User 100115
Banned
Those things are not actually true though.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Serena Williams On Steubenville: "I'm Not Blaming The Girl But ..."
- Thread starter WascallyWabbit
- Start date
- Status
Those things are not actually true though.
Deified Data
Banned
That's a good 50% of GAF right off the bat.
perfectchaos007
Member
More rapes happen in daylight than night time? i would not have guessed that
freenudemacusers
Member
you should probably look up rape stats before making such (totally incorrect) assumptions.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
NOBODY IS SAYING RAPE IS JUSTIFIED. NOBODY.
Goddamn, you guys need to stop with the "Criticize the victim's actions=condone rapists" rhetoric. These are two separate issues. Saying that the girl should have the wherewithal to know that losing control at a party could lead to unseemly activity does not mean that a person is rooting for rapists.
perfectchaos007
Member
can you direct me to the more reliable stats then?
Manmademan
Member
This. I see what she's saying here. Getting blackout drunk at 16 is asking for all kinds of things to happen to you. it was just a matter of time. Might not have been rape, might have been assault, might have been an accident, might have been simply drinking herself to death via alcohol poisoning.
Rape is terrible, rapists are terrible, but her behavior was reckless.
wsoxfan1214
Banned
It doesn't fucking MATTER if she lost control at a party. That should not lead to rape and she certainly shouldn't have to think, "oh, if I get drunk, I may get raped!"
Women should never have to not do something out of fear of it leading to rape. ever. People don't seem to get that.
The poster before me is absolutely correct.
you're not condoning the rapist, you're absolving them (even if only partially) of responsibility for the act.
User 100115
Banned
The problem is that this is the only crime we tend to turn the focus on the victim for. Someone gets murdered? "Wow, that horrible, I hope they catch the guy." Someone gets raped? "What was she wearing? Why was she drinking?"
DigitalRicket
Member
My point is that humans will continue to do this. Imagine creating a Utopian future where there is peace everywhere. Tell me how could that be achieved? You could easily have 99 individuals be perfect, model citizens only to have it all come crumbling down due to the efforts of 1 person who cannot control his primal urges (i.e. control his sexual desire, his temperament, or whatever).
You cannot suss out these imperfections out of mankind as a whole.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
I hear you. I don't think our viewpoints are all that different in reality and I don't think I'm doing a great job articulating myself so I don't want to go around and around on it.
I'll try to express something tangentially related that I think bothers me with these topics though:
Whenever we have a situation like this, there are two prevailing attitudes that the majority of level-headed posters seem to have (at the same time):
1) Rape is an inhuman, evil deed and there is absolutely no excuse for it. People that rape should be drawn and quartered (certainly not everyone says such things, but plenty of people call for blood pretty openly)
ALSO
2) Most rape (by acquaintances) is committed by ordinary people who, as a result of rape culture, believe that sex without consent is okay as long as no force is involved
The problem is that these two viewpoints, though often espoused by the same person, are wildly contradictory. Is the date/acquaintance-rapist a monster or is he himself a victim of a culture that failed to educate him? It's certainly an easier explanation to just say he's evil and be done with it (if not accurate).
I think this kind of internal conflict of logic is the origination of a lot of the problems we deal with in these threads.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
That's horseshit. Do you live in the real world?
No it isn't. There are plenty of murders that end with the "Well, that guy should never have been there to begin with" or"They should never have associated with those guys". Bad things happen if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, and walking through life oblivious to that fact is a great way for bad things to happen to you.
faceless007
Member
What is the point of saying this? Every single person here understands this. You aren't educating anyone of anything useful. But the point is just because something might always happen on some level in aggregate doesn't mean there's no point in trying to minimize it. Why would you be arguing against that?
There's plenty of condescending shit to go around for every action this girl and/or her parents took, but when it comes to the actual rapists everyone just goes "yeah that's awful". You'd think people would be much more concerned with how so many people are raising piece of shit humans capable of doing this.
rocketknight
Member
This is untrue, but because so many people accept (like you did) their gut instinct as The Way Things Are, things like this are brought up as avenues for victim blaming.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
If only people will see it that way, no one is condoning the actions of the attackers but could she have taking necessary steps to avoid such a thing happening? absolutely.
