This is an unfair argument - the FF entries don't have much by way of continuity. The KH fanbase continuously argues over the most excruciating minutia and seems to be dominated by shippers.
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Is Kingdom Hearts really all that confusing?
- Thread starter Sats
- Start date
This is an unfair argument - the FF entries don't have much by way of continuity. The KH fanbase continuously argues over the most excruciating minutia and seems to be dominated by shippers.
PshycoNinja
Member
Oh yes it does, and they do argue with each otherthey just aren't nearly as vicious as other fanbases (like FF). The diehards are all in one faction which explains why they don't argue. lol
No not really. GAF just has detractors and the actual fans. Go to any real fansite (like maybe KHInsider?) and you'll see that the fanbase is pretty tight-nit. The only things fans debate is where the series is headed and how it will all end.
Edit:
They do and that's what drives the fanbase and the topics on the lore. KH fans live to debate about that minutia because if they're right it changes elements of where the story may head.
Kind of like how Star Wars fans debate the smallest details. Everyone is in the same "faction" but have different theories about what it all means for the end game. In the case for KH fans like myself, Kingdom Hearts 3.
This is also very true. The KH community knows their stuff and outside of some theories for upcoming games, there isn't really any dissent on the foundations of the plot.
Saw the Gametrailers timeline explanation.
52 minutes not counting the 4 ad breaks.
The first 10 minutes passes on the basic plot of wach series and then they go into detail.
It is impressive how LITTLE of Disney it is mentioned besides Yen Sid and Mickey.
Also very obvious to see every design to see how the character designs for the main characters have become less and less disney-y after the time, notably visible if you compare the shoes size.
It is all about keyblades and a heart shaped moon.
And the plan B is to take out the Disney Princess hearts.... but this is only mentioned for like 10 seconds on the ONE HOUR video =P
That is because how little Nomura gives a FUCK to disney.
He only cares about HIS characters and not about the REAL MEANING OF EXISTENCE OF THE SERIES ><
52 minutes not counting the 4 ad breaks.
The first 10 minutes passes on the basic plot of wach series and then they go into detail.
It is impressive how LITTLE of Disney it is mentioned besides Yen Sid and Mickey.
Also very obvious to see every design to see how the character designs for the main characters have become less and less disney-y after the time, notably visible if you compare the shoes size.
It is all about keyblades and a heart shaped moon.
And the plan B is to take out the Disney Princess hearts.... but this is only mentioned for like 10 seconds on the ONE HOUR video =P
That is because how little Nomura gives a FUCK to disney.
He only cares about HIS characters and not about the REAL MEANING OF EXISTENCE OF THE SERIES ><
You're not seeing the bigger picture. Fansites are where the like-minded people gather. I'm not talking about GAF either when I say factions. Like I said, it's the die-hards that put the handhelds on par with the mainline titles and who tend to argue as such whenever someone says they want to skip the handheld titles. The fact that you and I are having this back and forth proves that KH fans argue. lol
Except that isn't true in the slightest. People have a hard time accepting it, but Nomura has had a lot of this story in his mind for a long, looooong time. There are things in the first Kingdom Hearts that are hinted at which he won't expand on until, like, in Birth By Sleep. And ever since the introduction of the Organization XIII, there have been clear hints that there's more to them than meets the eye (I mean, they are looking for something in Castle Oblivion in Chain of Memories, yet to fully understand what Castle Oblivion even is and what they are looking for, you need to play Birth By Sleep, a game that was release 6 years afterwards). Nomura pretty clearly hints at a lot of stuff during even the earliest games and none of the follow-ups to those hints feel like he's just making shit up.
I mean, sure, realistically speaking of course he hasn't had ALL of the smallest details thought out 10 years in advance, but he has had some rough ideas of a lot of things. There's some flexibility to some aspect, so people like Axel have likely gotten a bigger role after people came to like him so much, but I really do believe that he has had the whole Master Xehanort -> his incarnations & evil master plan with Org XIII and the Ven/Sora/Roxas deal more or less thought out ever since Chain of Memories, when he got the green light to do sequels to Kingdom Hearts after the first game was so successful..
Birth By Sleep is comparable to a mainline release in every single aspect. Probably even MORE important a game story-wise than the first game, at this point. And while DDD is a bit rushed, it doesn't have much to be ashamed about in comparison to mainline releases. CoM is pretty important too. Days and ReCoded can kind of be passed, if you don't want to go through the effort.
