2 and play the begining of the game, where they start it as a 2D game and then little by little it becomes the 3D one, that is them trying to make the 2D player getting used to be in a 3D enviroments, 3D land does that in a more complex way, and I think 3D world will do as well.

Expecting another Mario game with the SM64 formula of collecting 120 stars and so on, is wishiful thinking right now, since there is nothing pointing to it.

Can it happen? SURE!!! Will it happen? Not so sure.
 
Lol, I don't think we're playing the same game here.

You're absolutely right. You're playing the game that is absolutely groundbreaking, that features innovative new graphics and a 3D world that's a blast to explore because there's nothing else like it. It doesn't matter that the game has control quirks, because the world is so magnificent that you can't put it down, and you'll learn every single nuance of Mario's movements so you can counter ever quirk and improvise on the fly. You're playing the game you've been playing for 15 years, so that every aspect is perfectly honed into your muscle memory.

New players? They're playing an old, ugly game with imprecise platforming and repetitive objectives, that's outdone in almost every respect by every 3D Mario since. The world isn't wonderful, it's mundane. Every ounce of magic is outdone by the pounds of it in Galaxy and 3D Land. The point of entry is no longer as a good game in itself, but as a cultural curio that's become an interesting metagame, based around the idea that we can break this game, using its own mechanics against it in an attempt to turn it into a high score.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that design, in fact, I think that's a fantastic way to achieve longevity out of your favorite games, and actually supplies the game with a lot of appeal. What I'm saying though, is that the mechanics are terrible if you haven't engrained them into muscle memory, that the control is stiff and awkward, that's it's more fun for what it stands for than for what it actually is.

To put one of my own favorite games on the spot, I love Super Mario Kart, but I have little doubt that a new player, no matter how skilled in all different genres, would think it's an absolute clunker compared to newer entries. Likewise, Goldeneye may seem perfect if you've played it every weekend for the years and years since release, but if you're picking it up for the first time, it's an absolute hot mess.
 
All I'm saying is that the 3D land breed is the new 3D Mario breed.

They wanted to bring the 2D Mario players to play 3D Mario games, they will not make a new line of games for it. They are changing the 3D Mario game experience itself, simplifying it, more linear structure and so on.

And that didn't start with 3D Land, actually 3D land is the game they thought they hitted it spot on. And that's why they are going this route with 3D World.

Go back to Galaxy 2 and play the begining of the game, where they start it as a 2D game and then little by little it becomes the 3D one, that is them trying to make the 2D player getting used to be in a 3D enviroments, 3D land does that in a more complex way, and I think 3D world will do as well.

Expecting another Mario game with the SM64 formula of collecting 120 stars and so on, is wishiful thinking right now, since there is nothing pointing to it.

Can it happen? SURE!!! Will it happen? Not so sure.
I don't see it as wishful thinking just because we have one console 3D Mario game in over a decade that isn't following in the same vein as the others (which in a similar vein isn't enough to point to the idea of not having another epic either). I think it's a given that we'll see another 3D epic mainly because it seems like Nintendo loves developing them even when they don't sell as well as the cash-ins. Hell, we got 2 last generation. There's no way they'd stop there as far as I can see.
 
I don't see it as wishful thinking just because we have one console 3D Mario game in over a decade that isn't following in the same vein as the others (which in a similar vein isn't enough to point to the idea of not having another epic either). I think it's a given that we'll see another 3D epic mainly because it seems like Nintendo loves developing them even when they don't sell as well as the cash-ins. Hell, we got 2 last generation. There's no way they'd stop there as far as I can see.

I never said we will not have, just saying it's chances are slim. And I pointed out why.

And also you are assuming 3D World is not that epic game, which so far is an inconclusive thing.
 
I think the lack of excitement for this game comes from bland levels/trailer.

I think once we see some killer levels, people will get really hyped.
 
1. Completly agree with you.


2. SM3DW is fresh, very fresh, let's look at the last Mario game released in a console and he is DAMN fresh.

All right he is not so fresh because he is look like SM3DLand, so what? Sunshine was pretty much SM64 on the beach, as Galaxy was SM64 on Space.

See it is kind reductive to say this because, yeah while is true there is more to it than just it, the formula may be the same but we have yet to see the rest of this story, and also it doesn't help that our first contact with this formula was on a handheld system where things are more simple.

