I think the real moral of the story is don't fucking rape people, and don't blame a person that gets raped for being raped.
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Serena Williams On Steubenville: "I'm Not Blaming The Girl But ..."
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I think the real moral of the story is don't fucking rape people, and don't blame a person that gets raped for being raped.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Eh, it's difficult to do so, and you need to be a lot clearer than Serena in that quote. She was not having it both ways.
I liked your other answer too. But yeah.
And that says it much more elequently than I could.
Comic Sans will do that to ya.
There's also the commonly used "Faux pas"congratulations, pinky toe!
edit: to clarify, I pretty obviously meant "here, on this specific messageboard."
Unless there's a FrenchGAF I'm not aware of.
The problem is that this wont help you against a rapist. Not saying that this means that every woman should have a gun in her pocket and that she is to blame if she doesn't, just saying that it's a dangerous world.
User 100115
Banned
Her comments are disgusting to be honest.
But considering the amount of 'I'm not blaming the victim, but...' in this thread, and people agreeing with her? Yeah no.
But considering the amount of 'I'm not blaming the victim, but...' in this thread, and people agreeing with her? Yeah no.
creationtheory
Member
I disagree with your logic. That's the same as saying you shouldn't drive defensively. The only way to prevent accidents is to have less drunk drivers. The truth is you should make sound decisions and there should be less rapists.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
You're right, I don't think there is much point in mentioning it. But I also don't really believe it's this malicious force of "victim blaming" that some like to frame it as. I think the number of people who truly believe it's the girl's fault is very, very few. Maybe I'm naive.
This is purely a point of discussion, and I'm halfway playing devil's advocate here, so people, please don't make me out to be Satan himself.
One might argue that humankind's nature is to be horrible. Using our modern definition of rape, the vast majority of human intercourse in history has been rape. Is it possible that we simply overestimate how evolved we are?
Such a busted analogy. Accidents are also caused by... accidents. Rapes don't happen accidently. Nobody trips and lands with their dick in a girl by mistake.
Ravensmash
Member
From the amount of stupid celebrity comments we regularly see, I think it's safe to say that a lot of these PR people are awful.
How hard is it to say "Shut up, don't say anything stupid - if you feel like the issue being raised could be a contentious one then steer the conversation back to a topic of your choosing or be quiet"?
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
Nobody characterizes a drunk driver as an "accident." It's a crime.
MWS Natural
Member
Yeah, a victim can't even make a poor decision now. If you point out anything you are automatically blaming them.
User 100115
Banned
How is 'Well, if you hadn't gotten drunk...' not blaming the victim?
DigitalRicket
Member
It all depends. There's welcoming an assault and then there's being smart about a situation.
I'm not blaming the girl. I'm just saying she could've easily avoided this if she were smart (not something teenagers are, I know). But I liken it to walking in Compton in the middle of the night holding out an iPad and wearing noise-canceling headphones. You don't do that because you know you're welcoming the attention and you can't blame others for you being oblivious to where you are.
Sure, we all wish we lived in an ideal world where people wouldn't hurt each other but we don't. People are disposed to take advantage of others and people need to be taught to avoid those types of situations.
The guys involved in the rape deserved their punishment to the T, but I'm not giving a free pass to a girl either who could've easily stayed away from these types and maybe went to see a movie or whatever.
They don't need you to point out that they made a mistake. I'm sure they have plenty to deal with already, regret included.
They gain nothing from it, the only person that benefits is you and your own sense of superiority.
creationtheory
Member
I guess you didn't see the part where I said drunk drivers...
The post I quoted said the only way to reduce car accidents was by reducing drunk drivers. It is a busted analogy.
I guess you didn't see the part where you said the only way to reduce accidents was to reduce drunk drivers.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
It was obvious what he was talking about.
creationtheory
Member
He doesn't understand how analogies work.
Yeah, a bad analogy. If he said the only way to reduce drink driving accidents is to reduce drink driving he may have had something.
LOL
I...don't think that's what she was trying to say.
The words are messed up. What she said has problems with it. But if I'm reading between the lines, I don't think she's trying to say that the girl was to blame for what happened to her.
And I don't think the 'super tall amazon is insensitive to rape because she doesn't know fear' angle is very accurate either.
You don't blame the sharkbite victim for being in the water. But you might, you might tell them what they did wrong. does one lead to the other? Mistakes made means blame?
