Why would a quote like that imply at all that the roster will be smaller than Brawl's?
Super Smash Bros Wii U and 3DS: Info Collection - Dojo, Mega Man and Trailer! 2014!
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
He did mention character cuts but he didn't explicitly state what those are and nor will he until the time comes.
It's a wait and see approach.
Sakurai can talk as much as he wants about this "same roster" business but until I see physical evidence of the perceived console characters I remain skeptical.
Previous interviews had always been vague on the roster. Usually meaning a numerical value. Same number of. Same amount of. Same library of. Same roster of.
It isn't really indicative that all characters in both versions will be the same.
If I am to be convinced of such a thing, show me the evidence of such in a physical format that I can see in the game itself.
For these variety of terms from different perspectives can mean completely different things.
TL;DR: Show me screenshots of characters in both versions to close the case. Or simply state the models are not ready to be shown.
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Limitations were stated to be due to characters that have multiple models tied to their character files. Ergo Ice Climbers, Olimar, etc.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
I don't like tripping, but it's in the game so it's there for a reason. Just trying to figure out what that is.
A deterrence against dash spamming that also encourages aerial combat seems as likely as any.
It's completely impossible to stay in the air 99% of the time. It's generally not a good idea to be in the air at all in competitive play. Most characters don't even have the air mobility, let alone the amount of jumps, to stay in the air. If he wanted more air play, you'd give the characters more options to stay in the air; not weaken the ground movement.
"Dash spamming" is and never was a problem. Not even in casual play. It was something people used to open someone up in competitive play. And its actual term is dashdancing.
As it is, Sakurai already made it "harder" to do in Brawl as the window is much smaller. Tripping, thus, was not used to deter that at all.
He gave his reasoning for it already, he said he likes random shit to happen and tripping was, to him, like items are: randomness thrown in. There's no other rhyme or reason for it. He thought it was funny, but everyone else didn't.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Was also used to signify the lead character(who has the most kills) in timed matches. And to the give the losing characters a slight advantage. Competitive players are not fond of this. And rightly so.
What? Tripping wasn't based on who was in the lead or who was behind.
You're thinking of the mechanic where the game gives you a free Final Smash if you're behind. Which never comes into play in competitive play because of the stock count.
"Competitive elitists" what the heck? Can you just call them competitive players? How would you like it if someone said, "casual elitist"? No one in the competitive scene forces the way they play on anyone.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
What? Tripping wasn't based on who was in the lead or who was behind.
"Competitive elitists" what the heck? Can you just call them competitive players? How would you like it if someone said, "casual elitist"? No one in the competitive scene forces the way they play on anyone.
It was in timed matches most of the time. Or seemed to. If you played with stocks it didn't add up.
Tripping is more a nuisance then it is a meaningful mechanic.
And I edited my comment. Sorry if I came off as rude.
It kinda did come off as rude, but thank you for editing it.
Anyway, no, tripping is proven as being 100% random. The game has been modded so much that it was easily found that it was just a really low rate of chance of happening you could set to 0 and you would no longer trip. It, if I recall, had a 1% chance of happening on regular terrain and on icicle terrain (only Summit and PS2 transformation) it became a 3% chance of happening.
Still, 1% isn't small as tripping occurs fairly often in tournament sets in Brawl. And it's definitely not something you can plan around at all. If Sakurai wanted more air combat, he should have encouraged it through more options in the air vs removing or weakening options on the ground.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Interesting. So it did have a activation value.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
It just occurred to me: is this the first crossover game with CAPCOM characters that doesn't include Ryu?
SenorArdilla
Member
Tripping is alright with me if it's contained (Diddy's bananas or attacks that can cause tripping). I just think of it as another status effect. Random tripping should be removed though. It's annoying and punishes you for running.
How would you feel if characters would randomly get muscle cramps while swimming? Or if they randomly get light-headed and tumbled when they jumped?
Shadow Hog
Member
At least tripping is completely axed in Smash 4.
