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[Deified Data]

"I'm not blaming her buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut..."

People need to be honest with themselves and stop appending that to obviously offensive statements. Yes Serena, you blame her. You're upset that the lives of promising high school athletes was disrupted because some girl decided to make herself just irresistible to rapists. You figure that if you've been through life without being raped, how hard could it possibly be for someone else, unless they, you know, wanted it?

You see? This isn't how people offer helpful suggestions about how to avoid dangerous situations in the future. You do that by supporting rape prevention programs and victim treatment centers. This isn't even a benign case of her playing devil's advocate. Every time you bring the victim into this it's distracting from the actual perpetrator, and she knows this.

"She's lucky". Jesus, why do we ask stupid athletes for their stupid opinions on subjects they know nothing about.

 

[Haly]

The other ten percent is people mispronouncing "pas"

What a language focks pass.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Faux.


Since it means false in French, I'm pretty sure a high number of people have said it without the term outrage.

congratulations, pinky toe!

edit: to clarify, I pretty obviously meant "here, on this specific messageboard."

Unless there's a FrenchGAF I'm not aware of.

 

[DKehoe]

Aw, some on Serena, I thought you were cooler than this.

 

[jtb]

"I'm not blaming her buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut..."

People need to be honest with themselves and stop appending that to obviously offensive statements. Yes Serena, you blame her. You're upset that the lives of promising high school athletes was disrupted because some girl decided to make herself just irresistible to rapists. You figure that if you've been through life without being raped, how hard could it possibly be for someone else, unless they, you know, wanted it?

You see? This isn't how people offer helpful suggestions about how to avoid dangerous situations in the future. You do that by supporting rape prevention programs and victim treatment centers. This isn't even a benign case of her playing devil's advocate. Every time you bring the victim into this it's distracting from the actual perpetrator, and she knows this.

"She's lucky". Jesus, why do we ask stupid athletes for their stupid opinions on subjects they know nothing about.

ugh, I can't stand the "lucky" bullshit either. yes, she should thank her benevolent rapist for only raping her. what kind of an attitude is that?

 

[CornBurrito]

This is just a more benign version of "victim blaming".

Every bad thing could've been avoided in hindsight.

I remember we had a rape thread and someone gave the "she shouldn't have been with strangers" line. The people she was raped by were friends/acquaintances. When that was pointed out the guy shifted to "you can't trust anyone."

 

[freenudemacusers]

time to hit the panic room

 

[xenist]

it's not the same. And she's not victim blaming...not really.

It is absolutely, undoubtedly the same.

And to make it clear for the cheap seats. You could walk into your bedroom and find a naked woman, sitting spread eagle on your bed, smiling at you. You still don't get to stick your dick in without asking. She could even tell you it's OK to fuck only to change her mind mid pump. You still have to back off. Whether the woman was drunk, or a "slut," or in a bad neighborhood, or whatever her blame in this amounts to ZERO.

 

[Satch]

SERENA NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[BossLackey]

Guys, it was only rape

 

[Artemisia]

SERENA NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[OrlanisWorks]

I remember we had a rape thread and someone gave the "she shouldn't have been with strangers" line. The people she was raped by were friends/acquaintances. When that was pointed out the guy shifted to "you can't trust anyone."

Backed into a corner: throw shit rather than admit being in the wrong.

Serena needs to get hit with some knowledge. Or the worlds biggest tennis ball. Preferably both.

Her thing goes off like those very people who use the, "I'm not racist but..." and then undoubtedly says something racist. "I don't blame her, but she sorta is to blame to some extent."

She was raped. She didn't have a hand in that at all. To think she did, as in she actually assisted in what lead to rape, is fucking stupid as shit.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

People are taking this "victim blaming" blaming way too far.

 

[Satch]

People are taking this "victim blaming" blaming way too far.

right? the PC brigade does too much

 

[Ravensmash]

It is absolutely, undoubtedly the same.

And to make it clear for the cheap seats. You could walk into your bedroom and find a naked woman, sitting spread eagle on your bed, smiling at you. You still don't get to stick your dick in without asking. She could even tell you it's OK to fuck only to change her mind mid pump. You still have to back off. Whether the woman was drunk, or a "slut," or in a bad neighborhood, or whatever her blame in this amounts to ZERO.

But that doesn't necessarily take ANY blame away from the attacker - merely questioning why she was in a dangerous environment in the first place.