Joel Was Right
Member
Rape is a particularly sensitive topic to be discussing whether or not the victim had undermined themselves in anyway prior to the actual incident. But this "blame" narrative isn't unique to rape but in fact rather common. For example, if you park a Porsche in a very poor area with high crime rates, and then have that Porsche damaged or burgled, at some point you will be asked why you parked it there. Or, say you had an expensive watch mugged off you - you'll be asked why you wore it in such and such place. The intent isn't to hold you responsible for what happened but rather understand whether or not you drew attention to yourself, and thus the wrong attracted the wrong group.
I think this is where the whole "she was asking for it" narrative originates from. I don't believe those who look at it from Serena's perspective are suggesting women are asking to be violated by e.g. wearing provocative clothing, but rather whether or not they drew the wrong kind of crowd. Of course, in the grand scheme of things, taking a e.g. drink from a stranger at a bar doesn't quantify you as being deserving of nefarious treatment; it doesn't really matter. But, you will see ads reminding women to specifically not do that. You will see ads to not walk home alone at night. You will see ads reminding you not to take out your smartphone in crowded areas. You will see ads for items to hide things inside of your car.
The [rhetorical] question Serena Williams is offering therefore isn't "did she deserve it?" but rather "did she make a mistake at some point that night for those to take advantage of?". It's a question set out from a desire to trying to understand how exactly something could have happened - how to make sense of it. It isn't set out from an ideological viewpoint that women should hide themselves at home, for example. The idea that a victim did something which, in hindsight, wasn't a good idea as well having the misfortune of having to come across the perpetrators is an idea that will make sense to most people generally speaking. That doesn't of course mean that even in their eyes there would be an equivalency of blame.
I think this is where the whole "she was asking for it" narrative originates from. I don't believe those who look at it from Serena's perspective are suggesting women are asking to be violated by e.g. wearing provocative clothing, but rather whether or not they drew the wrong kind of crowd. Of course, in the grand scheme of things, taking a e.g. drink from a stranger at a bar doesn't quantify you as being deserving of nefarious treatment; it doesn't really matter. But, you will see ads reminding women to specifically not do that. You will see ads to not walk home alone at night. You will see ads reminding you not to take out your smartphone in crowded areas. You will see ads for items to hide things inside of your car.
The [rhetorical] question Serena Williams is offering therefore isn't "did she deserve it?" but rather "did she make a mistake at some point that night for those to take advantage of?". It's a question set out from a desire to trying to understand how exactly something could have happened - how to make sense of it. It isn't set out from an ideological viewpoint that women should hide themselves at home, for example. The idea that a victim did something which, in hindsight, wasn't a good idea as well having the misfortune of having to come across the perpetrators is an idea that will make sense to most people generally speaking. That doesn't of course mean that even in their eyes there would be an equivalency of blame.
because all it amounts to is a slippery slope argument. well, if she hadn't gotten drunk. well, if she hadn't worn that dress. if she hadn't gone to the party. well, if she hadn't lived in steubenville. all it serves to do is (partially) absolve the rapist of responsibility for the rape and create a culture of fear where the woman cannot do anything because of "risk."
rape is not a natural phenomena like the weather or the tides. it is a conscious decision made by an individual to commit a heinous act. it is NOT an inevitability that is out of our control.
I've said my piece on victim blaming in the other thread. All I have to add is this:
You know the phrase "No offense, but...."?
We've all been hurt by something that came after that phrase, at least once in our lives. Just because you open a statement with a phrase that purports to modify it doesn't mean that the words that follow are somehow magically transformed.
She can say "I'm not blaming her, but...."
And if the words that follow only make sense in terms of assigning blame, then that is what she is doing. Taken in light of these words coming alongside Serena questioning whether the rapists deserved so harsh a punishment, I see no other rational way to interpret her.
You know the phrase "No offense, but...."?
We've all been hurt by something that came after that phrase, at least once in our lives. Just because you open a statement with a phrase that purports to modify it doesn't mean that the words that follow are somehow magically transformed.
She can say "I'm not blaming her, but...."
And if the words that follow only make sense in terms of assigning blame, then that is what she is doing. Taken in light of these words coming alongside Serena questioning whether the rapists deserved so harsh a punishment, I see no other rational way to interpret her.
you don't necessarily have to fall down slippery slopes. It's just easier to do so.
but they don't only make sense in terms of assigning blame. They make sense in terms of making smarter choices, surviving anything that is thrown at you, knowing your limits, knowing the dangers of your environment. Pointing this stuff out isn't victimizing the victim with recapitulation of everything she did wrong. If that's how you want to take it, you can. But you can also see it as her being extremely practical, not even pausing for victimization, but to say, 'ok, this happened, you're going to survive, you're going to go back out there, but this is what you WON'T do next time...'