I do wonder how the competitive community will take to Smash 4 overall, honestly. I don't see the 3DS version getting too much limelight (you'd have to special order a modded 3DS that lets you record video output, and then, who'd be the one recording? Which player, or would it be from some kind of "spectator" mode on a third unit?), but the Wii U one, maybe...
I do wonder how the competitive community will take to Smash 4 overall, honestly. I don't see the 3DS version getting too much limelight (you'd have to special order a modded 3DS that lets you record video output, and then, who'd be the one recording? Which player, or would it be from some kind of "spectator" mode on a third unit?), but the Wii U one, maybe...
If you ignore the part in bold it's easy to interpret this as the 3DS being limited in its ability to render all characters with their current designs.
But how does that final statement not sound like they're going to have a hard time including the same amount of characters? The whole article sounds like an attempt to sugar coat that we won't be seeing a huge 40+ character roster and to curb expectations.
They don't even have time to update Mario. They put an accessory in the game from an 8 year old platformer from two generations ago over something from one of the 7+ Mario platformers there have been since then.
I Really hope we end up getting a game that's the best of both worlds from Melee and Brawl, with a much more balanced roster, it would be great to watch tournaments with a quicker game and a large variety of characters and mechanics.
I'd love it if you could pick whichever character you liked and be viable playing against others at the same skill level, but that's a massive pipe dream with the size of the smash roster and the sheer variety of mechanics they all have, I'd love for their to be at most 3 tiers though.
Who's to say they haven't updated mario? They shouldn't just replace moves or characters because there's a newer thing out, FLUDD is an interesting move, it just needs to actually be useful and not OP/UP and, honestly, we can't tell that yet.
BlakImpaler
Member
It doesn't include Ryu cause this isn't a crossover game.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Can you explain to me in great detail what "reduce some characters to a certain degree" means?
Because he says there will be the same library of characters. Could reduce not be toward certain mechanics of characters, and not the characters entirely?
I think that in itself is hard to say.
Here's the way I look at it:
Brawl competitive players will easily move away from it and transfer over to Smash 4 simply because of one thing: random tripping is gone. There will be no reason to play Brawl when Smash 4 comes out; unless somehow Smash 4 is worse than Brawl as a competitive game (which would honestly shock me lol). You'd have to do a lot worse than tripping with Brawl to make that happen though.
Melee competitive players will be skeptical because a lot of them were burned off from Brawl and how that game played competitively. I'm sure a few will give it a try and if it's actually a good competitive game mechanically, maybe some will move onto it. Otherwise, if it's not a very good competitive game on the mechanical side then I don't really see the Melee competitive players moving to it.
If Smash 4 was just Melee without L-Canceling and wavedashing I think most would be happy. It's up in the air at this point.
And Smash 64 competitive players are always going to stick with that game lmao. That game is just TOO good.
Can I explain that statement when taken out context? No. It's a fairly ambiguous statement, which was also translated from Japanese. When taking the following sentence into consideration, as well as the rest of the article, it seems to translate to referring to quantity, rather than rendering certain characters on 3DS. He was originally asked if we'd see all of the characters from Melee and Brawl return, and he immediately went on defense and cited 3DS as a reason to curb expectations.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
In melee it seemed to happen at least once every other match, maybe more. Gravity is too fast to really have time to react to it, and even if it wasn't, tons of attacks take place in the air anyhow.
I really don't think people realize how much space is available on a 3DS cart, especially without the huge CGI cutscenes that took up so much space on Brawl's disc. Characters like Olimar might be trickier to implement due to screen size, but the size of the cart should be a non-issue.