At least that's what I'm getting from the second part of her quote, not saying I necessarily agree/disagree but I can understand where her perspective is coming from.

The first part of the quote is fucking stupid though, definitely.

 

[Coconut]

Not entirely idiotic.

She isn't really blaming the girl, just suggesting a way that (sadly) the situation could be avoided by the girl, in hindsight. It doesn't condone the actions of the criminals.

Yeah it's cool for people to take advantage of people. You know if some one doesn't lock a door they aren't victims of a crime either or if you are hit by a car that drives away its not their fault so they should be able to drive away.

 

[Kinyou]

I can actually sort of understand the "they are only 16" "their whole life is over" arguments.

But those people seem to forget that the same applies to the victim, and that when you'd murder someone the "he's 16 and made a mistake" excuse would sound ridiculous. It's like they don't think before they speak

 

[Brian Griffin]

Oh god, the faux outrage.

She's not victim blaming but the girl's decisions, if she wasn't slipped something without her knowledge, have factored into it.

You can't always expect people to have YOUR best interests at heart in what THEY do.

That's like me putting the whole entirety of blame on a thief for stealing cash out of my wallet when I've knowingly left it laying around without supervision.

This is the definition of victim blaming.

Leaving a wallet unsupervised with a ton of cash in it is 100% legal. Taking a wallet that isn't yours is 100% illegal. The entirety of the blame falls on the thief in this analogy.

 

[Emerson]

Is the thief also putting his penis in you while he does it? Because if so, then it's the exact same thing.

I'm not getting involved in the prevailing discussion here because it's going to end horribly. But why has GAF at large decided that analogies/comparisons/generalizations are completely invalid in a discussion?

"Those situations aren't exactly the same" isn't a valid retort, in my opinion. The whole point of an analogy is to take a different situation which shares a common theme and use it to make a point.

 

[Lebron]

If she's raped in her life, I don't wanna hear her complain about anything. I don't even want her to call the cops. You just lost that right, girl.

Cereal Noooooooooooo


Not like this. Not like this

 

[Ravensmash]

Yeah it's cool for people to take advantage of people. You know if some one doesn't lock a door they aren't victims of a crime either or if you are hit by a car that drives away its not their fault so they should be able to drive away.

In this example, wouldn't it be fair to say that the perpetrator is entirely responsible for the actions committed (and nothing changes that regardless of how the vehicle was left), but separately the victim may have put themselves more at risk of such an incident though?

 

[royalan]

Serena, Serena...

I can't say I understand why she would say that. But, in a weird way, I understand the mentality?

I dunno - I come from a family of a LOT of women, and I can remember my mother and aunts giving talks to the young girls in my family that had a similar spirit. No man has the right to touch or treat you in any way that you're not comfortable with...but don't be stupid either. This world don't play fair, and you need to always be in control of yourself.

I feel like that might have been the spirit of what Serena was saying....but presented in the most ineloquent way possible.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Well...Fuck you Serena. Great example you are setting here.

Rapists did something stupid?
Girl should feel lucky?

I dunno. I come from a family of a LOT of women, and I can remember my mother and aunt's giving talks to the young girls in my family that had a similar spirit. No man has the right to touch or treat you in any way that you're not comfortable with...but don't be stupid either. This world don't play fair, and you need to always be in control of yourself.

She says for the rapists, "They did something stupid"

 

[Moral Panic]

If she's raped in her life, I don't wanna hear her complain about anything. I don't even want her to call the cops. You just lost that right, girl.

wtf

Saying something dumb means you're allowed to get raped?

 

[MThanded]

Beyond the issue of the steubenvile case.

I think its best to not get inebriated to the point of not remembering something with people you don't trust. That's just a general statement about that. Men or women.

 

[Dead Man]

How the hell is that not victim blaming?

Beyond the issue of the steubenvile case.

I think its best to not get inebriated to the point of not remembering something with people you don't trust. That's just a general statement about that. Men or women.

Of course. So?

 

[dorkimoe]

of course she would say that, shes like 6'6'' amazon woman who could kick any dudes ass. I recall her making stupid comments about some hot topic before too

 

[Crayons]

Does that mean Serena is going to be banned on GAF?

 

[cdyhybrid]

Oh boy.

 

[creationtheory]

The moral of the story is you can put yourself at increased risk but nobody is allowed to point that out after something bad happens.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

wtf

Saying something dumb means you're allowed to get raped?