Also, lets throw away that old saw "the word but means, 'ignore everything I said before but'." That logic doesn't always work.
but they don't only make sense in terms of assigning blame. They make sense in terms of making smarter choices, surviving anything that is thrown at you, knowing your limits, knowing the dangers of your environment. Pointing this stuff out isn't victimizing the victim with recapitulation of everything she did wrong. If that's how you want to take it, you can. But you can also see it as her being extremely practical, not even pausing for victimization, but to say, 'ok, this happened, you're going to survive, you're going to go back out there, but this is what you WON'T do next time...'
Also, lets throw away that old saw "the word but means, 'ignore everything I said before but'." That logic doesn't always work.
TheKaeptain
Banned
"I like black people but..."
VanquishUK
Member
"I'm not blaming the girl"
Proceeds to blame her parents and the girl.
Proceeds to blame her parents and the girl.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
Again, he misspoke (-typed), but it was exceedingly obvious what he meant. You're doing nothing but quibbling over the way it was presented.
MWS Natural
Member
The problem with GAF is that people think the world revolves around right and wrong, it doesn't. Should a woman be able to walk around half naked drunk anywhere she wants? Yes. She should have to freedom to do and dress however she wants in an ideal world. But it in the REAL world there are precautions she should take to lessen the chance of something unfortunate happening (ie not wandering around drunk and half naked on a dark street). I am not blaming the victim or condoning rape at all, just try to make smart decisions.
As a black man there are precautions I have to take in my day to day life that people of other races don't. Is it fair? No, but that's the society we live in. Should people just not be racist? Sure but this isn't the perfect ideal world.
Deified Data
Banned
Yeah, she mentions her opinion might be different if the guys slipped something into her drink, but it absolutely wouldn't have been. People continually move the goalposts in arguments like these. If she didn't want to be date raped she shouldn't have been drinking with strangers. If she didn't want to be raped in her own home she should have had a stronger lock and worn less revealing pajamas, etc, etc. It never ends.
There is an edit button and a reply button to correct things. Maybe he shouldn't have been on GAF if he didn't want to get misunderstood. Maybe he should have posted defensively.
So what about the women who are abducted in broad day light kept in some weird sex dungeon and raped over and over again did they not do their best to not get raped?
You see the problem is you are still blaming the victim.
I heavily disagree. People don't always think clearly, especially so in times of grief and often arrive at incorrect conclusions. Victim blaming itself is a form of unclear thinking because it implies the idea that people are fit to commit a crime if they see the opportunity for it. I don't know much about this particular case, so I don't know if she did make a really poor judgement choice, or if Selena is just talking out her ass here. However, it's plausible that a victim might be entirely unaware of a poor decision they made that gave criminals an opportunity to perform their crime on them and might make that decision again. Some people are just unthoughtful, unreflective and....well, stupid. And the only way to enlighten another person is to talk to them about the incident, not in a condescending way, but just so that everything is comprehended so that not only they but also anyone who sees the discussion can avoid the situation if they find themselves doing the same thing.
cubicle47b
Member
Obviously no one deserves to be murdered or raped or have other people do bad things to them in general and the blame lies solely on the people committing the crime. I have no problem with people calling victims dumb when they do something dumb, though (no opinion on what happened at Steubenville since I didn't read up on that crime).
She'll apologize shortly, I'm sure.
She'll apologize shortly, I'm sure.
creationtheory
Member
I will tell my daughter about this case. I will tell her she should never be drunk like that.
If at some point in the future she is drunk and is raped I will put all of the blame on the rapist. Does that make me a rape apologist?
If at some point in the future she is drunk and is raped I will put all of the blame on the rapist. Does that make me a rape apologist?
naturals law
Got Damn
In my heart of hearts, I really think this is what Serena was trying to convey.
She just went about it in the absolute worst way possible.
LOL
Deified Data
Banned
Only if you said "I told you so" after it happens, as Serena seems keen to convey in this instance.
creationtheory
Member
This guy gets it.
Will you blame her for the rape or hold her accountable for the tragedy that took place?
As nice as it'd be to just say "We should focus on telling more people not to rape", well, we tell people not to mug others as well, and you can be sure there are neighborhoods I ain't entering after a certain hour. I can't make other people not mug me, but I can decrease my chances that they will.
I think you're being generous. She says of the rapists, "they did something stupid", and is not sure the punishment they got was fair. Seems like a pretty obvious case of rape apologism.
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