Not at all! After SM64 the games slowly started getting more and more linear and slower. Super Mario 64 and Galaxy are extremely different titles. Nintendo has slowly been turning 3d Mario into Crash Bandicoot and with 3d land they finally accomplished it, which is not a bad thing (Crash 1-3 were great games!), but I preferred it when 3d Mario was a completely different experience from 2d Mario.

I think Nintendo could make everyone happy by keeping Mario on it's current route, as a 3d version of the 2d game, instead of a completely different experience, and introduce a new IP or bring back something like DK64 to satisfy the gamers that want a more open 3d world.

I see no reason why Nintendo would ever go back to making full open worlds like Mario 64 or Sunshine, they just don't sell as well as the simpler linear games. Those hoping for a new Mario 64 will be disappointed more and more with each new 3d Mario release.
 
I think the lack of excitement for this game comes from bland levels/trailer.

I think once we see some killer levels, people will get really hyped.

It was the same thing that happened with 3D Land, too.

First people thought it was bland, then they soon changed their tune after trying/playing/seeing more for themselves.
 
I think the lack of excitement for this game comes from bland levels/trailer.

I think once we see some killer levels, people will get really hyped.

I agree, also, I'm hoping they do the same thing 3d land did; have the first 8 worlds be fun/neat levels that everyone can enjoy, then have a second set of 8 worlds that is more challenging.
 
I think the lack of excitement for this game comes from bland levels/trailer.

I think once we see some killer levels, people will get really hyped.

I don't think this looks bland. This is the Mushroom Kingdom. The setting isn't space or a tropical island or paintings of various locations around the world.
 
I've gone back and forth on this game over the last few days, and right now I'm feeling pretty down on it again.

My biggest problem with this is that it seems to be focused on multiplayer, and many of the GAFers who've tried it say that it feels dumbed down as a result. At least in the levels shown for E3.
.

I'm not a huge fan of this game yet, but I am almost positive the initial impressions from NSMB Wii and U were similarly multiplayer focused, leaving to worries about the single player game mechanics. Those fears ended up being unfounded IMO.
 
Not at all! After SM64 the games slowly started getting more and more linear and slower. Super Mario 64 and Galaxy are extremely different titles. Nintendo has slowly been turning 3d Mario into Crash Bandicoot and with 3d land they finally accomplished it, which is not a bad thing (Crash 1-3 were great games!), but I preferred it when 3d Mario was a completely different experience from 2d Mario.

I think Nintendo could make everyone happy by keeping Mario on it's current route, as a 3d version of the 2d game, instead of a completely different experience, and introduce a new IP or bring back something like DK64 to satisfy the gamers that want a more open 3d world.

I see no reason why Nintendo would ever go back to making full open worlds like Mario 64 or Sunshine, they just don't sell as well as the simpler linear games. Those hoping for a new Mario 64 will be disappointed more and more with each new 3d Mario release.

Hey I agree with you!

What I was saying is that the mechanics are the same, but I even added that saying what I said, based on the mechanics(as many is doing with 3D World) is reductive.
 
I don't think this looks bland. This is the Mushroom Kingdom. The setting isn't space or a tropical island or paintings of various locations around the world.

Thats what boring about it. We been to the mushroom kingdom a billion times already.
 
I don't think this looks bland. This is the Mushroom Kingdom. The setting isn't space or a tropical island or paintings of various locations around the world.
Thats what boring about it. We been to the mushroom kingdom a billion times already.
Except this isn't really the Mushroom Kingdom, it's the groundless floaty cloudy sky world way above the Mushroom Kingdom... or in an alternate universe or something.

The real Mushroom Kingdom can be seen at the very start of SM64, SMG1, SMG2, almost all of the 2D platformer games, and the Mario Kart series.

There is a whole grounded world with Toad Towns, villages, cities, and meadows of grass, sand and ice rolling into the horizon, filled with distant race tracks, the Princess's many royal palaces and the castles of the 7 kings of SMB3.
 
Played this at e3! Gameplay was pretty fun, but the graphics were awful! It didn't help that it was right next to the beautiful Sonic Lost World!
 
I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm afraid this style isn't going to allow for anything as great as this: http://youtu.be/Lv67MhOHk8E?t=3m27s

I disagree. The art style is pretty much identical, just with slightly different lighting as it doesn't seem to have the overexposed light that's relatively common in Galaxy scenes due to it being in space.

