Innovationless, actually.
Super Mario 3D World for Wii U
- Thread starter Darklord
- Start date
Innovationless, actually.
Not necessarily open world in the sense that you can go anywhere at any time, or have sidequests and whatnot. But more akin to an adventure game where you explore or travel through the levels using Mario's platforming abilities. It's certainly a challenge having both an interesting and coherent world AND varied, challenging and fun platfroming. A challenge that Nintendo only attempted in Sunshine with decidedly mixed results.
Madnesslink5
Member
I havn't played the 3D World Demo nor 3D Land so I can't say too much, but it does look like pretty fun platforming, albeit more focused on `gimmicks` (various suits+powerups) than the straight up platforming from the SMSS levels. Not to mention that it looks alot easier than the aforementioned SMSS levels, hopefully the difficulty curve gets a lot steeper.
catstronaut
Member
I think the Fluddless levels are on the farthest end of pure platforming that 3D Mario's ever gotten to, actually. So if you love those segments, I think you should naturally like the direction that 3DLand/World have taken, and actually push for *more* in that direction. The Fluddless levels are more focused on platforming over exploration when compared to 3DLand, and they have a steeper challenge.
Spieler Eins
Member
3D Land isn't even 2 years old, this game's development clearly started afterwards and looks like it could have easily started as 3DS DLC. Maybe that's were this impression comes from? There's a reason everyone was excited for the first HD mainline Mario game since january and now most of the same media reports on the lacklustre Nintendo E3. goddamned Mario Kart looks more ambitious than 3D World. The overview of the first course comes closer to the expectations for EAD Tokyo's HD effort than this game. (Not even solely graphically, the whole gravity idea seems fresher than ,,But it has multiplayer and lots of shit from old games... in 3D!!!'') Which is pretty sad and makes such assumptions perfectly understandable.
Sunshine failed because of a rushed release date, but at least tried to be something new and follow the series' legacy by showing off the GCNs strength and not rehashing the same formular from a previous game that was made for completely different hardware like a year before...
Man, can I borrow your 3DS? Sounds like it must have some crazy games if this could be DLC for it.
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
The more I've slept on it, the less concerned I've become about this game. It'll be very solid and that's great.
The one thing I haven't come to terms with is (unless it's been mentioned in the previous 60 pages and I missed it) is what I imagine will be the likely exclusion of orchestrated music in favor of MIDI comps.
Someone please tell me I'm wrong, I want to be wrong.
The one thing I haven't come to terms with is (unless it's been mentioned in the previous 60 pages and I missed it) is what I imagine will be the likely exclusion of orchestrated music in favor of MIDI comps.
Someone please tell me I'm wrong, I want to be wrong.
So you're just going against all evidence and testimony.
Ok sure.
Yeah, they're probably lying.
Throwaway123456789
Member
You're most likely wrong, as Miyamoto said we should know more on the matter soon (and smiled) in an interview with IGN(?). If I remember correctly.
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
?! My curiosity has just peaked again. SMG 1+2 had the best OSTs last gen, true story.
Piqued
And no, that's Xenoblade.3D Land had a really good soundtrack without orchestration, though.
Main Theme
Clocktower
Snow Theme
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
Piqued
Well that also had an incredible OST and was my GOTY in 2011 (and would have been for 2012 but I didn't want to be redundant). ;P
Spieler Eins
Member
Well, yes the 3DS is crazy and if the WiiU's lineup was even half as good or it finally, at it's third E3, had an outlook as good as the 3DS after it's very first E3, we wouldn't have a problem - even if Nintendo's Tokyo team is about to deliver their most unimpressive game yet.
Obviously, they polished it up. Just like Pikmin. Even though it's clearly not possible for the previous platforms anymore, doesn't change that both of those give off underwhelming impressions with ,,last gen up-port'' written all over it.