So murder and rape are the only crimes that are commited eh? Someone said this already but what if you had a gold watch and you wore it into a dirt poor neighborhood and you so happen to be mugged, do you think that you could have taken some precaution to make sure that does not happen? does that however mean that the blame is on you, absolutely not.
wsoxfan1214
Banned
What about it is horseshit? They shouldn't have to and we should stop implying that.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This is the same fucking fallacy that snags up every single gun control debate that ever exists.
What is the point of even bringing this into the discussion? You're arguing for futility. It's completely counter-productive to the idea of lessening the negative we're talking about.
It also, very subtly, puts forward the notion that it's somehow ridiculous/undesirable to even ASPIRE to the idea that things could be better. Foolish even.
Again, why would you put forth that argument? Did you think about the why before you lobbed it out there? Did you consider what possible benefit such an argument could possibly provide? What benefits are there to essentially arguing "look, it's kinda futile, you're not gonna change everyone, so..."
What is the net benefit there?
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
Kinda off topic but man, it's just never a good idea to get black out don't know where you are drunk in the first place. People get in fights, get mugged, wreck their cars, kill people with their cars, do stupid shit, etc. I'm just saying in general don't get so trashed you don't know where you are of what you are doing.
Again, refer to my post on the previous page. rapists (and, muderers for that matter) are not these mythical Hannibal Lecter-like creatures that are born pyschopaths and have one desire and one desire only and that is to ruin the party for the rest of us. they are, by and large, "normal" people. it is too easy to create this picture of the rapist or the murderer as the other, but really, that is just a smokescreen to, again, absolve them of blame.
maybe you think that the amount of rape and murder in the world is the lowest we can bring it. I don't so why should I tolerate it? you want to live in a shitty world, be my guest.
Brian Griffin
Member
But it does however keep the focus of the discussion on the girl and nothing else. I know you are not rooting for the rapists but you sure aren't scrutinizing them either. What about their decisions that led to them to become rapists? I haven't been following this case closely but from this thread alone I know more about the girl and what she did than the people who raped her.
freenudemacusers
Member
1. sorry for the dicky response.
2. rainn is a good start. there are a couple other sources specifically about clothing that I can't really google at the moment.
Dreams-Visions
Member
this thread is an annual event, isn't it.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Monthly.
No, it's the practical reality of you having done everything to reduce that probability. There's no moral judgement call for this. Just those that protect themselves to the utmost, and those that don't. The ones that did are better for it, the ones that don't aren't bad or to blame, but they need to learn as well. Both can still be victims, and neither is to blame for that. No one is even implying it, in this specific instance, where in others we might, because of what this is. No one is saying that she contributed to what happened to her. Or if they are, they're incorrect. But the reduction wasn't done either. You can do everything humanly possible and still be victimized.
Calling her reckless? Bad.
Telling her what she can do to protect herself and make sure she knows to do it, always? Necessary.
How do we do that? Just by telling people "Don't rape" ?
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
The comment was alright until that last sentence. Damn.
It's a start and certainly better than telling people "don't get raped."
User 100115
Banned
Because I used murder as an example, I am saying that murder and rape are the only crimes?
Take robbery for instance. Someone breaks into your house and steals all your shit. People are going to say "Man that sucks, I am sorry, I hope they catch the guy." Not "Dude, you should have had an alarm and bars and a dog, what did you expect?"
questionmark
Member
This part right here, pisses me off. Implying that they should have received lighter sentence just because she was drunk.
DigitalRicket
Member
I'm arguing the fact that there are improvements we can all make to lower these crimes from happening. For instance, by these dudes getting charged for rape it should show others that messing with someone sexually, even if they are "asking for it", just doesn't fly. I'm hoping other teenage boys learn from their mistake.
What I was arguing is that what's easier to do to make sure this whole event didn't happen? The girl could've just stayed away from that crowd, not drank underage, or whatever. But again, like I've been saying, there are no ways to stop people from being people. She was illegally drinking underage to begin with, right? She was just being a teenager. The same with these guys who didn't go to the party to actively look for girls to rape. No, they were just being horny guys who probably were hanging out with horny girls and then one thing led to another and then a wrong turn was taken.