No, according to Serena that's only when you drink too much to remember anything.

 

[Coconut]

In this example, wouldn't it be fair to say that the perpetrator is entirely responsible for the actions committed (and nothing changes that regardless of how the vehicle was left), but separately the victim may have put themselves more at risk of such an incident though?

And so because she was unconscious anyone could do anything they want to her many of those things not raping her and yet these boys decided to commit a crime. She didn't anything wrong she just drank too much.

 

[royalan]

of course she would say that, shes like 6'6'' amazon woman who could kick any dudes ass. I recall her making stupid comments about some hot topic before too

Serena Williams is 5'8

 

[AkuMifune]

Our default expectation should be that people act like decent human beings. Nothing else.

Any other expectation or defense is victim blaming.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I'm not getting involved in the prevailing discussion here because it's going to end horribly. But why has GAF at large decided that analogies/comparisons/generalizations are completely invalid in a discussion?

"Those situations aren't exactly the same" isn't a valid retort, in my opinion. The whole point of an analogy is to take a different situation which shares a common theme and use it to make a point.

In this specific case, it cheapens the seriousness of the act.

 

[Deified Data]

In this example, wouldn't it be fair to say that the perpetrator is entirely responsible for the actions committed (and nothing changes that regardless of how the vehicle was left), but separately the victim may have put themselves more at risk of such an incident though?

And then this begets the slippery-slope argument that devolves to the point of someone saying "Well maybe women should just stay indoors with their husbands if they don't want to share in the blame of their inevitable rape at the hands of a cruel, uncaring world". The more thought you give to this point of view the more absurd it becomes.

 

[Ravensmash]

And so because she was unconscious anyone could do anything they want to her and yet these boys decided to commit a crime. She didn't anything wrong she just drank too much.

Absolutely, I agree that she did nothing wrong.

Didn't want to imply that she had, btw.

 

[creationtheory]

Our default expectation should be that people act like decent human beings. Nothing else.

Any other expectation or defense is victim blaming.

So we should be naive by default.

 

[EdibleExplosives]

Serena's dead sister should have known better than to be hanging out in Compton.

And we're done here.

 

[Capital_Five]

Incapacitated is incapacitated. You can't order a fucking cheeseburger passed out drunk, you sure as shit can't ask to be raped. This whole "controversy" is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

So sick of victim blaming. In a civilized society no one should have to be "on guard" or "taking precautions" against things like this. Especially not at a party with people you know. If we have to worry about being raped every time you drink or walk alone at night it's maybe not the alcohol or the darkness's fault, but the people in the culture surrounding us.

 

[not psycho]

The first part of the quote is fucking stupid though, definitely.

The 2nd part of the quote is when she says the girl was lucky to only be raped (as though drinking with athletes usually gets you raped and murdered) and randomly questions whether she was a virgin. The whole thing is stupid.

This isn't the scorpion and the frog here. It isn't inherently the nature of athletes to rape and murder, and anyone hanging out with athletes better not drink, even if there is pressure to do so, because by their nature they will rape. It's the human and the human. A human drinking with another human, with the understanding that one human will not rape and/or murder the other.

Another reason victim blaming is so dumb is... where does it start? When she drank, or when she went to the party? If we want to help prevent rape, first we need to focus on the rapists. But yes, precaution is another good idea. So is "don't drink" the precaution you want to go with? Or are you being dishonest, and if she had been raped at the party anyway without drinking, you would have said "shouldn't have gone to such a party where the guys would be drinking." She could have been easily overpowered regardless. Telling girls they are stupid won't help them prevent rape. Making them feel "shit, I'm dumb for even coming to this party, I guess this is my fault" won't give them the confidence to overcome pressure.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I'm not getting involved in the prevailing discussion here because it's going to end horribly. But why has GAF at large decided that analogies/comparisons/generalizations are completely invalid in a discussion?

"Those situations aren't exactly the same" isn't a valid retort, in my opinion. The whole point of an analogy is to take a different situation which shares a common theme and use it to make a point.

The question is - what's the point of MAKING that point?

What possible benefit is to be gained by putting forth the stance that allows in any way for the rape of another human being to be "understandable?"

I asked this question in the most recent thread about the anti-rape ads from Europe, and never got an answer, instead people spiraled down the rabbit hole of increasingly tinier analogous justifications until it became this granular THING...