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
In that case, I'll throw in my two cents - I hope Riku gets the Kingdom Key if Sora does end up inheriting Master Eraqus's keyblade. I think their primary keyblades should, well, look like keys. Also, Fenrir is best because it actually looks like a key and a blade.
Or perhaps you just have a hard time believing that, yes, he has been making a good portion of the stuff up as he goes along. It's part of the creative process, and it's very definitely there. The plot would have been much more compact and focused if he was working with a clear end goal in mind - instead, all these spinoffs are setting up an enormous amount of loose ends that are going to be pretty difficult to tie together in a satisfying fashion.
There isn't dissent on how the plot goes, no. I'm a diehard myself so I know all the ins and outs. But the KH community does argue about having to play the handheld titles to understand the gist of the story. The diehards are the ones who push the handheld titles as being just as important if not more so than the main games. See the guy who posted above me:
And there you go. My point is proven. KH fans will bicker about the handheld games, they always will. Not about the story, but about their being necessitous to just understand the story.
that's actually pretty interesting. Definitely not a fan of whatever that is Riku became. I'm not sure what's to blame either. This series needs to be more Disney and less other stuff. Kind of depressing the way they're taking it.
The problem with Kingdom Hearts' story is that it often does shit "just because," and there's no real pre-planned path for the story. The whole "Ansem" shitstorm from Kingdom Hearts to Kingdom Hearts 2 is a great example.
I can accept that Xeanhort would pretend to be Ansem, although he'd have to be one hell of a petty asshole to try and tarnish the name of a guy who is supposed to be imprisoned forever. I cannot accept that he'd write fucking personal journals and sign them as Ansem. It makes no sense because he would have no idea the pages of his journal would be scattered by his experiments. It's obvious the writer came up with the "fake Ansem" idea long after writing the first game.
I can accept that Xeanhort would pretend to be Ansem, although he'd have to be one hell of a petty asshole to try and tarnish the name of a guy who is supposed to be imprisoned forever. I cannot accept that he'd write fucking personal journals and sign them as Ansem. It makes no sense because he would have no idea the pages of his journal would be scattered by his experiments. It's obvious the writer came up with the "fake Ansem" idea long after writing the first game.
There's no need to wait on anything. The original KH team is not KH team anymore, they don't really have much to do with KH games nowadays. Nomura has passed that title to the Osaka team after they've proven themselves to handle the franchise well. The SQEX Osaka team has been confirmed to be working on KHIII and have most likely worked on KHIII for about a year already (at some capacity, probably mostly just pre-dev given that the tools haven't quite been done yet & dev kits aren't final), ever since Dream Drop Distance was finished.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
i dont know if you noticed, but Sats "fixed" the title of thread to "Is Kingdom Hearts really all that confusing"
so, in this case, Sats is the one that is confused. At least, that's what that implies to me...
of course its presumptuous. How am I supposed to know anything about what he thinks? You can say anyone is presumptuous when they have an opinion about anything, it doesn't mean that the point isn't valid.
and i did put "intricate" in quotes, so that's not actually my belief that KH is really that great.
i never claimed such a thing. when i initially read the post, i thought i saw a "not" in the last sentence. The way the whole first post was phrased coupled with the title resulted in a comprehension failure. sorry.
hey man, just because my benefit of doubt allows me to fill in plot holes on my own doesn't mean that my enjoyment/understanding of the story is invalid.
Disney could make a movie. Never meant to imply that Square Enix would do that.
The only thing that confused me about KH was how Vanitas looked like Sora. Thanks to the KH Timeline though, that was cleared up....
...Wait, I completely forgot again. How'd it go?
Xehanort split Ventus into two halfs, a light and dark side, to create the X-blade. However, the light side, the Ventus that we know, suffers from a shattered heart or something? Like, his body couldn't withstand the pressure of Xehanort's experiment on him.... So then, while Ventus' body was recovering, SORA'S SPIRIT/HEART somehow finds Ventus while he's in this state and agrees to help him heal... And this was all done before Sora was even born.
How in the hell Sora was able to do that, I haven't the slightest clue. The idea behind that realm where hearts/spirits float around is really loose.