In the end, all I'm saying is that there are ways to prevent crimes from happening before they happen. I'm not blaming the victim at all. What I'm saying is that there will always be crime so potential victims need to be vigilant knowing that this sorta stuff happens. Though I doubt the girl thought she would get "raped" by people she knew, and I also doubt the guys thought of it as "rape" too. These people, kids really, were just too young to even know what was going on... which again... goes to my argument that you can't stop people from being people.
Actually they might say "aw man, you didn't have an alarm? You went out of town and didn't do X Y and Z? Well...you need to learn how to protect yourself. So it doesn't happen again."
The won't blame you for it because you didn't do those things, would they?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
So it IS basically chest-beating then? To share with others that you believe you're basically much more prepared to be not-raped than people who are raped?
That's a weak reason to essentially hand out hypothetical absolution in varying degrees to rapists.
Yes - so this further makes the turn of the discussion towards what she didn't do even more baffling, because as you point out - even IF she'd done everything she was supposed to do, she still could have been victimized.
Or even worse, she could have done everything she was supposed to do and someone, in their need to make their analogy, nitpicks at her actions ANYWAY, thus increasing the feeling of helplessness and futility that makes these arguments so frustrating.
Because the end result of that p.o.v. is status quo. Not betterment, not incremental improvement. Just this, and no further forward progression.
Because attempts at forward progression in the discourse are automatically met with Devil's Advocate analogies aimed at the kneecaps.
So where's the benefit there?
DeaconKnowledge
Member
What's horseshit about it is that you think that acting like something won't happen is enough to deter it. We should be able to live in a world where a person can do what they will without fear of harm. That's not the world we live in though, and as a result we have to guard ourselves and our loved ones from harm.
faceless007
Member
Yeah, this is what I was trying to put into words but couldn't really. There's something really galling about how in any discussion about minimizing or preventing rape, some people inevitably get really, really interested in describing the reasons that such measures might be futile or pointless and why there's really no point in taking these measures at all. Some people seem to display an inordinate amount of concern for not wanting anyone to waste their time trying to change the world even a little, so we should all just give up and go home. Oh, they'll insist that rape is bad and people who do it should feel bad, but that's not the really important thing to them; the really important thing is that we understand our efforts will likely be in vain.
Might as well be telling us to be quiet and just let it happen.
I don't see how you could have gotten that, but I won't try to take it away from you.
Does a moral judgement have to be made? You seem to think the blame aspect is necessary, when I'm telling you it is not. It isn't "look at me, I am prepared I am protected I am superior." It's "the world is dangerous, I want to be safe, I need to do these things to ensure that safety as best I can."
So where does the bragging come in? Or the nitpicking? wtf? We're talking about telling people to protect themselves, and you're having this hypothetical where Jim Bob comes and tries to make these girls feel worse because "they brought it on themselves because they didn't protect themselves". That has nothing to do with this. I'm specifically talking about NOT doing that.
User 100115
Banned
Will they bring up at trial when they do catch the guy how many times you've given stuff to your friends before? How your house was kinda flashy and looked like it had a lot of nice stuff inside? How since you didn't have an alarm and bars and a dog and left town, you really wanted that guy to take your stuff and just regret that decision now?
rocketknight
Member
Even women who do everything "right" (in quotes because that makes me feel disgusting) get raped, and after they're still told the same kinds of things. If she stayed out until 23:00, well, she should have known to go home at 22:00! She shouldn't have gone out on a Friday night, she should have been studying! There's no end to the bullshit of "the rape victim should have done this" and "the rape victim should have done that."
Women already know this, because it's beaten into us 24/7. Nobody saying what victims should have done is doing anything that actually helps victims or prevents rapists from raping.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
There's a long way between approval and absolution. People act like they can point at "approval" and say "That's not me!" while making arguments that allow for absolution & understanding on behalf of the rapists.
I don't get why you'd do that. I really don't get why Serena Williams did it.
Because that's what I asked and that's how you answered. It's really basic. You need to ask yourself how it is you don't see that statement as being intellectual/moral chest-beating in any way.
Because that's the root of it.
I don't get why you'd do that. I really don't get why Serena Williams did it.
Because that's what I asked and that's how you answered. It's really basic. You need to ask yourself how it is you don't see that statement as being intellectual/moral chest-beating in any way.
Because that's the root of it.