Seriously, compare:

super-mario-galaxy-2-20090602012052378_640w.jpg
1283179-p2yw9apfbtyhjpb1ivhpvcongseogkdn.jpg
margal2-1.jpg


with

ss1.jpg
ss9.jpg
ss4.jpg
 
I disagree. The art style is pretty much identical, just with slightly different lighting as it doesn't seem to have the overexposed light that's relatively common in Galaxy scenes due to it being in space.

Seriously, compare:

super-mario-galaxy-2-20090602012052378_640w.jpg
1283179-p2yw9apfbtyhjpb1ivhpvcongseogkdn.jpg
margal2-1.jpg


with

ss1.jpg
ss9.jpg
ss4.jpg

Damn! I'll have to replay Galaxy 1 and 2 before 3D World launches :P
 
The thing is, and this is generally how things are with graphics, people have a more idealistic view of the graphics of games of yesteryear and when they compare it to newer games, the newer games aren't that big a jump.

Look at Wind Waker, yeah it looked great in the past, but now when you play it on the TVs of today, it's fuzzy as hell and nowhere near as crisp, yet people state there's "no difference" between the HD remake and the current one
 
I'm soooo happy I haven't played much SMG2, even though I 100%'d SMG.

Note to self, gotta buy cheap candles on the way home later (my sensor bar crapped out).
 
I disagree. The art style is pretty much identical, just with slightly different lighting as it doesn't seem to have the overexposed light that's relatively common in Galaxy scenes due to it being in space.

Seriously, compare:

ss4.jpg

Who is that sugar plum fairy looking thing in that last shot?

EDIT: Are the mouse enemies new? If they are, is it sad it took me days to figure out why there were mouse enemies in this game?

Also, is it just me, or are there no regular green koopas in any of the footage? I'm sure I'm wrong, but I can't find any.
 
Who is that sugar plum fairy looking thing in that last shot?

EDIT: Are the mouse enemies new? If they are, is it sad it took me days to figure out why there were mouse enemies in this game?

Also, is it just me, or are there no regular green koopas in any of the footage? I'm sure I'm wrong, but I can't find any.

There were mouse enemies in Super Mario Bros 2 USA, a game which this game seems to take a lot of inspiration for. The same playable characters, you can pick things up etc.
 
It has the same basic graphics as Galaxy, but its like a compilation of the boring parts of it.
Far less scale to all the environments, camera much further out, no whimsy or creativity to any of the level designs shown.

Sunshine is/was much more creative than this looks so far.

As I said, it's like the blandness of NSMB has infected 3D Mario.
 
Says who? Do you have some info I don't? How can this be? Just because you didn't like the game now is a quick cash-in?

I posted this in the Edge Mario World thread but I will post it here too:

In August 2011, Koizumi said:

“As it turns out, I have too many ideas at the moment for Mario games on Wii U. I’m going to have to start narrowing them down and thinking about which ideas might work well together so that the whole system will be an enjoyable experience rather than a hodgepodge of ideas.”

This was about 2 years ago and just a few months before the release of 3D Land. If he was just planning on a sequel of 3D Land for Wii U with multiplayer, it certainly doesn't sound like it from the quote above. Now we are left with a game that the game's own director says is sort of a hodgepodge of ideas from various Mario games (contradicting what his initial goal was based on the quote above). Sounds like Koizumi initially had more ambitious ideas. I wonder what happened to those :-(
 
I think the reason why this new game seems so lazy is because of its simplicity. The levels are just some blocks put together. They probably used a level creator which they also used for the 3DS game. I dont see a lot of things in these levels that are crafted by an artist, just Lego blocks put together...
 
I posted this in the Edge Mario World thread but I will post it here too:

In August 2011, Koizumi said:

“As it turns out, I have too many ideas at the moment for Mario games on Wii U. I’m going to have to start narrowing them down and thinking about which ideas might work well together so that the whole system will be an enjoyable experience rather than a hodgepodge of ideas.”