But really, what is to be gained from finding out people are discussing something like what happened in Steubenville, and trying to shove a foot in that closing door and saying "well, now wait a minute - lets look at this from the side of the people sexually assaulting an unconscious woman..."

Which is typically where the analogies come into play, because you can't just say "Let's look at this from the side of the rapists" without probably being instantly dismissed. So you have to use an analogy.

 

[Ravensmash]

And then this begets the slippery-slope argument that devolves to the point of someone saying "Well maybe women should just stay indoors with their husbands if they don't want to share in the blame of their inevitable rape at the hands of a cruel, uncaring world". The thought you give to this point of view the more absurd it becomes.

I wasn't applying it to rape - and I guess that's why the comparison to leaving something unlocked is very stupid actually due to extreme difference between the two situations. And again, I'm not saying I particularly agree/disagree with that notion - just bringing it up as a perspective.

The 2nd part of the quote is when she says the girl was lucky to only be raped (as though drinking with athletes usually gets you raped and murdered) and randomly questions whether she was a virgin. The whole thing is stupid.

This isn't the scorpion and the frog here. It isn't inherently the nature of athletes to rape and murder, and anyone hanging out with athletes better not drink, even if there is pressure to do so, because by their nature they will rape. It's the human and the human. A human drinking with another human, with the understanding that one human will not rape and/or murder the other.

Another reason victim blaming is so dumb is... where does it start? When she drank, or when she went to the party? If we want to help prevent rape, first we need to focus on the rapists. But yes, precaution is another good idea. So is "don't drink" the precaution you want to go with? Or are you being dishonest, and if she had been raped at the party anyway without drinking, you would have said "shouldn't have gone to such a party where the guys would be drinking." She could have been easily overpowered regardless. Telling girls they are stupid won't help them prevent rape. Making them feel "shit, I'm dumb for even coming to this party, I guess this is my fault" won't give them the confidence to overcome pressure.

Actually, this is a very good post - the bold highlighted especially. It's all very well saying that one shouldn't put themselves in these dangerous situations, but enjoying alcohol is perfectly legal. From doing a bit of quick research I found this very interesting page from a Scottish charity (was trying to identify how these things are handled in campaigns actually):

http://www.thisisnotaninvitationtorapeme.co.uk/drinking/#myth_tab

 

[Dead Man]

The moral of the story is you can put yourself at increased risk but nobody is allowed to point that out after something bad happens.

The point is that being at increased risk still means it is not your fault if people assault you.

 

[Deified Data]

So we should be naive by default.

No, it should be the standard we aspire to and judge ourselves by. It's the difference between "Don't rape" and "Don't put yourself in a position to be raped, those boys can't help themselves".

 

[akira28]

Serena, Serena...

I can't say I understand why she would say that. But, in a weird way, I understand the mentality?

I dunno - I come from a family of a LOT of women, and I can remember my mother and aunt's giving talks to the young girls in my family that had a similar spirit. No man has the right to touch or treat you in any way that you're not comfortable with...but don't be stupid either. This world don't play fair, and you need to always be in control of yourself.

I feel like that might have been the spirit of what Serena was saying....but presented in the most ineloquent way possible.

basically this. Serena is just too much a perfectionist and too hard on herself for her own good. She strikes me as the sort who would beat up on herself over a mistake like that. I mean, after she broke all their spines.

I don't see her blaming the victim, but I do see her acknowledging the victim's mistakes instead of ignoring them. People need to be trained, unfortunately. Unfortunately.

 

[creationtheory]

The point is that being at increased risk still means it is not your fault if people assault you.

You can point out that being at increased risk is stupid and still put full blame on the people who assaulted you. You can have it both ways.

 

[Infinite]

Disappointed in her

 

[AkuMifune]

So we should be naive by default.

I meant more as a society. On the other side, I guess we should just never trust anyone and always assume the worst of people?

Wait, don't answer that. I know the answer. It sucks.

 

[Brian Griffin]

The moral of the story is you can put yourself at increased risk but nobody is allowed to point that out after something bad happens.

More like it doesn't do any good to solve the problem of said risk by pointing it out. We can talk all we want, over and over, about all the decisions she made that eventually led to her rape but time spent on discussing that is time that is not spent on discussing why people rape others and how to stop it. The solution to stopping rape is less rapists. Any other talk regarding how women should change their behavior to avoid rape is just spinning our tires.