If it wasn't such an obvious rehash, it also really wouldn't matter if the graphics weren't top notch. Clearly, you can complain about some details like poor talking animations in Wonderful 101, but unlike 3D World, I instantly feel the effort and the care that went into the game whenever I see it. A complete novelty among pretty much all the other Nintendo WiiU games this year, which makes it the only one that makes me feel like it truly deserves to be bought and the purchase of a new console was worth it.
I didn't hear too much in the dev Direct that would contradict any of this. ,,We've had the WiiU in mind during the 3D Land development'' basically sounds like we are dealing with a game that started from some 3DS leftovers not very long ago.
And clearly, Nintendo's people never lie! (meanwhile, we are still waiting for the promised WiiU launch window to end after 7 months, lol)
First MP 3D Mario game says no?
Also, how can anyone say such a thing based on a handful of levels. We really dont know much about the depth of the game yet.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
I don't believe that you've both played through SM3DL and watched the trailers for SM3DW.
The games don't look anything alike, unless you are counting graphical stylings?
The games don't look anything alike, unless you are counting graphical stylings?
Davey Cakes
Member
Exactly.
The game will find some way to keep it fresh, if EVERY other previous Mario game is to go by.
But yeah, regardless of what we haven't seen, the mere existence of simultaneous multiplayer in 3D World means that the game is innovating. While the NSMB games already did multiplayer in this fashion, 3D Mario is a somewhat different beast so it still counts as an innovation, even if it's a small one.
I'm really excited to play 3D World multiplayer. The more I think about it the more I just want to play it. I think it has potential to be more entertaining than NSMB Wii/U in this regard.
No, I mean your magic 3DS that can play games other 3DSes and Wiis couldn't play. It really doesn't have last gen port written anywhere. The level scale and complexity of the levels they showed at E3 were more than Mario Galaxy pulled of, and the amount of detail was very high. The game only shares art direction and some level design with 3D Land/Galaxy.
Have you seen it in motion full resolution direct feed?
Please tell me you're joking.
Yes, I realize that this is an emulated screenshot, but the art assets and world design are what I'm referencing.
Throwaway123456789
Member
Here you go. The game reunites the music composers from the Galaxy games: http://www.destructoid.com/super-mario-3d-world-reunites-mario-galaxy-composers-256073.phtml
Time to get hyped!
Please tell me you're joking.
Yes, I realize that this is an emulated screenshot, but the art assets and world design are what I'm referencing.
That world looks a lot more fun to platform in than 3D World.
We already had multiplayer in Super Mario 64 DS. I would've actually preferred multiplayer in Super Mario Galaxy-like levels, though I also wouldn't want a third Galaxy game either.
Panic Nintendo isn't known for innovation and new ideas, they need to get out the games to bump the mediocre sales.
H_Prestige
Banned
Please tell me you're joking.
Yes, I realize that this is an emulated screenshot, but the art assets and world design are what I'm referencing.
Is there anything more to that level than what is being shown? Because the 2-1 demo from 3DW obliterates that in scale and platforming areas.
jts
...hate me...
So you've seen all the levels in SM3DW?
There's more.
catstronaut
Member
I disagree. What you see there is mostly devoid of actual platforming challenges. It's a world to run through, making the occasional leap onto another huge slab of grass, not a world of precision jumping and interesting platform design. I don't think the early levels in 3D World will be much harder, but I do feel like they'll have a bit more actual platforming, and later levels will certainly have more platforming variety than that.
What you see there is a visual spectacle, but not actually any feat of interesting platforming design. It's elevated slabs of grass upon elevated slabs of grass. You're running much, much more than you're jumping.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Argument over, everyone go home
But really, wouldn't it be enough for the two to be equal in size, or close enough at least? Especially considering you have all this action going on with four players.
I've said this once, I'll say it again, 64 DS multiplayer had nothing to do with what's being done here. It was a versus mode, this is a single player "campaign" that can be fully played in co-op. No need to be disingenuous and say he only mentioned multiplayer, it's fairly obvious what people talk about when they say first 3D Mario with multiplayer.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
And 64 DS Multiplayer had very little platforming if I recall correctly, it was more focused on running around and attacking other for stars.