This was about 2 years ago and just a few months before the release of 3D Land. If he was just planning on a sequel of 3D Land for Wii U with multiplayer, it certainly doesn't sound like it from the quote above. Now we are ledt with a game that the game's own director says is sort of a hodgepodge of ideas from various Mario games. Sounds like Koizumi initially had more ambitious ideas. I wonder what happened to those :-(

3D Platformer with a 4 player co-op is ambitious. There's still much we don't know about the game too.
 
3D Platformer with a 4 player co-op is ambitious. There's still much we don't know about the game too.

That doesn't take away from the fact the Koizumi's initial goal was not to make a game that is just a "hodgepodge" of previous Mario games, yet in the Developer Direct video, that is exaclty how this game is described! Maybe he had more ambitious idead but Iwata may have wanted something they could develop in a short time to have ready for the holidays.
 
I posted this in the Edge Mario World thread but I will post it here too:

In August 2011, Koizumi said:

“As it turns out, I have too many ideas at the moment for Mario games on Wii U. I’m going to have to start narrowing them down and thinking about which ideas might work well together so that the whole system will be an enjoyable experience rather than a hodgepodge of ideas.”

This was about 2 years ago and just a few months before the release of 3D Land. If he was just planning on a sequel of 3D Land for Wii U with multiplayer, it certainly doesn't sound like it from the quote above. Now we are left with a game that the game's own director says is sort of a hodgepodge of ideas from various Mario games (contradicting what his initial goal was based on the quote above). Sounds like Koizumi initially had more ambitious ideas. I wonder what happened to those :-(

He could still incorporate those ambitious ideas into SM3DW. You have not seen everything this game has to offer.
 
He could still incorporate those ambitious ideas into SM3DW. You have not seen everything this game has to offer.

Obviously. I can only comment on what I see, not what I don't. I can't get excited for a game's features/gameplay ideas that have not been unveiled yet.
 
That doesn't take away from the fact the Koizumi's initial goal was not to make a game that is just a "hodgepodge" of previous Mario games, yet in the Developer Direct video, that is exaclty how this game is described! Maybe he had more ambitious idead but Iwata may have wanted something they could develop in a short time to have ready for the holidays.

What I understand by "hodgepodge of ideas" means a situation where you had lots of ideas but no coherent way to tie them together. I don't see how that would describe Super Mario 3D World. Just because it has elements from previous games (every Mario game has except the first one obviously) doesn't make it a hodgepodge of ideas.

Like what he said. He has lots of ideas but he can't use them all because that wouldn't make a good game. See?
 
I've gone back and forth on this game over the last few days, and right now I'm feeling pretty down on it again.

My biggest problem with this is that it seems to be focused on multiplayer, and many of the GAFers who've tried it say that it feels dumbed down as a result. At least in the levels shown for E3.

The camera and the style are all okay with me. I could even learn to love those aspects probably. I'm willing to try a 3D mario that's designed to play even more like 2D mario. That could be interesting.

But I can't deal with a mainline mario that's only fully enjoyable when you have two or three other people to play with. That just sucks. If EAD has made major sacrifices in order to accommodate local multi, then I have no interest in this at all.

Mainline mario should always be a single player game first and foremost. Multiplay is something you add on after you've made sure it's awesome for one person.

Also, any multiplayer focused game in the modern era should absolutely have an online mode of some kind.

If they have made a 3D mario that's basically a party game, I'm hoping Miyamoto turns over the tea table and this gets delayed into next year for a full retooling.

People said the same thing about NSMBWii and that turned out just fine in single-player.
 
I posted this in the Edge Mario World thread but I will post it here too:

In August 2011, Koizumi said:

“As it turns out, I have too many ideas at the moment for Mario games on Wii U. I’m going to have to start narrowing them down and thinking about which ideas might work well together so that the whole system will be an enjoyable experience rather than a hodgepodge of ideas.”

This was about 2 years ago and just a few months before the release of 3D Land. If he was just planning on a sequel of 3D Land for Wii U with multiplayer, it certainly doesn't sound like it from the quote above. Now we are left with a game that the game's own director says is sort of a hodgepodge of ideas from various Mario games (contradicting what his initial goal was based on the quote above). Sounds like Koizumi initially had more ambitious ideas. I wonder what happened to those :-(

Huh? I didn't follow you. This game has a lot of elements from past Mario games, plus new ideas implemented on it.(as every Mario game since the first one).

When he said "hodgepodge of ideas" Is a game without coherency, which so far it is not what SM3DW is.
 
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