NeonZ
Member
The main issue is that there's no transcript of the original interviews, just various articles with translated Sakurai quotes in the middle of texts which aren't direct quotes. This other quote makes it sound like most characters from Brawl are staying and his apologize is more about being unable to bring back all characters cut -before- it.
http://www.nowgamer.com/news/197055...t_have_time_to_bring_all_characters_back.html
I think we're going to see the same thing happen that we did with brawl - that is, the competitive scene will, at first, desperately try to migrate to SSB4. If it works, it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't. I don't think they'll try to force it for as long as they did with brawl but they'll try. Everyone in the scene is dying for some kind of update. It's the only way to ensure the survival of the community in the long run.
I say this every few weeks but fuckin aye, I really wish Nintendo would just put out an HD Smash collection with decent netcode. It'd be cheap, pretty much print money, and extend the longevity of competitive melee for another decade (though it'd get smaller every year if SSB4 delivers). Hell, even tweak it if you have to and get rid of some of those infinites, whatever it takes! Such a game would do more for Wii U than the entire current holiday lineup combined.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Possible. But remember some characters weren't entirely unique in design. Cloned skillsets with a different model and sound file and what have you.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Yes it is.
Brainiac 8
Member
Correct.
However, it's a crossover of Nintendo properties. Mega Man is showing up because Nintendo asked for him.
With that in mind, why would Ryu appear? It's not a Nintendo/Capcom crossover game any more than Brawl was a Nintendo/Konomi/Sega crossover.
In other words, Ryu wouldn't and shouldn't appear...unless for some god awful reason Nintendo wanted him to.
Choppasmith
Member
Nope, Alpha 3 for the GBA I think.
Kinda related, but CvS2 came out for the Gamecube too.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Street Fighter 2 Turbo and Street Fighter Alpha 3 for Game Boy Advance?
To me that article highlights my viewpoint on things pretty well. It's going to have less characters. They're limited on time, and the 3DS is probably a big factor. They have approximately the same amount of development time as Brawl but have to make two games. Probably explains why few characters will have new features. They don't have time to redesign old characters.
No "clone" character in Brawl is simply a cloned skillset with a different character model and voice. They're all designed differently and have unique moves, and every move has a unique animation and different gameplay properties.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Right. We'll need further clarification from Sakurai.
Weltall Zero
Member
Any influence on results caused by luck or random happenstance can be ironed out by simply having more matches. If this sort of thing is truly random, than it isn't more likely to strike any given player. So, over a large number of matches, any statistical deviation caused by random chance is reduced to being insignificant.
In something like a round-robin tournament, where every player plays every other player at least once, one or two KOs caused by unpreventable circumstances isn't going to have any major effect on any player's overall standing. So, a random chance of something going wrong doesn't do anything to prevent skilled players from rising to the top.
Besides, the vast majority of item-related KOs are entirely preventable, and thus fall under the purview of player skill. If someone attacks a capsule sitting on the ground and it explodes and KOs them, than that is entirely their own fault. They just didn't have enough skill.
I played hundred or thousands of matchs in Melee and Brawl with items on (often at high spawn rates), and I rarely die to random unpreventable accidents like that. Saying that they happen every other match is just confirmation bias. The few times that it does occur become over-exaggerated in peoples' mind's eye. There are also cases where people blame their own mistakes on the game. Blaming the game and its items is a way for people to side-step their own fault and lack of skill.
Having an element of random chance is perfectly fair. All sports and competitions have to deal with unpredictable elements to various degrees. As long as the random chance is unbiased, and affects all competitors equally, then no one has any right to claim that it hurts the competitiveness of the game. To go back to the Poker example, it is always possible for someone to draw a pair of Aces. That doesn't change the fact that skilled players will consistently beat unskilled players over enough games.
I think that any claim that items are "unfair" or "reduce skillful play" ring quite hollow. They don't. They merely change the nature of the game to something that some people may be uncomfortable with. It is fine to not like a certain variant of a game. But that doesn't make that variant "unfair" or not reward skillful play.
Shadow Hog
Member
Actually, speaking of SFIV, I'm surprised Hyper SFIV isn't coming to Wii U. Guess the 3DS version bombed or something...?