In any case, because Sora, or a piece of Sora's heart/spirit(?) was healing Ventus, the dark side that was split from earlier now had a form to take, as if it were feeding on Sora's power like a parasite. And this all happens because for some reason, the dark side couldn't take on the same form as Ventus (the light side).?
WAT? Someone help me out here =/
...Wait, I completely forgot again. How'd it go?
Xehanort split Ventus into two halfs, a light and dark side, to create the X-blade. However, the light side, the Ventus that we know, suffers from a shattered heart or something? Like, his body couldn't withstand the pressure of Xehanort's experiment on him.... So then, while Ventus' body was recovering, SORA'S SPIRIT/HEART somehow finds Ventus while he's in this state and agrees to help him heal... And this was all done before Sora was even born.
How in the hell Sora was able to do that, I haven't the slightest clue. The idea behind that realm where hearts/spirits float around is really loose.
In any case, because Sora, or a piece of Sora's heart/spirit(?) was healing Ventus, the dark side that was split from earlier now had a form to take, as if it were feeding on Sora's power like a parasite. And this all happens because for some reason, the dark side couldn't take on the same form as Ventus (the light side).?
WAT? Someone help me out here =/
Apeopleman
Member
PshycoNinja
Member
Okay if that's what you're saying then yes you are the outlier. The handheld titles are extremely important story-wise to the entire plot of the series. You wouldn't really get why Sora is in a capsule in KHII if you didn't play CoM. And you won't understand 3D unless you play II, 358/2 Days and BbS.
I am fairly certain you will be utterly lost in KHIII unless you play the other titles, thus why they are making 1.5 and 2.5.
It's all SE Production Division 1 to me - the company structure is even more convoluted than the KH storyline for crying out loud. Now that they are reorganizing and 'putting focus on mobile', heaven knows what kind of structure will result.
PaperFlame
Member
I played all of the games, the story is easy to follow. It's not bad; it's entertaining to me. I enjoy the story a lot, and I can't wait for kingdom hearts 3.
PshycoNinja
Member
You and I are best friends now.
You aren't good at reading are you? I'm a diehard and know the story in and out, I said it already. The handheld titles don't do anything except set up for the next mainline game that comes after them. CoM is easily missed and I can say that because I understood the gist of what happened after Roxas is explained at the end of KH2's tutorial. Why is that? Because CoM didn't do much except introduce Org. XIII and set up for KH2 - KH2 itself could easily have done without CoM's influence. I've played all the handheld titles since, and my opinion remains the same, BBS, DDD, Re:Coded, 358/2 Days, they all can be skipped and the player will understand what's happening in KH3 if it's done well and they're explained in a few cutscenes. 1.5 is doing as much. 2.5 will do the same.
You are further proving my point that KH fans do indeed bicker, and fervently.
He said the plot is easy to follow, and I agree with him. So long as one sticks to the themes of good vs bad, light vs dark, there's not much to get confused about. Seeing as we all agree about this, why are you so adamant that people will be confused in KH3 if they haven't played the handheld titles?
You hear that guys? KH story is some next level high brow shit.
Coffee Dog
Banned
The story isnt confusing at all if you play the games, at least until dream drop where it loses its shit
You know, I was following the story pretty well before I hit 3D.
But then
suddenly timetravel, clones, Riku is a dream eater and that is okay, Roxas again, Axel can keyblade too and hey look here's kairi.
Sometimes Nomura should read the plotlines aloud for himself before publishing.
It's mostly the way information is withheld or presented in the games that can confuse someone. The plot info itself is pretty straightforward, if sometimes ridiculous.
That's not true in the slightest.
Nomura has pretty much had a plan for how the story advances ever since the first game became a success. He had some plans for the future even during KH1 (the secret ending hinting at all kinds of concepts that are explored in future installments didn't just pop out of nowhere), but because KH was still an unproven franchise, he didn't hint too much about what's to come because that would've been pointless when he didn't even know if he could ever explore those ideas further. After it became a success, he started thinking more & more about how the franchise would advance and has had a lot of the story thought out in advance (not the small details, but stuff like the existence of Ven and his ultimate fate, Master Xehanort & his plan). Sure, some stuff has been more in the level of very basic ideas, but others are stuff that he's been actively building up to.
He's clearly had a very good idea where the story is going and has been building up to that from Chain of Memories onwards, although until KHII was released of course they couldn't be sure if the success of the first game was just a one-time thing, so he wrapped it up pretty neatly by the end of II as he still wasn't sure if he could realize all his plans.