Probably. I just hope they don't require us to hit the top of the flag pole in every level, beat the game with every character *and* get all the star coins to unlock some final level.
You say that, but Honeyhive Galaxy was really slow-paced and boring. Easily Galaxy's worst world.
On the plus side, none of the footage where they hit the top of the flagpole shows it turning gold, so that's probably a good sign.
That's true, but it showed that multiplayer in a normal 3D Mario would also be possible and is not unheard of. I mean, Nintendo even had the concept of playing through the entire SM64 game with four players but scrapped it because of technical limitations.
Looking at Super Mario 3D World, it's not surprised that many feel disappointed. The scope of the levels just appears much more limited (Super Mario 3D Land is a good indication for this too). I am sure that the game will turn out great. For the passionate Nintendo gamer, Nintendo is just playing it way too safe at the moment with its sequels and I would not be surprised if sales will not pick up as Nintendo is hoping right now - there sales goals seem delusional.
Edit: And just to make sure: Super Mario 3D World together with Pikmin 3 are my most anticipated Wii U games. They are just not enough to make me buy the console. (But well, compared to my interest in the PS4 and XB1 lineup that's still a lot)
Honestly, I love Nintendo but I kind of hope that the consumers vote with their wallets and these safe sequels see a steep drop in sales as compared to previous entries. I'm growing very tired of Nintendo's almost psychotic adherence to old ideas at this point. Everything since the New Mario series has been just way too safe and boring, and I mean that about all of their main franchises.
Nintendo needs to innovate again to earn my purchase, and hardly any of their upcoming games seem to be doing that at all.
Nintendo needs to innovate again to earn my purchase, and hardly any of their upcoming games seem to be doing that at all.
Boss Man
Member
I don't understand the hate for this TBH. This looks like the sweet spot between NSMB and SMG to me. Granted, I never played 3D Land so that's likely the problem. I was not the greatest fan (didn't hate, just didn't appreciate the camera or waggle) of SMG.
Regardless, this game looks fantastic to me and it's weird to see that everyone is down on it. Was 3D Land bad?
Regardless, this game looks fantastic to me and it's weird to see that everyone is down on it. Was 3D Land bad?
No, 3D Land was very good... For a portable Mario game. There are much different expectations for a console 3D Mario game, which historically has tended to serve as a showcase for not only what the system can do but also the progression of 3D platforming as a genre. 3D World does not look like that type of game. It looks like an HD remaster of a portable game with multiplayer thrown in.
People want a follow up to Galaxy like it was to Sunshine and Sunshine was to 64. They got a follow up to 3DLand. When expectations don't match (more so since 3D World didn't have the same wow factor of Galaxy's first reveal), people tend to be disappointed. Combine the disappointment with a forum that was always updated with new posts everyday but no new information was given about the game. The hate will be amplified for the time being, until new trailers arrive and some will calm down and "hey, this actually looks fun!". Some will keep actively disliking the game, but that's the same for every game. So, pretty normal.
catstronaut
Member
Thinking of a concept and following through with it are two different things entirely. That's like saying "Yeah, I had the concept for an open-world game where you can do literally anything, but I scrapped it because of technical limitations and a lack of resources." Not trying to be snarky, but the idea of something and the actuality of it are never the same.
No, 3D Land was fantastic. A lot of people in this topic are disappointed because they think Nintendo is going to stick with the smaller levels and simpler designs of 3D Land, but that's absurd when you look at everything we've seen about the game so far, and think about how Nintendo had to use their resources to create an entirely new framework for 3D Land instead of being free to use all their time crafting unique, one-shot worlds.