Well duh. Obviously it's not a great idea to get blackout drunk, no shit Sherlock.
Shockingly though people don't plan for it. It's pretty rare to go out planning to get so drunk you can't find your way home, it still happens though. People don't just decide 'well I'm pretty merry right now, time for a couple more shots so I can start puking my guts up'. Who here hasn't been accidentally completely worse for wear at some point?
I don't even see what being drunk has to do with this at all. The only difference her being drunk makes to the whole thing is it gives the rapists a pathetic excuse to justify their actions to themselves, 'she didn't say no'.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
The entire point of this discussion was based off of Serena's comments on this subject. For better or for worse, her actions are also a part of this discussion and we can't just handwave them to browbeat guys who everyone pretty much already agrees are guilty.
Manmademan
Member
This is a bad example, because there's a difference between someone who isn't conspicuous and ends up getting robbed, and someone who buys a truckload of expensive electronics, piles them all in the living room, leaves the lights on, the windows open and the door unlocked then leaves town for a week.
ONE of those behaviors is a lot more likely to end up with you being robbed, and one of them most certainly will have people telling you "well, what did you think was going to happen?" People will still blame the burglars for breaking the law, but that doesn't completely excuse reckless and stupid behavior on your part.
Likewise, if you go walking through the ghetto in neo-nazi gear and get the shit beaten out of you and possibly killed, no one will have sympathy for you because that kind of behavior around the wrong people will get you hurt or killed, and it was easily avoided.
If I don't lock my doors, my insurance won't pay out. They expect me to take reasonable precautions even though I'm sure they are in agreement with me that people shouldn't rob houses.
they were too young to even know what was going on? that's complete bullshit. they knew what they were doing—they just thought they could get away with it. you may not be blaming the victim but now you're doing your best to absolve the rapist of any blame here. not to mention the constant references to human nature—people being people? it's in our nature to rape other people? i am one of those people—as are you. I can only speak for myself, but I have never raped anyone. nor have I murdered anyone. a rapist makes a conscious choice—to rape.
and it is that simple. rape is rape.
I'm not even sure what your point is at this point—rape is inevitable... and we have reached the lowest possible minimum and it's time to call it a day?
I guess I just don't understand where you're coming from here. What could we possibly stand to gain by taking your stance? It seems incredible fatalistic and defeatist, not to mention lets the rapist (ever so slightly) off the hook. The world is shit. So what? Don't you want it to be better?
faceless007
Member
Yeah, the world should definitely be taking its cues for ethical behavior from insurance companies.
rocketknight
Member
I think I saw analogy on the SAT: Woman at a party :: Neo-Nazi in the ghetto
no, you need to explain how it is that. Or someone else explain it.
Well if they have a scumbag lawyer who is trying to assail the character of the victim and say that they somehow contributed to their victimization, yes. But we all recognize that tactic and agree that it should be immediately tossed out.
So lets not protect ourselves at all then, because no matter what you do, you can still be victimized. Because nothing prevents rapists from raping, even if you've made it practically a non-possibility with your actions.
Always look both ways when crossing the street. It won't protect you from that falling piano, but the speeding bus will have to run someone else over.
A different example then. There used to be a PSA on UK television advising people to be careful when leaving the pub and calling a taxi because their large-screen smartphones lit up and made them a target for mugging. I'm sure the makers of the PSA thought that muggers were scum.
My point is that we do tell people to stay aware of their surroundings and to be mindful of the fact that some people are fucking scum. Yes, it would be ideal if we could just do away with the scum, but we can't.
Manmademan
Member
so you see no difference between "woman at a party" and "16 year old blackout drunk at a party?"
the two are NOT equivalent. I have a daughter. if I found out she was blackout drunk at a party at 16 she would have hell to pay even if nothing happened to her. That's EXTREMELY dangerous and reckless behavior.
Let me give you an example. When I was much younger (but still over 21) I was at a party, I was drinking, and I got tired. I go into a side room to lay down. (it was my buddy's place.) Some dude I didn't know there ASSUMED I was blacked out, snuck into the room and tried to take my pants off. He got thrown down a flight of stairs. If I hadn't been aware of my surroundings, who knows what that dude would have tried to get away with.
This is not a female issue, this is a "always be aware of your actions and surroundings" issue.
- Status