Immaculate
Banned
3DS version sold/shipped over a million copies iirc
BlakImpaler
Member
Definitely should've clarified a little more. Smash isn't a Capcom/Nintendo crossover game :\
Or is has to do with the cost of doing such a port, and the perceived profit margins given the current userbase. Really I don't think any 3rd party developer in their right minds should touch this system unless their game is being financed by Nintendo (Sega and Platinum) because this thing is a mess right now and it is Nintendo's responsibility to fix it.
Ever wondered how Mewtwo works in comp. play? Here you go
He only went Mewtwo game 1 but he got really far into the tournament with just him apparently. Placed 13th.
The mobility and tricks he has, man, so cool.
He only went Mewtwo game 1 but he got really far into the tournament with just him apparently. Placed 13th.
The mobility and tricks he has, man, so cool.
Problem there? A round-robin tournament doesn't make sense when you have like 500-600 entrants. That would just take far too long, and is unreasonable if you're sharing a venue with other games.
...What?
Unless there is a calculated way to determine where and when an item will appear on the "Low" setting, there's too much that is "left to chance". It's not like the game gives you a heads-up (a la when a car is coming in Onett) to showcase that an Item is getting ready to appear. It just does. A Bob-Omb/Explosive Capsule could randomly appear in the midst of two opponents, and if one or both of them hits it while an attack was intended for its receiver...where is the skill there?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I know it wasn't Street Fighter but Ryu was in Tatsunoko Vs Capcom and that was a Wii exclusive. That's probably his latest appearance on a Nintendo console after SFIV 3DS.
BigEvilTurtle
Banned
Why would the 3DS throttle the roster size of the Wii U if there's no cross-platform play? Sure, they could share the same pool of characters, but to countervail the 3DS limitations, couldn't some of the characters just have a slightly more limited moveset in ONLY the 3DS version?
It doesn't make sense to me for the 3DS version to hinder the Wii U version. Especially sans cross-platform play
It doesn't make sense to me for the 3DS version to hinder the Wii U version. Especially sans cross-platform play
Whiskeymatt
Member
As long as the game is relatively balanced, combos exist again, and the absurd recovery ability of every character is toned down from Brawl the competitive community will surely embrace Smash 4. While stuff like wavedashing and L-cancelling would certainly be appreciated they're not necessary for Smash 4 to be a great competitive game. Hell, I wouldn't object to L-cancelling being removed/staying out as long as the landing frames for aerials are balanced better.
You don't need that many matches to iron out statistical deviations. There are plenty of tournament structures that have been used to deal with that exact issue, such as the Swiss system. Besides, I am still not talking about competitive tournaments with my arguments. I have little expectation that the competitive Smash scene is going to change based off my opinions.
I just finished addressing that exact scenario. That scenario is a) statistically unbiased (it doesn't favor either player, and even if one player benefits that benefit will even out over multiple matches) and b) rather uncommon. That exact event isn't skill based, but it is the only scenario I have seen someone put forward that doesn't involve player skill. The existence of that possible event doesn't preclude player skill from determining the winner of the contest, either.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Hey, I wouldn't mind. If they ever went with two Capcom characters then he already has the moveset done.
Obviously talking what-ifs.
Oh yeah, let's tone down the recoveries of Mario, Link, Ivysaur, Olimar, Bowser, DK, Ness, Lucas, Sheik or Wolf!
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Oh yeah, let's tone down the recoveries of Mario, Link, Ivysaur, Olimar, Bowser, DK, Ness, Lucas, Sheik or Wolf!
Bitches can't be handlin' my Vine Whip.
Red Rudolph
Member
Nooooo no no no. No. If there are two Capcom characters, the second one had better be a Monster Hunter, or this guy is going psycho. Ryu's been in enough fighters.
Green Mamba
Member
Monster Hunter's creators expressly forbid the franchise from being used in Marvel vs Capcom for characters, why would they have a different opinion here?
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Because SSB is better than MvC could ever hope to be, clearly.