People think that just because this is in the framework of a handheld game, that it's going to be beholden to handheld design. Which is ludicrous when you consider that every previous 3D Mario was beholden to 64's design, and managed to innovate heavily within that framework, or when you consider something like Kirby's Dreamland, an incredibly simple handheld game that was massively expanded in its console sequels.
The multiplayer in 64 DS consisted in players going around in open spaces running to get stars before the others, there was little in way of platforming and while fun for a while it wasn't very interesting. Designing these levels to accommodate both single and multiplayer is a very, very different design process and the fact that after 17 years they finally managed to reach their goal of designing a 3D Mario with co-op multiplayer is definitely worth of note.
Every single Mario since NSMBW has been challenging (even if 3D Land take a looong time to do so), I see no reason to think this one won't be.
catstronaut
Member
I think the fact that EAD is basically saying "this is the game we've wanted to make, that we've *always* wanted to make" is something that people should really take more seriously. These are people at the very top of game design; these are people who seemingly never miss the mark for fun and unique ideas.
metalslimer
Member
I'm sorry but if the game is really as easy as the levels shown here make out it will be a big disappointment. 3D Land being easy as shit until the 2nd half is not good gamedesign for me. Galaxy 2 was honestly perfect for me.
I don't doubt EAD Tokyo's talent to make a great game. Anyone who thinks this game will be actually bad is fooling themselves. I do think they are pushing the boundaries of making a game that appeal to everyone and sucking the difficultiy and some of the creativity along with it right out of the game
I don't doubt EAD Tokyo's talent to make a great game. Anyone who thinks this game will be actually bad is fooling themselves. I do think they are pushing the boundaries of making a game that appeal to everyone and sucking the difficultiy and some of the creativity along with it right out of the game
Galaxy 2 was a babby moad ez until world 6 though, and it wasn't until World S that I even saw a Game Over screen.
I'm not disagreeing that it's bad design, but it's not a problem exclusive to 3D Land.
3D Land's difficulty curve is its biggest problem in my opinion. In the end it redeems itself since half the game provides a fair challenge, but it takes too long to get interesting.
catstronaut
Member
I think it's great that Nintendo is trying to accommodate the entire spectrum of gamers. The challenge was definitely there toward the end of 3D Land, and the gradual ramping up meant Nintendo could go farther than they normally do. I don't think people appreciate how massively difficult these games are for new gamers. I grew up on 2D Mario games, and even those were incredibly hard for me at the time.
But as far as I can tell, NSMBWii/U and 3D Land are, by the end, much harder than traditional Mario difficulty. Galaxy and Galaxy 2 are an absolute cakewalk.
metalslimer
Member
Besides The Perfect Run I don't see how you could run out of lives anyway. Game over wasnt even a punishment. But each level was more creative than the last and I feel like EAD Tokyo may have exhausted a lot of ideas through G1 and G2. 3D World looks fun, but the doesn't seem nearly as creative. I think people are off base with the scope criticism because the Galaxy games scope was quite small
Isn't that why 2d Mario games exist then? Not every game has to be playable for every single person. Some people will never truly get 3d gaming. And I feel like 8-10 million sales is perfectly acceptable. I feel like Nintendo is at their worst when overthinking things like this and leads them to make weird design decisions like in Other M
I think it's not going over as a very big deal because in those 17 years, people that the 4-player mode would've appealed to no longer find it appealing. I know I couldn't convince my friends to come over and play a Mario game, but they now have kids of their own that might like it.
I'm glad you speak for the whole world on this subject.
Making a 4 player coop 3d platforming game vs single player involves compromises. As someone who plays SP only in mario games, I'm with you: SMG1&2 were pitch perfect for me.
People shitting on the galaxy games just to try and drive hype for World make come off as fanboy-ish or shill-ish. Maybe when 3d world actually comes out, and we see these amazing levels that are being theorized, yeah then we can re-evaluate Galaxies. Until then, Super Mario 3d World does not compare to SMG1&2 as a single player game.
Local coop on the other hand in SM3DW looks awesome.