Thr information is just sudden and out of nowhere, and before you have time to re-calibrate what this means for the story, they throw another curveball at you.
It is understandable indeed, but that does not mean it makes sense.
Still love the series to death, though.
Thr information is just sudden and out of nowhere, and before you have time to re-calibrate what this means for the story, they throw another curveball at you.
It is understandable indeed, but that does not mean it makes sense.
Still love the series to death, though.
What I really like about Nomura is that he is under no illusions that KH is supposed to be worthy of Shakespeare. I mean that in a good way. KH is the best plot a game borne of crossing universes can give. It's serious and convoluted yet silly and fun as well.
The series is becoming increasingly less about Disney and more about being another anime-thing that japanese kids will play along with their narutos and bleaches.
You'll be fine. 1.5 and 2.5 will catch you up on everything, assuming 2.5 includes BBS's plot relevant info. DDD has quite the mindfuck, but know that in the end all it really does is SPOILER DON'T CLICK UNLESS YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN A NON-SPOILER-ISH WAY
explain the true villain and their motives.
The Osaka team is a completely separate entity because... you know, they are based in Osaka unlike the rest of SQEX that is in Tokyo... I think that's actually one of the reasons why they have remained relatively unaffected by XIV 2.0 and have remained so productive during the last few years while a lot of other projects have suffered (Versus XIII/XV among others). The Tokyo teams have been affected by XIV 2.0 while Osaka Team has been able to freely work on whatever they've been working on.
Tokyo is kind of a different deal because they don't really have teams per se, from what i've understood, but people are moved around between projects as they are needed. If someone comes up with a new project that gets greenlit, he will build up a new team from people who are free to work on new projects. KH team was only KH team because the same people, more or less, kept working on the franchise for a long time so they weren't being thrown around between other projects (as much).
But anyway, Nomura said in a post-DDD interview that he considers the Osaka team as the KH team nowadays and moving onwards they would be responsible with the franchise. There's nothing confusing about that. The status of FFXV's development will have very little affect on KHIII's development, especially as Nomura has his trustworthy co-director helping him.
And I'm not sure if putting more focus on mobiles means anything to their PD1. Even as they are releasing more mobile games, none of those have been developed by their internal teams AFAIK. There have perhaps been some creative people attached to those projects (art, concepts, composers), but otherwise from what I can tell their internal development teams have still been mostly working on console/PC level stuff (tied up to big projects like Save FFXIV From Total Catastrophe, Dragon Quest X, Toriyama's Waifu Saga XIII, and hence somewhat unable to work on much else).
man this is awesome!
Bleh, that's so untrue that you should be embarrassed of making such false statements. Last I checked, like, 80% of the stories of the last few games were basically about going through Disney storylines, with the remaining 20% being spread out to the beginnings & endings of each world + the last world with no Disney.
Deified Data
Banned
I dropped out after KH2, so who knows.
I'm invested in the MGS-verse and figure it's at least as convoluted as KH is. While some information comes and goes, actually playing the games is a good way of recalling some of the small stuff. Sometimes knowledge just lies dormant until you need to access it.
I'm invested in the MGS-verse and figure it's at least as convoluted as KH is. While some information comes and goes, actually playing the games is a good way of recalling some of the small stuff. Sometimes knowledge just lies dormant until you need to access it.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well, the fact that they separate so many games in various different platforms does not help matter. Seriously, what were they thinking?
Although, "all over the place" might just be an apt term to describe how the series develops
Also, at first the whole concept of Final Fantasy x Disney was very strong, at least at the 1st KH, and I admit, I was intrigued. But then the whole Organization XIII started to show up along with alternate realities, shadows, spiked hair, conspiracies, dual/triple/quadriple personalities, etc etc etc and so I realized hey: "Where's the Disney charm?" It was all sidelined in favor to all those "edgy/dark" stories. Disney is like an insignificant sidequest now, rather than the main plot.
Which, in my opinion, is rather unfortunate.
Although, "all over the place" might just be an apt term to describe how the series develops
Also, at first the whole concept of Final Fantasy x Disney was very strong, at least at the 1st KH, and I admit, I was intrigued. But then the whole Organization XIII started to show up along with alternate realities, shadows, spiked hair, conspiracies, dual/triple/quadriple personalities, etc etc etc and so I realized hey: "Where's the Disney charm?" It was all sidelined in favor to all those "edgy/dark" stories. Disney is like an insignificant sidequest now, rather than the main plot.
Which, in my opinion, is rather unfortunate.
What am I reading? This writing is M Night Shyamalan multiplied by 999,999,999.
Crimsonlink
Member
IMO it all went to crap with 358/2 and DDD made it worse.
KH1 set up the premise of Kingdom Hearts and the Heartless.
KH Chain of Memories did the story in between 1 and 2 and dealt with Castle Oblivion.
KH 2 was a continuation of Sora's journey and a fight against the new enemies the Nobodies and the continued fight against the Heartless.
Then 358/2 comes out of the blue to mess everything up with Xion. Roxas's story was the good part but Xion had to come and mess it up. Still confused as to how that happened and it increased the creep level in the series as Xion was technically a fusion of Kairi, Sora and Ventus.
BBS brought the story back on track with the Keyblade trio and explained what exactly happened in KH 1 or why things happened for that matter.
DDD brought time travel into the mix and screwed things up again.
Coded was just all over the place with the corrupted data.
KH1 set up the premise of Kingdom Hearts and the Heartless.
KH Chain of Memories did the story in between 1 and 2 and dealt with Castle Oblivion.
KH 2 was a continuation of Sora's journey and a fight against the new enemies the Nobodies and the continued fight against the Heartless.
Then 358/2 comes out of the blue to mess everything up with Xion. Roxas's story was the good part but Xion had to come and mess it up. Still confused as to how that happened and it increased the creep level in the series as Xion was technically a fusion of Kairi, Sora and Ventus.
BBS brought the story back on track with the Keyblade trio and explained what exactly happened in KH 1 or why things happened for that matter.
DDD brought time travel into the mix and screwed things up again.
Coded was just all over the place with the corrupted data.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
That Google Doc is mindblowing O______O
Well, then you should read the Duckroll thread and freshen yourself up. This isn't some hotshot group that sprung out of nowhere. Being based on Osaka has little to do with it - rather, they seem to have been THE KH team since KH2, which is a tad longer than 'nowadays'.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19360800&postcount=1
Apart from the main Disney villains having a part in the kidnapping of the Princesses of Heart in the first KH game, the stories during the actual worlds were still just that as well, filler. And games like Birth By Sleep still made the Disney worlds kind of integral to the growth/plot development of each of the three main characters (as in, they interacted with the Disney characters and were influenced by what they said and did).
dark_inferno
Member
For a Disney meets FF game it has a damn confusing story.
The google doc was good but some parts are still confusing as hell.
And i think the look made it more interesting for young people. But this story... made it not accessible.
The google doc was good but some parts are still confusing as hell.
And i think the look made it more interesting for young people. But this story... made it not accessible.
Uhh... I know all of that, how does that contradict with anything I wrote? I didn't say that they were a new team, just that the Osaka team is separate from the Tokyo offices (duh) and as such they aren't necessarily affected too much by whatever shenanigans are going on at their Tokyo offices, and that they are the KH team NOWADAYS who have been confirmed to be working on Kingdom Hearts III as we speak. Simple as that. I was originally responding to your post about how KHIII won't be focused on before FFXV is done, which is totally wrong as the only thing connecting the two projects nowadays is Nomura, but as he has co-directors for both projects, one can advance while Nomura is working on the other.
A completely separate team is working on FFXV at their Tokyo offices (which is, partly, made of the original Tokyo-based KH Team). While years ago Nomura said KHIII would have to wait until Versus XIII is done, we've come a long way since then and things have changed. After that, he has let Osaka team handle ReCoM, BBS & DDD and been so satisfied & happy with the results that he's actually gone on record to say that he doesn't consider his Tokyo team as the KH team anymore and how that title has been passed to Osaka team (for the time being).
I think this point is worth noting. I can't think of too many series that even bother to keep continuity for that many entries without skips or reboots.
You were using one point to argue the other, therefore I responded to one point and not the other. The logic train works. Returning to your original point, I very much doubt that the Osaka office is shielded significantly by geography; rather, I think it is manpower concerns. I don't profess to know much if anything, but I have a sneaking suspicion that either SE Osaka is going on a huge hiring spree soon or KH3 will have to wait.